Error in Abn mtr unit?

[Weasel]

Game setting is June 1950, all para battle. Both my opponent and I have purchased the USA abn 81mm mtr which is part of the abn battalion support, the mtr unit looks like a squad. We have noted that neither of us can get the mortars to fire indirect, is this correct?

I have attached a test setup.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Weasel

Game setting is June 1950, all para battle. Both my opponent and I have purchased the USA abn 81mm mtr which is part of the abn battalion support, the mtr unit looks like a squad. We have noted that neither of us can get the mortars to fire indirect, is this correct?

I have attached a test setup.

There is a section of the Game Guide entitled "MBT Unit Classes" which can save you the trouble of posting on the forums:

UnitClass 173=Para Mortar Team Paratrooper direct fire light/medium mortar class

So they are direct fire mortars, like the German heavy infantry sections in WW2 with 2 or 3 50mm mortars. They are not crewed heavy weapons, which are split into weapon and crew if para-dropped, so they can be used directly on landing. That's because they are an infantry class, not a team.

Should you want regular mortars for indirect fire then you should buy regular mortars and load those in the plane, where AFAIR the crew is split and so has to find their assigned mortar and join up after landing.

[Weasel]

Why are they btn support then since they cannot support the btn? Btn mortars do not run forward to fire directly at the enemy, they are organic indirect fire fast response artillery that deploy with the btn HQ.

I am going through the oobs and so far the USA para btn support is the only one like this, the French AFN support has indirect 81, as does Russia (inf btn support), Romanian mountain btn support, Swedish btn support to name a few.

According to the TO&E of the airborne battalion the mortars: THE
COMPANY IS SUPPORTED BY THE BATTALION HEADQUARTERS ON A MISSION
BASIS WITH 81-MM MORTAR FIRE. The btn is supporting the company; it even states that the company 60mm mortars are to:

PARAGRAPH 05, 60MM MORTAR SECTION.
(1) FUNCTION. THIS SECTION OPERATES UNDER DIRECT CONTROL OF
THE RIFLE COMPANY HEADQUARTERS BUT CAN, AS MISSION DICTATES, BE
ATTACHED TO A RIFLE PLATOON. THIS SECTION WITH TWO MORTARS MAY BE
EMPLOYED IN THE INDIRECT FIRE OR DIRECT FIRE MODE TO PROVIDE
LIMITED IMMEDIATE FIRE SUPPORT TO THE RIFLE COMPANY.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit.../07037L000.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M252_mortar: Used for long range indirect fire

and finally: http://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Porta...f%20Motars.pdf

I am not *****ing, I am asking a question as this just doesn't seem right. If even the company 60mm are for indirect then why are the btn support mortars direct fire only?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Weasel

Why are they btn support then since they cannot support the btn? Btn mortars do not run forward to fire directly at the enemy, they are organic indirect fire fast response artillery that deploy with the btn HQ.

I am going through the oobs and so far the USA para btn support is the only one like this, the French AFN support has indirect 81, as does Russia (inf btn support), Romanian mountain btn support, Swedish btn support to name a few.?

Is the French AFN support an [A] formation? NO it is NOT and therefore not set up as a para drop formation so it gets normal arty mortars.....put that in an aicraft and drop it and you'll get the mortar and the crew dropped separately....... they US version was set up by a differently by the guy who wrote it and AFAIK you are the first one to take issue with it .



Para Mortar Pl with "Abn 81mm Mtr" is direct fire so you get some fire support and it's only used by 127 Para Mortar Pl - Available: 01/46-12/53 after that Para Mortar Pl from 1/54 - 12 /65 is a normal indirect capable mortar and it's used in Para Bn Spt [A] so it is dropped and the crew separates out. AFAIK it's been like that for over a decade.......and there are no Russian [A] mortar units and if you think there are then provide formation numbers. I cannot be expected to remember ever detail of the 17+ thousand formations in MBT.

