Spanish OOB32 and OOB33 v.11 (2018)

[Pibwl]

Spanish Republic OOB32

As often, I didn't mean to go deep into artillery, but I've found an interesting site http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...Artilleria.htm... It seems well researched and rather complete, quoting several authors. It appeared by the way, that most off-map artillery has too big range.

Artillery:

86 Obus 75mm L32 - it shouldn't be Italian modern 75/32 gun (entering production only in 1939), but one of old 75/27 guns with max range 10.2 km (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/27_Mod._1906). This page http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...a/ArtLinea.htm confirms, that M1906 guns were used by Republican Spain in a big number (bought? but it isn't known when).
Now it has range 207, much too big even for 75/32 (which had 12 km). Photo is correct.
It was quite numerous, so maybe there is no reason to end it in 6/38.
Same for units 124,143 Bateria 75L32


87 Obus 75mm Schn (75/28) - according to http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...a.htm#Gobierno it is 75/28 modelo 1912. There is no data, and I can't find such Schneider in Chamberlain/Gander's book on light artillery, but range 205 is impossible - a barrel (L28?) is shorter, than French Mle 1897, so I guess it should be some 10 km max (mle 1905 L/31 for Bulgaria had 8 km).
Photo is a different more modern gun with rubber tires - a proper photo is on the quoted page, or 28057 is quite similar (unused).
Same for units 125,144 Bateria 75mm S and 128 Bateria 75/105
Same for Spain OOB33 units 496 Obus de 75mm, 501 75mm Bateria, 502 Bateria 75/105 - plus icon should be 2111

Possibly 85 Obus 75 M28 is the same gun ("28"). Otherwise there is no info on 75 mm Mle 28 gun on http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...a/ArtLinea.htm, only few "Cañón Schneider 75 mm. Varios modelos". Photo is Mle 1897, but according to the quoted page, surprisingly, only 3 pieces of this ubiquitous gun were acquired, and it is not sure.

On the other hand, up to 50 of Mle 1897 converted to 76,2mm were delivered by the Soviets, starting from 3/38. Range possibly would be 11 km, like the original. Photo should be standard Mle 1897 rather than French split-trail modification - could be 8526, 8623, 23083. Standard icon is 8044

Same for unit 142 Bateria 75 M28 (with different photo in addition)


88 Obus 76.2mm - icon 2115 is used for 100-122mm howitzers. Soviet M.02/30 gun has icon 2112 and more correct photo 8799 of long-barrel modernized version (corresponding with a range).
Weapon's name should be "02/30", not plain 02 (modernized long-barrel)
Same for units 126,145 Bateria 76.2mm


89 Obus 76.5mm - photo is Skoda 75mm mountain gun. According to http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...a/ArtLinea.htm it would be some Skoda 76,5 mm M1907, of which 56 barrels were acquired and matched with improvised gunbeds. It seems that it wasn't too successful. I can't find details about Skoda M1907 (there was only M.17 known https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_cm_FK_M._17), but range 203 is rather impossible (it is doubtful if such makeshift would shoot off-map at all).
There is no photo known, but far better, than Skoda vz.15 mountain gun, would be eg. 28061 (unused, unknown)
Icon 2115 is a howitzer - best would be 2110 or 2111


90 Obus 77mm (Krupp M96) - range was only 8.4km max (now 204) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.7_cm_FK_96_n.A.
Photo of Krupp gun is 23161 (similar or the same - now it's Japanese Type 38)
Icon 2115 is a howitzer - best would be 2110 or 2111

91 Obus 80mm (Skoda) - apparently the same gun as 89 (Czechoslovakia called 76.5mm caliber as 8cm). There are no other 76.5mm Skoda guns indicated on the quoted page.

It could be replaced with Krupp 77 mm FK16, used in significant numbers from late 1936 (up to 60 pieces) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.7_cm_FK_16 - with a better range than Krupp M96 (200-201). Best icon would be long-barrel 2112. Proper photos seem 9392 and 28013 (or similar guns)
Same for units 127,146 Bateria 80mm


93 Obus 100 mm - according to http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...Artilleria.htm and http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...us/ArtObus.htm Skoda howitzers weren't used before SCW, and during the war only two batteries were captured - one with L/17 and one with L/24 barrels in addition. Could be replaced with something more typical, like 105mm FH 16 from 11/36, according to the latter page (eg. Romanian unit 139).
Same for units 129, 147 Bateria 100mm

Spain OOB33 unit 497 Obus de 100mm could stay, assuming, that they were given by Italy. However proper icon is 2115 (2110 is light gun).


