Wishlist: Multi-Tier PD.

[HoneyBadger]

This was originally posted to the wishlist in the maps/mods forum. With Ballbarian's permission and help, I'm reposting this thread in the main forum to hopefully get more eyes on it, since it's been a while since we've had a good discussion of PD:

PD is a part of the game that many people have pointed to as being a great reducer of micromanagement, and a feature that really ought to be in more strategic games, a feature that other strategy games should envy!-and yet the way it's currently integrated into the game barely harnesses it's fantastic potential, to the point where people hardly bother using it at all, by the start of mid-game.

I'd like to request the ability to set up Province Defense (PD) in such a way that you could have new types of units/commanders added to a province's PD at any point value (1-125), instead of the current two-stage, 1-20, 21-125 setup. This would allow for a much more interesting, dynamic, and relevant application of a--very innovative and useful!--part of the game (namely PD), that is usually barely looked at, if not outright ignored, past 30 points or so in the average game.

This would allow PD to keep it's functionality up to and into the early Late Game, making it a much richer part of overall strategy.

Furthermore, to increase it's application, and to add to the overall continuity and relevance of PD in the game, here are some more thoughts on improving it:

1: PD should be influenced by the Pop-type of the province it's built upon, for the first 20 points. EG: If you build PD on a province containing Lizardmen, you should get Lizardmen troops for the first 20 points, commanded by whatever commander your nation usually gets. Past 20, PD functions as normal, since you'd be adding your more elite units to support the province's basic militia. This makes capturing certain provinces more strategically relevant, since they may be more or less immediately defendable, depending on the province's Pop-type (Hoburgs vs. Jotuns). It also makes for more interesting tactics, since you will then be forced to integrate your forces with native forces, to your betterment or detriment.

This might be further improved upon by adding 1 more elite PD unit of that Poptype (Lizardman poison-slingers instead of militia, for example) for every 5 points of PD you put on that province. Example: Buying 25 points of PD on the Lizardman poptype would gain you 21 points of Lizardman PD (20 militias and 1 regular), 4 points of your own PD (which would be what you'd normally get for PD 21-24), and your own normal PD commanders. It might not seem like a lot to just have 1 unit per 5 PD, but if each poptype had a useful unit, they might really make a difference with higher PD-giving, again, more impetus to build higher PD. (Hoburgs could start coming into their own at this level, by giving you tough hoburg knights armed with crossbows, while Jotuns might just give you a Jotun infantry armed with a spear)

This would also make the Poptypes themselves more interesting, particularly to mod, since each would have it's more elite, interesting unit(s), making some Poptypes-if they're located in provinces of strategic relevance-almost as good as a magic site, especially if that particular Province happens to actually hold a valuable magic site or two.

2: PD should be influenced by whether or not there's a fortress built on the Province, what type of fortress/castle is built there, and whether or not it's your home Province.

Firstly, Provinces with fortresses on them should allow up to 150 PD instead of 125. Fortresses and PD are both elements of infrastructure, and building a fortress should affect the potential PD as well.

Secondly, PD build on your home Province should always start (better units/commanders at PD 1 instead of PD 21) off better than PD in other Provinces. It's the home of your people, filled with veterans, loyalists, people devoted to your cause. Your PD should always be of a better quality here than anywhere else, and if it's destroyed, you should be able to rebuild it at that same level of quality. This will also help deflect early rushes and early barbarian/vampire/etc. events.

Thirdly, in your home Province, and in any Province in which you've built a fortress, you should gain access to an improved PD structure. This represents a fortress's more efficient ability to train troops, arm them, and defend the area. Your home Province would gain this ability whether there's a Fortress or not, simply as a home-court advantage (your people know the area well, know what it can do, and how to defend it. The fortress on your home Province still adds the ability to withstand a seige, all it's administrative and building abilities, etc.)

EG: In a regular (no fortress) province, you might (as currently) recieve militia-quality units at PD 1-20, and infantry units at 21-125. In a Province with a fortress, you would then have access to PD which gave you militia-quality units at PD 1-20, infantry units at PD 21-125, with the *addition* of an archer unit at PD 31-125.