What you are commenting on is ONE unit in the US operating for 8 years used in Used in Formation 132 Para Bn Spt [A] and in Formation 219 Para Bn Spt both run 1/46-12/53 and have now been renamed Para DF Mtr Pl for greater clarity... that is set up to allow players some mortar support that does not need to be rejoined and here's the list of all the units in the game that use that unit class and are therefore direct fire only mortars...so it's not just that one US formation that is set up like that

NationID NationName name slot
1 Egypt Para Mortar 216
4 Israel 60mm Para Mtrs 522
4 Israel 60mm Para Mtrs 523
4 Israel 60mm Para Mtrs 524
5 Japan Para Mortars 462
5 Japan Para Mortars 463
5 Japan Para Mortars 464
5 Japan Para Mortars 465
6 France 60mm Mortar 344
6 France 60mm Mortar 381
12 USA Abn 81mm Mtr 516
14 China 100mm T80 Mtr 405
14 China 100mm PP-89 Mtr 407
18 India Para Support 546
18 India Para Support 545
18 India Para Support 544
18 India Para Support 543
18 India Para Support 542
19 North Korea Abn 60mm Mortar 598
19 North Korea Abn 60mm Mortar 599
27 Belgium Para Support 527
27 Belgium Para Mortar 542
27 Belgium Para Mortar 543
30 Canada Para Mortars 507
30 Canada Para Mortars 508
30 Canada Para Mortars 509
30 Canada Para Mortars 510
30 Canada Para Mortars 511
31 Greece Para Support 321
31 Greece Para Support 322
31 Greece Para Support 323
34 Italy Para DF Mortars 417
34 Italy Para DF Mortars 415
34 Italy Para DF Mortars 416
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 289
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 290
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 291
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 292
41 Yugoslavia / Serbia 60mm Para Mtrs 293
46 Austria FJg 81mm GrW 368
52 South Africa 81mm DF Mortars 215
52 South Africa 81mm DF Mortars 216
52 South Africa 81mm DF Mortars 217
53 Switzerland Fsch Moerser 366
53 Switzerland Fsch Moerser 367
60 Croatia 60mm Para Mors 293
63 Ethiopia Para DF Mortars 438
63 Ethiopia Para DF Mortars 457
67 Sudan Para Mortar 542
71 Indonesia Para 81 Mortars 571
71 Indonesia Para 81 Mortars 572
71 Indonesia Para 81 Mortars 573
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 214
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 215
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 216
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 217
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 218
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 219
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 220
73 Portugal Para Mortar Sec 221
86 Rhodesia Para Mortar 98
95 For R&D only 81mm ParaMortar 217

but if you think we're being unfair I can build a new one with mortars that will be dropped in two parts to cover those 8 years.

APPARENTLY this is one formation that was set up this way then fell through the cracks as it seems that every year after 1953 the mortars are normal DF ......but as you can see there are a lot of other nations that use the same type of unit.

[DRG]

The direct fire mortars allow you to get some fire support on map without the mortar and the crew separated...... that's what they do and that is a game function that has existed for years.....if you want indirect mortars then you buy normal mortars and they end up with the mortar one place and the crew another and the player need to re-join the two then wait a turn before they can be targeted.......again......the direct fire mortars are an infantry class so you get some support on landing but they are not indirect fire capable

[Weasel]

I would be interested in seeing what TO&E was used to determine direct fire 81mm mortars as support; I have never heard of such a thing so a reference would be fantastic. I cannot find anything on it, but I can on indirect fire. My point really on those para btn support unit is that the mortars are not listed as DF (I guess the next patch will be so?) unlike the 60mm mortars that have DF with them. I bought them thinking they were indirect, I shouldn't have to read the manual for each unit before buying it (nor should my opponent).

But while we are at it, there are Canadian 2 man 60mm mortars that will not fit in an empty dakota, but the 6 man 60mm mortar will. Want me to post a file?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Weasel

I would be interested in seeing what TO&E was used to determine direct fire 81mm mortars as support; I have never heard of such a thing so a reference would be fantastic. I cannot find anything on it, but I can on indirect fire. My point really on those para btn support unit is that the mortars are not listed as DF (I guess the next patch will be so?) unlike the 60mm mortars that have DF with them. I bought them thinking they were indirect, I shouldn't have to read the manual for each unit before buying it (nor should my opponent).

Here's what I'm going to do as I have little interest in trying to justify the way a formation was put together by someone else a decade and a half ago that coves the first 8 years of an OOB than spans 70 years .......next release those DF mortars are now clearly marked as DF and there are formations for players who like them that way and new formations set up like all the rest after 1953 with regular indirect capable mortars.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Weasel

I would be interested in seeing what TO&E was used to determine direct fire 81mm mortars as support; I have never heard of such a thing so a reference would be fantastic. I cannot find anything on it, but I can on indirect fire. My point really on those para btn support unit is that the mortars are not listed as DF (I guess the next patch will be so?) unlike the 60mm mortars that have DF with them. I bought them thinking they were indirect, I shouldn't have to read the manual for each unit before buying it (nor should my opponent).

