North Korea errors report

[Marcello]

The following units should be deleted.
Units 66-602-603-604 : BMP-3
Unit 22: T-80U
On the basis of available info never delivered to North Korea , only to the South.
Sale of T-80Us and BMP-3s to North Korea is not reported in any available source, such as SIPRI, available russian news etc.. Further since such systems were not available for export before the end of the Cold war they could only have come after, when North Korea simply did not have the money to purchase significant amount of items like high end tanks. The only russian AFVs purchased since 1992 have been a small (10-30 depending on the source) batch of BTR-80A and maybe a single T-90, the latter presumably for evaluation and limted reverse engineering. Some additional stuff (some T-72s according to some rumors) might have been purchased in clandestine deals but almost certainly no T-80Us.
A summary of the russian-north korean arms trade can be found at the following link.
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/2-2007/item4/item2/
Further...
http://www.ieas.or.kr/vol16_2/16_2_chronology.pdf
In a well publicized move the south korean units with russian AFVs, previously held in the rear, were deployed along the border with North Korea. Presumably it was to score cheap political points against the North, something along the lines of “See, the Russians have given us state of the art of the equipment, they don’t give a crap about you anymore ”. If the North koreans had the very same vehicles one would expect that the fear of fratricide would outweight the actual and symbolical contribution of a single tank battalion. It’s not like South Korea is that desperate for tanks with more than a thousands of K series tanks in service.
Unit 13: T-55AM1
Never observed or noted as being delivered All T-54/55/59s shown in pics are in vanilla configuration, give or take a 14.5mm AAMG in place of the DShK. It also seems logical that any expensive modernization efforts (add on armor, LRFs etc.) would have been concentrated on the T-62 in the attempt to keep the best tank available competitive with the K1/K1A1.

Unit 18: T-62MV
Never observed. Unit 583 Ch'onma-Ho IV covers the uparmored T-62/Ch'onma-Ho adequately
Unit 262 : TO-62
Never existed as discussed in the thread about Iraq
Unit 266 : IS-III
IS-2s were delivered (60 units reported delivered in 1961-1962 for example), but no IS-III apparently.

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by Marcello

The following units should be deleted.
Units 66-602-603-604 : BMP-3
Unit 22: T-80U
On the basis of available info never delivered to North Korea , only to the South.

I agree.

The most advanced DPRK tank that I have ever seen pictured is the Ch'onma-Ho:



However, it is rumoured that one DPRK armoured division (the 109th Tank Division defending the capital Pyongyang) is partially equipped with a locally manufactured ‘mystery’ tank called the P'okpoong-Ho (unofficial ROK/U.S. designation M2002). It has been compared with the T-72, T-80 and T-90 at different times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P'okpoong-Ho

[Marcello]

Thier best confirmed tank is the Ch'onma-Ho III/IV (the sources disagree on differences betweeen III and IV marks).



It seems rather similar to the T-62M/M1 (note, this particular one did not get the glacis add-on)



It is interesting to see (in this and other pics) that, if I am not mistaken, the ERA is used mostly to cover a secondary area such as the turret side. The glacis is naked and the front turret has only few bricks. Granted, the turret front and the glacis seem to incorporate some sort of composite armor (BDD probably, like T-55AM/T-62M1) but it would suggest they do not put a great deal of faith in their ERA (if it is actually ERA).
Overall it is probably marginally better armored (in addition to ERA and side skirt the passive composites could be better integrated on new production vehicles, unlike the add-ons on existing ones) than the T-62M1 but otherwise quite similar.

If they have anything better they have yet to show it. I would not be surprised if the "anything better" consists only of prototypes, propaganda and defectors hearsay.

[Denis_469]

In KNDR tanks many errors and what in game not describe like real tanks. I find few data in russian:
http://offtop.ru/spanther/v6_661251__.php

Korean tank Pokphunho (US- M-2002) is total wrong. This tank analog russian T-90 and 1 from best tanks of the world. Only 1 tank in world would be best then NK Popkhunho - it's future russian T-95.
Armor NK tank like armore T-90, tank have 125mm gun, 14,5mm AA MG with AP shells. Tank can fire in mounting in speed, but South Korea tank K-2 can not fire in mounting in speed. Observation equipment NK tank like in T-90. FC NK tank best, then FC SK tank K-2.