A multi-tier PD would still function well, with the addition of fortress PD. EG: Normal PD gives you militias at PD 1-125, infantry at 21-125, and let's say a light calvalry unit at PD 41-125. Building a fortress, you now gain the militias, the infantry, and the light calvalry, but you also gain a unit of archers at PD 31-125. So by the time you've got a PD of 50, you've got a tidy force of 50 militias, 30 infantry, 20 archers, and 10 light calvalry. Not overbalanced for mid-game, but not insignificant either, especially if you're supporting them with regular troops.

To improve upon this, it might also be possible to "switch off" unit types, past a certain point-build your PD to 60, and you no longer get any militia units after that point. This would keep the numbers down to a more manageable level (more manageable than is currently in the game, since PD units don't currently "switch off" in this manner), while allowing those militias to be replaced by better quality, more relevant troops-you stop building militias at PD 60, but you start building heavy infantries.

PD could be affected by other factors, as well: A Lord of War Pretender chassis might give your PD units better commanders, a Forge Lord might give them better equipment, a Freaklord might give you freakish units instead of militia, a Vampire Queen might replace a portion of your PD with Thralls and Vampires, and a Mother of Monsters might add monstrous allies at higher levels.

Magic Sites might also affect PD. You might come across a site which allowed you to gain Draconians at PD 51-125, or replace your militia units with ghouls, or your starting commander with a Jotun Jarl or a lich, or replaced your entire PD structure with demonic troops.

You might even forge an artifact that affected PD-by forging Excalibur, you might have your PD in any Province where Excalibur is located, replaced by Knights of the Chalice.

[WraithLord]

Excellent post. I'd be content if even a tenth of it would ever be realized.

If I might add, some magery in PD would be a nice touch as well. Currently only limited nation get that so it would be nice where it broadened to more nations.

[Digress]

To add another layer of complexity, dominion could also play a role. The equipment/appearance of the pop-type PD troops could be modified by dominion (and perhaps time) - Mictlan PD would ditch, say, their trusty broadswords for obsidian club thingies etc.

[Edratman]

Excellant post. Chock full of good ideas.

[HoneyBadger]

Thank you, Wraithlord.

I agree about the magery, although I think it should be kept on a tight leash, since too much would take something away from those fun, last-ditch efforts my researcher mages always seem to get in, where I'm forced into using them to break seiges... I imagine them a bit like a good 80's movie, something of the bastard love-child of the 'Goonies', the mages from 'Dragonslayer', 'Revenge of the Nerds', and the kids from 'Red Dawn'.

Fortress PD might be extended to Temple and Lab PD too, though, I suppose, with their existence in the province-or lack of it-influencing things slightly...After all, where would medieval/mythical China and Japan be without some Shaolin monastery defending the province? Ars Magica has some Coven imagery that goes along similar lines.

[Ming]

Interesting idea. It would be a nightmare to balance though.

[HoneyBadger]

Might not be that bad, if you consider that you're still paying more and more for each point you raise it. It would take time and patience, and a lot of trial to get it right, like anything else, but I don't think it would be much worse than trying to balance various mod nations into the vanilla game. Maybe better, because it would ultimately involve less units-and units that already exist-per nation or pop type.

[licker]

Would it be worth putting PD in to your pretender build?

Such that you can spend some points to improve it in maybe some of the ways mentioned above?

[Edratman]

Originally Posted by licker

Would it be worth putting PD in to your pretender build?

Such that you can spend some points to improve it in maybe some of the ways mentioned above?

What an interesting idea!

[Loren]

I definitely like it. Some more thoughts:

If there is a temple in the province you should get a priest for every units of PD, assuming there is some sort of priest that you can recruit there.

Likewise, a lab produces mages.

Without the buildings you get neither priests nor mages unless your standard commander (say Himmon) is one.

I'm not too happy with the notion of the elite units at higher PD levels. Instead, how about two PD scales, normal and elite. Obviously, elite PD costs more to buy.

I'm not at all sure there should be any cap on how high PD can go. Super high PD can always be bypassed or taken out with battlefield nukes. (Guy A buys 500 points of PD. B sends in a communion that gets off a few master enslaves. Who got the better deal??)

PD should always consist only of troops that could be recruited there with the exception of LA Ermor's capital, they should get undead. Thus you get only indie PD unless you have a fort there--but on the flip side I think you should be able to get it underwater.

I'm also inclined to think that PD should slowly grow over time, say 1 point per season in any province with 10? 20? or above and a friendly dominion. It would shrink at the same rate in a hostile dominion.