93 Obus 105mm - according to Chamberlain/Gander, a range of Vickers M.1922 was 11.000 m (now 206).
Icon is a light cannon, best is 2116.
Same for Spain OOB unit 498 Obus de 105mmplus icon should be the same 2116 (2112 is light gun).

94 Obus 107mm - probably they were 107 mm Type 38 guns bought by Russia in Japan (http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...us/ArtObus.htm and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_38_10_cm_cannon ). Range of original 105 mm Type 38 gun was only 9.9 km or 10.800 m according to http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/38-10.htm (now 202)
Photo is very different twin-trail howitzer Type 91. More similar is 29028 (unused)
Same for unit 149 Bateria 107mm

96 Obus 122mm - no confirmation of Soviet howitzers on http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...us/ArtObus.htm
Same for units 132, 151 Bateria 122mm
Could be replaced with 105mm Schneider Mle 1913 cannon, but only 14 were used from 1938 http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...a/ArtLinea.htm (eg. Polish unit 98)

97 Obus 127mm - it would be British 60pdr gun Mk I. Current photo is Soviet short 122mm howitzer (British OOB uses 16183, albeit a later model).


133, 152 Bateria 150mm - there were only obsolete pre-war Krupp howitzers (http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...Artilleria.htm at a bottom) and a small number of Krupp howitzers acquired during the war http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...us/ArtObus.htm
Range 209 is much too big as for howitzers, even with L27 barrel - there is no data, but I don't think it should be better than 200, if not worse.

There was a handful of 150mm cannons, used mostly for coastal defence http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz.../ArtPesada.htm


134, 155, 160 Bateria 155mm - "Schneider 155/13" was in fact the same short howitzer (L13) as French Mle 17 - unit 154 Bateria 155mm. Correct is a photo 30290 of the latter unit. Used by Republica already from 1/30 - http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...Artilleria.htm. Range was only 11.3 km (now there are two weapons with 208-209).

According to http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz.../ArtPesada.htm, Spain didn't use any other modern long-range 155mm guns, only ancient de Bange 155 mm. M1877 with rigid gunbeds and 13 km range (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bange_155_mm_cannon).

Same as Spain OOB33 unit 506 155mm Bateria


153 Bateria 152mm - weapon should be M.1909/30, with max range 200 (now 204) (name Perm refers to ancient howitzer M.1884 Perm http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...us/ArtObus.htm.

(156 210mm Canon, 157 260mm Mortero - no mention on such antique pieces, only few 240 and 250 mm mortars acquired during the war at http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...s/ArtOtros.htm .. Same for Spain OOB33 units 540, 542, at least as for pre-war weapons))

[Pibwl]

Spain OOB33

Apart from mentions above, I can't verify Nationalist Spain artillery, only small remarks:

059 105mm M.19 Azul - icon should be eg. 2121 - the weapon is apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_...1919_Schneider (now it's modern twin-trail long cannon).
Greek OOB uses photo 1221 for this (or similar) gun.

450 CTV Obice 75L32 - again, it would be 75/27, not modern 75/32 gun. Range should be 200 (now 207). Icon should be 2111 (for M1906 gun - BTW, it's better also for Republican unit 86).

451 CTV Obice100L17 - short 100/17 howitzer in fact had range 8.2 km (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_10_cm_Vz._1914) - now it's 204. Icon should be 2115 (now it's modern twin-trail long cannon).
Unit 497 Obus de 100mm should have the same picture 16038 (now it is long 100mm Skoda).

"Il 100/17 fu impiegato dal Corpo Truppe Volontarie nella guerra civile spagnola con un numero non precisato di batterie; un certo numero di pezzi, con relativi trattori, furono lasciati all'esercito spagnolo."

There's a problem with off-map 456 CTV Batteria100 and 503 100mm Bateria then, but short Skoda 100mm did not shoot that far indeed.

452 CTV Obice105L25 - if it is 105L28 (Italian version of Schneider) https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/105/28, than range was 13 km (now 212!).
Picture is short Skoda howitzer - better is original Schneider 23108, but it differed in a shield: http://waralbum.ru/wp-content/upload...s8osc4.th.jpeg, https://flames-m58ip69dfg.netdna-ssl...art-105-28.jpg, https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fb/57...0ede82bc03.jpg.
Icon should be single-trail 2117 (like other 105mm Schneiders).
Same for 457 CTV Batteria105

BTW: same for Italian unit 164 Obice da 105L25

500 Obus 10cm K18 -standard icon for K18 is 2125

60 Bt 10.5cm Azul - photo should be leFH18 (eg. 2635)

[Pibwl]