KNDR tank Chhonmaho-5 receive 125mm gun. -4 receive new FC equipment like T-72AB, -3 receive 14,5mm AA MG and active armore, -2 receive 12,7mm AAMG, -1 KNDR copy soviet T-62A.

In it moment all.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Denis_469

Only 1 tank in world would be best then NK Popkhunho - it's future russian T-95.
Armor NK tank like armore T-90, tank have 125mm gun, 14,5mm AA MG with AP shells. Tank can fire in mounting in speed, but South Korea tank K-2 can not fire in mounting in speed. Observation equipment NK tank like in T-90. FC NK tank best, then FC SK tank K-2.

The P'okpoong-Ho, if it exists, is at best a poor man T-90 which in turn is not (and was never meant to be, in any case) anything more than a cost effective "good enough" interim tank pending the development of the next generation (T-95, Molot etc.).
As for the rest it requires quite a bit of suspension of disbelief to buy that a country with the economy and tech level of North Korea could have managed to produce a vehicle more capable than the K2 which was designed from scratch at about the same time the nortk koreans were dying of starvation by the hundreds of thousands. If you are saying that the K-2 cannot shoot on the move, well there are videos of it doing just that.

Originally Posted by Denis_469

KNDR tank Chhonmaho-5 receive 125mm gun. -4 receive new FC equipment like T-72AB, -3 receive 14,5mm AA MG and active armore, -2 receive 12,7mm AAMG, -1 KNDR copy soviet T-62A.
In it moment all.

It is not that clear actually.According to some sources Ch'onma-ho II for example is supposed to be the one with laser rangefinder but no extra armor.
Ch'onma-ho I might be a KV-1s type of deal, a T-62 built with thinner plates, at least judging from the pictures.
14,5mm AAMG seem to be a common feature across the board.

[Marcello]

Unit 463: Type 89 SPG
It should be deleted
These were rare chinese vehicles, produced in limited numbers and never exported. No source reports sale of them to North Korea. Even if they are there as hypothetical chinese reinforcements there are better candidates.
Sources
www.army-guide.com
http://www.sinodefence.com

Unit 582: Type 62-II
It should be deleted.
Even if North Korea managed to put their hands on some thermal sights they would be used on recon vehicles or their best MBTs, certainly not used as gunsigths on some obsolete light tank.

Unit 42: Type 56 SPAA
To be deleted.
It is redundant (BTR-40 clone), besides the chinese Type 56 is the Zpu-4, not zpu-2.

Unit 47: Type 88K SPAA
To be deleted.
It does not seem to correspond to any reported system in NKPA service.

Some units to be added instead

1) ZSU-23-4 unit 402 from russian OOB
Availability dates 1/1971-12/2020
Source SIPRI

2) M1992 SPAA
Basically a ZSU-23-4 derivate with twin 30mm instead of quad 23mm
Availability dates 1/1990-12/2020
Source: pictures

Also
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...1992-spaag.htm

3) M-1977 122mm
This unit could be made in the following way:
a) Import unit 106 Type 70 122mm from the chinese OOB;
b) Arm it with weapon n.110 122mm D-30 FH;
c) Reduce speed a bit, let’s say to 20;
d) Rename it M-1977 122mm;
e) Availability dates 1/1977-12/2020.
Sources: pictures

Also
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m-1977-122.htm


4) A clone of the above M-1977, but with the following changes:
a) Class 39 SP Gun;
b) Weapon n. 97 100mm 2A29 65 as armament;
c) Appropriate loadout and FC ratings for a tank destroyer;
Source: pictures


It could be used to fill the gap in the formations left by deleting unit 463 Type 89 SPG.

[DRG]

.....any chance this is going to turn into another Iraq ???

[EJ]

Marcello,
You really have a passion for this game! Coming up with all the needed equipment corrections. I look forward to the next upcoming patch update provided Andy and Don can input it all.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by DRG

.....any chance this is going to turn into another Iraq ???

No. Iraq has had such a complex armaments story (switching primary suppliers multiple times for example) that it basically needed to be completely redone. North Korea needs only a few adjustments by comparison.

[DRG]

OK

Don