Question about aircraft range finders

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The other ones are fighter-bombers, and do find range finders rather useful for firing their direct-fire weapons, such as cannons, missiles, rockets etc. Just like they find thier thermal vision useful for actually seeing thier direct fire targets.

Andy

I'm wondering, do laser guided munitions (Paveway, Maverick, JDAM, APKWS) count as direct-fire weapons for purposes of range finders on aircraft?

Would HARM type weapons benefit from a range finder?

If this is the case perhaps some aircraft that don't currently have a range finder rating (for example the AV-8 Harrier) might rate one.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Driving the issue I see, I mean a very interesting question of course!?! Will try to follow along in all serousness this information from all parties will be useful. Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Currently we have :

AC-47D Puff ('64-'69) RF=8
AC-130A Spectre ('68-'95) RF=8
AC-130E Big Gun ('72-'95) RF=8
AC-130U Spooky ('95-'06) RF=8
AC-130U+ Spooky ('06-'20) RF=12
A-7A Corsair II ('67-'70) RF=5
A-7E Corsair II ('70-'87) RF=10
F-35B Lightning (maybe '16-20) RF=14

I'd certainly think the following aircraft should rate RF :

A-6E Intruder (and quite possibly the A-6A version)
EA-6 Prowler
F-111 Aardvark
F117 Nighthawk

And possibly the :

RF-4 Wild Weasel
A-10 Warthog
F-14 Tomcat
F/A-18F Hornet (the two seat variant, and quite possibly the F/A-18E version)
E/A-18G Growler
AV-8B+ Harrier (and maybe the AV-8B version)
AV-8C Harrier
MQ-1B Predator
MQ-9 Mariner
F-22 Raptor

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I offer the following for the benefit of others (Including myself.) it's an USAF document from 2001. It deals with the topic in depth and discusses the need to continue in the joint services effort to align themselves in the area of commonality in the use of laser range finding (LRF) and related systems. This is happening as I've already touched on yesterday in the Jets...thread concerning the SNIPER Pod, TSS on the AH-1Z and MPADS I believe, on APACHE to which all are cut from the "same cloth". Also before reading it, and again it is worth your time to do so, we need to fully understand the proliferation of these weapons in the field now take for example the newer tanks I've presented for entry into the game, and many already there, most have LRF on them, however the trend now is the put laser warning systems on the tanks that are also linked to it's on board defensive systems regardless of type system used from aerosol smoke dispensers to systems like TROPHY. The second ref is less detailed but will also touch on the fact that the newer bombs and other systems of a similar nature don't even need LRF to hit the target such as the "point and shoot" or "shoot and forget" and GPS guided systems. Again the pods etc. it all boils down to the simple fact, "If you can see it, you can shoot it", aircraft are no different then the modern MBT in this regard, they have evolved with their technology and weapons as well. This would involve a fair amount of research to determine what aircraft have them, and which don't and here's the rub but are still capable of using LRF weapons of which there are many. So it'll be a plane and weapon issue to sort this out. For my part near term I have about 20 planes on my list of new type and or under modernization and will indicate which of the two or both capabilities they may have to include pods carried if any. Also though not at a 100% some of the weather issues etc. have been reduced slightly by alternating bands across the light spectrum.
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...enswander.html
http://www.nd.edu/~techrev/Archive/Spring2002/a9.html

Time for bed with a new week about to start!
Good Night!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Lets try this

I am way too busy ATM to grope around in the code looking for that answer and I know Andys a bit indisposed today so why not set up some tests with the weapons you are curious about and set up test aircraft with no RF, Med RF , High RF and super high RF armed with the various weapons and a nice flat map with no terrain and clear targets and then let us all know how that works out.


Don

[Suhiir]

FO/FAC Team Vision=40 RF=None
Map 75 x 75 flat grass Iraqi Assault USMC

Target 20 x BRDM-2 in open spaced no closer then 5 hexes from each other.
All within line of sight of FO/FAC Team.

100 x A-6E Intruder FC=00 RF=00 1 x 500# bomb Hits=11 Kills=06 all misses 1 hex from target

100 x A-6E Intruder FC=00 RF=20 1 x 500# bomb Hits=04 Kills=01 all misses 1 hex from target

Draw your own conclusions concerning :

The accuracy of aircraft in general
The lethality of bombs in general
The value of RF

[Mobhack]

The RF should only be checked in any strafing runs where the target is seen (a to-hit %age score is given on the info line at the top of the screen).

If the plane does an area fire because it has not spotted anything then normal area fire rules apply (R/F is ignored). Ignore any such sample runs. R/F is ignored for area fires - but will be used for a direct bomb drop, but as that is at 0 hex range its unlikely to make much difference.

Planes fire at 2 pre-determined cannon/rocket points (~12 and 6 hexes?) - making RF greater than ~12 moot, most likely. Direct aimed bombs are dropped at 0 hexes.

However Laser R/F (20+) only has a 2-stage shot ladder, not 3 as with all other direct fire (except missiles which are special). That may make some difference over a few test runs.

Also - you may want to check out the F/C ratings as well (needs a moving test target). Again, at such short ranges fixed wing planes may not benefit that much for larger numbers than say 15(?).

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

.......and if I'd told you that would you have believed me ?

I think Andy's said this before, maybe not in the same way but here goes.

Aircraft in this game are not that effective because in real life they are not as effective as everyone would like them to be. The reason they are not effective in the game is because there are a s&*tload of variables tossed into the code so they don't act like flying snipers and all of those variables get tossed in AFTER the stuff you see in the OOB's .

There has to be variables to ensure the same things don't happen again and again and again even when the player expects his high priced flyboys to snuff out all opposition at will..( yes , I know. YOU don't think like that...)...AND...( this is important..) when *I* do use aircraft I generally get what I consider satisfactory results but that does not mean my planes hit everything they target because I don't expect them to and that's why I get "satisfactory results" . Andy rarely uses aircaft....see a pattern ?

So....... your observations have been noted and they aren't a surprise and given all the other things we are trying to accomplish this time around the chances of any change to the air routine is right up there with the proverbial snowball in hell so let's give this a rest for awhile.

OK?

We get it. YOU don't like the way air is handled in the game. Got it.



Don

[Suhiir]

FO/FAC Team Vision=40 RF=None
Map 75 x 75 flat grass Iraqi Assault USMC

Target 20 x BRDM-2 in open spaced no closer then 5 hexes from each other.
All within line of sight of FO/FAC Team.

100 x AV-8B+ Harrier Vision=40 FC=20 RF=00 1 x 25mm GAU-12
Hits=Zero Kills=Zero

100 x AV-8B+ Harrier Vision=40 FC=20 RF=20 1 x 25mm GAU-12
Hits=02 Kills=02

It's not so much I don't like the way aircraft are handled in the game as much as I wonder why they're included at all.

I'd have to wonder why you guys spend the time and effort to research, create, and add them to the OOBs.

As much as my comments may be taken as snide and sarcastic they aren't intended as such.

That said feel free to lock the thread.

[DRG]

Apparently you missed the line where I said

when *I* do use aircraft I generally get what I consider satisfactory results but that does not mean my planes hit everything they target because I don't expect them to and that's why I get "satisfactory results" .

I thought that was fairly clear... apparently not so I'll elaborate.... they are doing pretty much what we expect them to do. ( ie we're not complaining ) I appreciate though that it is frustrating for people who expect more.

Don