Spanish Republic OOB32

Mortars:

162, 175 Mortero Valero (81mm) - a manual suggests, that max range was 2200 m (http://bibliotecavirtualdefensa.es/B...trardownload=1 p.18) - now 55
It had quite an interesting unusual look http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...s/Morteros.htm

163, 176 Mortero Ecia (50mm) - according to http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...s/Morteros.htm, range was 1000 m (now 14). This page says it was Model 1932 (now used from 1/30)

165, 177 Mortero Stokes - no mention on 3in Stokes on the quoted page... However, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_mortar claims, that they were widely used by the Republican Army. Anyway, it would be original WW1 obsolete mortar, with 731 m range, instead of new https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_ML_3_inch_mortar .
If any were bought during the war, surely it wasn't available from 1930.
Anyway, HE kill should be 11, like British one (now 9 - it was 81mm in fact).

164, 178 Mrtr Delaunay - no mention on the quoted page...
(apparently mortier de 75 mm Mle 1917 Jouhandeau-Deslandres http://www.passioncompassion1418.com...nonAffiche=424 manufactured by Delaunay). Icon is a gun.

166, 179 Mortero Brandt - according to the quoted page, appeared only from 8/36 (now 1/30).
A standard mortar from 1/30 before 81mm Valero was 60mm Valero-Esperanza, which could be added. No data can be found, but I assume, that range would be no more than 1000-1200 m...

161, 181 Mortero SB - according to the quoted page, 60mm Brandt appeared only from 8/36 (now 9/35).

There was also an interesting German WW1 Erdhart 76 mm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.58_cm_Minenwerfer used in over 300 pieces: http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...s/ArtOtros.htm (photo http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Image...Suarez_027.jpg)

Also 21 of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_cm_...er_Minenwerfer were used by Republica.

Same for ranges of weapons in Nationalist Spain OOb33:
#37 3" Stokes M.18
#40 5cm Valero-Ecia
#58 81mm Valero M33

[Pibwl]

As a supplement to mortars' names: all mortars 60mm M1926, 50mm M1932 and 81mm M1933 were actually designed by Valero and produced by Esperanza y Cia = Ecia.

According to https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...82486&start=15 (and further pages), from 1942 or 1943, Division Azul used own 120mm Franco mortar, with range 6500 m (now we have unit 281 12cm Morteros with German mortars - I don't know if they were used)

[Pibwl]

I've found another good source as for artillery http://www.amonio.es/artilleria.htm (main page: http://www.amonio.es/index2.htm)

There are no big changes to what I wrote, but some clarifications:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

86 Obus 75mm L32 - it shouldn't be Italian modern 75/32 gun ... but one of old 75/27 guns with max range 10.2 km ... M1906 guns were used by Republican Spain in a big number (bought? but it isn't known when).

http://www.amonio.es/canon_ita_7527.htm confirms, that 75/27 M1906 were bought, probably from Yugoslavia or Greece.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

87 Obus 75mm Schn (75/28) - ... it is 75/28 modelo 1912. There is no data, and I can't find such Schneider in Chamberlain/Gander's book on light artillery, but range 205 is impossible ... I guess it should be some 10 km max

http://www.amonio.es/canon_schneider_7528.htm calls it 75/28 Modelo 1906
Range 8500 m, but it was 10.700 m with "El proyectil rompedor modelo 32 y con espoleta IR"

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Possibly 85 Obus 75 M28 is the same gun ("28"). Otherwise there is no info on 75 mm Mle 28 gun...

Still no info on Mle 28. There is only a mention on "Cañón Schneider de 75 mm, modelo 1922", but without any details. It might be among a dozen of "Cañón Schneider 75 mm. Varios modelos." on a previous page. Still, not typical.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

91 Obus 80mm (Skoda) - apparently the same gun as 89 ... There are no other 76.5mm Skoda guns indicated on the quoted page.

Still no sign of other 76.5mm Skoda model, than M1907.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

93 Obus 105mm - according to Chamberlain/Gander, a range of Vickers M.1922 was 11.000 m (now 206).

http://www.amonio.es/obus_vickers_105_22.htm gives range 9200 m, so 200 would seem OK.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

94 Obus 107mm - probably they were 107 mm Type 38 guns bought by Russia in Japan ...Range of original 105 mm Type 38 gun was only 9.9 km or 10.800 m

http://www.amonio.es/muni_107.htm confirms range around 11 km, allowing to use it in counter battery purposes.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

96 Obus 122mm - no confirmation of Soviet howitzers on http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...us/ArtObus.htm

No mention either.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

156 210mm Canon, 157 260mm Mortero - no mention on such antique pieces ...