No but we at least HOPE people will read the game manual before playing to understand the game mechanics ( and that includes the MOBHack help that details things like this )

OK......lets go straight to GAME BASICS which is what I should have done last night but I was distracted by other issues and this is something I thought was settled and understood over a decade ago. I forget sometimes that not everyone does understand instinctively how the game works.

Vehicle / aircraft have three carry capacity ratings all built around the one byte code limit of 255

a unit that shows a carry capacity up to 99 can carry foot passengers ONLY

....so if it has a capacity rating of 34 it can load up to 34 troops ( but NOT "guns" and NOT vehicles )

if it has a three digit carry capacity starting with a 1 then it can carry guns....so anything 1xx can carry men and guns up to the limit of xx so a unit with a 134 carry capacity can carry men AND guns (including mortars) up to the limit of 34...if it had a rating of 174 then it can carry up to 74 "weight points" including guns/mortars

if it has a carry capacity rating starting with a 2 UP TO 255 ( the largest number that can be entered) then it can carry vehicles, guns and men up to a limit of 255 "weight points"

because mortars are "guns" and we didn't want people loading and para dropping howitzers from things like Dakotas but wanted to allow some type of mortar support we created these direct fire only mortar units....that have NOTHING to do with any "official" TO&E.....it's what we had to do to allow mortar support loading into aircraft but keep players from loading things into said aircraft that they shouldn't.....so the ENTIRE reason we went to all the trouble of adding and coding DF mortars into the game was to avoid having to give transport aircraft a 1xx carry capacity then have players decide a 105mm howitzer will fit so they load it in....which would generated complaints from PBEM opponents that we were allowing players to "cheat".

THAT is why there are DF mortars in the game. It was much simpler in SPWW2 where there were gliders to carry the mortars and guns but in MBT there are larger transport aircraft that can carry guns and vehicles which "complicates" the issue ......as well not everyone understands if you para drop a normal mortar unit the game splits it into two parts when it gets kicked out the door and the player is expected to find the appropriate crew and mate it back with the appropriate mortar...integrating them was much simpler for players....it meant you could not indirect fire them but it at least gave players the ability to project fire beyond normal rifle range...so a compromise between reality and game mechanics.....again NOTHING to do with an RL "official" TO&E. Once Helicopter got large enough to carry guns they kinda/ sorta took the place of the gliders for moving indirect capable arty onto the game map.


That said I will admit that the game guide explanation of all this is a bit too brief not detailed enough and I have now expanded the explanation in the guide considerably.

Carry Capacity

An indication of how much this unit can carry. XX means it can only carry troops, 1XX means it can carry a crewed weapon ( guns, mortars etc ), 2XX a vehicle.

Here is a more detailed explanation:

Vehicles and aircraft ( including landing craft and barges ) have three carry capacity ratings all built around the one byte code limit of 255

1/ A unit that shows a carry capacity up to 99 can carry foot passengers ONLY. If that vehicle / aircraft / barge has a "load cost" capacity rating of 34 it can load up to 34 troops ( but NOT crewed guns and NOT vehicles )

2/ If that vehicle / aircraft / barge has a three digit carry capacity starting with a 1 then it can carry crewed guns and troops ( but NOT vehicles)....so anything 1xx can carry men and guns up to the limit of xx. For example-- a unit with a 134 carry capacity can carry men AND guns (including mortars) up to the limit of 34 "load cost"...if it had a rating of 174 then it can carry up to 74 "load cost" including guns and mortars

3/ If it has a carry capacity rating starting with a 2 UP TO 255 ( the largest number that can be entered) then it can carry vehicles, guns and men up to a limit of 255 "load cost" so to use the previous examples if a vehicle / aircraft / barge has a capacity rating of 234 then it can carry troops, guns AND vehicles up to the "load cost" limit of 34

[Weasel]

Russia formation 103,105,106

Romania 108

Sweden 98

The para mortar is Cdn unit 502 (sten smg + 60mm DF mortar)lists as too heavy to load on am empty dakota but it is part of an airborne company (A).

[DRG]

Yes