There is 210 mm Canon M1885 (nor 1895) http://www.amonio.es/index2.htm, used mostly by Nationalists, but its range is only 6850 m.

There is a mention, that Mortero de 260/9 was of Italian origin. According to https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/260/9_Mod._16 its range was only 9100 m, so its range 200 may or may not be justified... No information, which side used it.

[DRG]

[

Originally Posted by Pibwl

156 210mm Canon, - no mention on such antique pieces ...

http://www.amonio.es/mortero_mata_21cm.htm

they were used by the national side in the autumn of 1936 to cover their right flank while advancing towards Madrid. Apparently they came from the 1st Costa de Cádiz Regiment that were located in the Isla de las Palomas, as a defense of Costa (Excerpted from the book by Artemio Mortera and José Luis Infiesta "The Artillery in the Civil War. Campaign, Quiron Ediciones ").

These mortars were emplaced in November 1936 next to the town of Toledo Mocejón, and near there, precisely, is where the copy of the photograph has been located.

Apparently, the Republican side had several copies of this mortar, one of them in Madrid and four in San Sebastian, which were captured by the nationals to conquer the city.

TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS:
Caliber 21 centimeters
Cannon length: 1633 millimeters
Length of the anima: 1150 millimeters
Number of stripes: 50 to destrorsum
Cannon weight: 815 kilograms
Weight of the product: 830 kilograms
Closure: Three smooth sectors and three threaded.
Reach: 3890 meters
Initial speed: from 85.3 to 215 meters (depending on load)
Projectile: The same as the Plasencia Obed of 21 cm.
Projectile Weight: 78.7
Height: 620 mm

[Mobhack]

A range of 200 is required for off-map artillery. If range is less than 200, the battery can only reach some bits of large maps since range (if not 200+) is measured from 0,0 and so the lower right portion of the map would then be unreachable.

So, if a battery is off-map then 200+ range is a required factor.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

So, if a battery is off-map then 200+ range is a required factor.

I know that That's the problem, if a battery of off-map artillery shouldn't be off-map in reality, for it appears, that it had smaller range (<10km), as in case of Italian basic 100/17 howitzers for instance...


AT guns / Inf howitzers

99 Canon AT 20mm - according to http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtCC/ArtCC.htm it was Bofors 20mm, used from 6/37 (now 9/38). Better seems wheeled icon 8020 (although a photo on the quoted page may not be this specific weapon).


100 Canon AT 25mm - no mention on the quoted page, nor http://www.amonio.es/artilleria.htm (especially, that it appears from 1935 - before the war)

On the other hand, quite a number of interesting 37 mm 'Maklen' (McLean) automatic canons were delivered by Russians - photos: http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtCC/ArtCC.htm, https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theo...-gun-t321.html
There are no penetration data (it wasn't basically AT-gun), but with modest 37x137R mm rounds and quite long barrel, it could be 3-4, I guess http://www.amonio.es/canon_37mm_maklen.htm.


101 Canon AT 37mm (Pak 35) - no mention on http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtCC/ArtCC.htm. It could have been captured from nationalists, but such cases didn't seem common... This page doesn't mention Republican use either http://www.amonio.es/canon_cc37_pak3536.htm

On the other hand, there should be added 37mm Bofors (from 1938? - http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtCC/ArtCC.htm) - eg. Polish unit 400. They were Polish, BTW.


102 Canon AT 37mm (Gochkisa) - obsolete Hotchkiss gun, should have worse penetration (Soviet weapon 12 37mm Hotchkiss has sabot pen. 3 at 4 hexes - the same as L21 Puteaux, but it had longer barrel, so maybe range should be better? Japanese 37mm Sogekiho has range 10)
Better icon is 8032 - current is too modern
Photo of similar gun is 28003 (drawing: http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtCC/ArtCC.htm)
However, according to that page, they could have been not numerous.

103 Canon AT 45mm - a dedicated icon for this weapon is 8022
According to numbers on the quoted page, it was by far most numerous Republican AT gun.

104 Canon AT 47mm - These guns could have been theoretically captured, but there is no mention on http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtCC/ArtCC.htm...
Dedicated icon for 47mm Breda is 8029
Picture 19726 is apparently Soviet 45mm (or Pak) - could be 2646

105 Canon 76.2mm AA - precisely, a weapon was obr.31, not obr.38 http://www.amonio.es/canon_aaruso_31.htm

106 Canon Inf 37mm - photo is definitely some heavier gun, should be 28004, like unit 107. Dedicated icon is 8033 or 8032

107 Canon Inf 37mm - icon as above.

The same Spain OOb33 unit 470, 471

108 Canon Inf 37mm - photo is some heavier gun, correct for 37mm Rosenberg is apparently 23524
According to http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...om/ArtAcom.htm probably a handful were delivered in autumn 1937 (now 11/36). It should rather be class 154 Infantry Howitzer, than AT-gun, with its lousy characteristics.

109,110 Canon Inf 40mm - there is no proper icon to show its weird look, but 2106 seems best
Sabot penetration 7 seems impossible - the same as excellent 2pdr gun with 40×304 mm ammunition, while Arellano had 40×96 mm... http://www.amonio.es/canon_arellano.htm
Commissioned in 1933, developed a few years back.

The same Spain OOB33 unit 472, 473

[Pibwl]

111 Canon Inf 65mm - few Italian captured guns http://www.amonio.es/canon_6517_ita.htm, couldn't have been used from 1930. Should be rather rare, along with unit 112 AT gun.

It's a detail, but a range is quoted as no more than 6500-6800 m (now 142)
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/65/17_Mod._1908/1913 - 6400m
http://www.regioesercito.it/armi/65-17.htm - 6500 m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon.../17_modello_13 - 6800 m
(the same for Spanish, Italian and RSI weapon #31 and Romanian #249)

Spain OOB33 units 420, 421, 474, 475 - icon is wrong long-barrel twin-trail field gun for the first two, and bigger 2120 for the latter - they should be unified (Republican OOB uses 2109, which seems better considering small calibre; Romanian OOB uses yet better 2108)
Same for Italian units 320, 321.
RSI units 320, 321 should be unified as well (they use bigger single-trail field gun 2110)
Instead of generic photo of some different infantry gun for Spanish guns, 2646 or 2647 could be used with clear 65/17 gun, or Italian 16169, or there is a nice WW1 photo https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...s_di_Mezdi.jpg which might look OK for Spain as well.


113,114 Canon Inf 70mm - standard Spanish inf-gun from 1930.
Range was 5000 m http://www.amonio.es/canon_7016.htm (now 90)
Alternative photo at http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...Artilleria.htm
(icon might be too big, used for FH - might be 2109)

It could be added also to Spain OOB33 - Nationalists had even more of them.


115 Canon Inf 76mm (Schneider) - probably Soviet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76_mm_mountain_gun_M1909
Picture is wrong long-barrel FH, Romanian OOB uses picture 23043
(icon might be too big, used for FH - might be 2120)


116 Canon Inf 105mm - too small icon - http://www.amonio.es/obus_montana_105_11.htm - best seems 2115 or 2122
Range is 8000 m according to that page and 7850 m here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_...1919_Schneider (now 120)
Greek OOB uses photo 1221 for this gun.

Same for Spain OOb33 units 59 (already mentioned) and 477, using wrong long-barrel icons.

Spain OOB33:

Apart from mentioned above:

476,479 Canon Inf 75mm (leIG-18) - too heavy howitzer icon. German OOB uses icon 2120 and a picture 9404

478,480 Canon Inf 150mm (sIG-33) - German OOB uses icon 2116

482 25mm Canon AT - not used, especially by nationalists (French gun)

483 37mm TaK 30 - it was ordinary Pak 35/36 from the beginning http://www.amonio.es/canon_cc37_pak3536.htm
A dedicated icon for this and 461, 484, 487 is 8007

485 45mm PTP Obr.32 - a dedicated icon is 8022

486 47L32 Canon AT - a dedicated icon is 8029.
Photo is 65/17 infantry gun, not 47mm Breda AT. Could be 16151, like unit 462 (although in fact this is newer Modelo 1939 gun, what is evident by spoked wheels).
Same icon for unit 462 CTV C/C 47L32

488 50mm PaK38 Azul - a dedicated icon is 8010

[Pibwl]

Flak:

Spanish Republic

120 Canon AA 20mm - Oerlikons were used by Republican side (http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtAA/ArtAA.htm) - photo 17041 (current is Breda). Standard AA icon 64 might be better than wheeled AT gun.

121 Canon AA 37mm - very few http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerz...rtAA/ArtAA.htm

122 40mm Canon AA - photo is German 3,7cm - Bofors is eg. 2332, 2302, 6080 30203. Better dedicated icon seems 2808.
Same for Spain OOB33 unit 494

Spain
38 Vierling Azul - proper icon 63

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End of too detailed artillery, I guess. I hope that some suggestions help.