Forge

[HoneyBadger]

I was just thinking (which usually is what gets me in trouble), and had a thought that, while appealing to micromanagers, but not to the point where it clutters the game up by any means, one might possibly add one other type of building, the Forge. Thematically, a Forge is very different from a Temple or a Lab, and mythologically it's a vital, central element. I'm thinking that this would allow leftover resources to be converted to gold, or gold to resources in the province that it's built (this would definitely help some nations like EA Atlantis). It would also allow greater diversity as to soldiers' equipment. For instance, with Niefelheim, a Niefel giant comes equipped with an axe, a shield, and leather armor. With a Forge, a Niefel soldier could be created who was armed with a flail or a spear or a greatsword, and scale or plate armor. Naturally, these unit improvements would cost double the normal resource price for identical equipment for an "off-the-shelf" soldier, because that nation makes that specific equipment for that unit better than it does specialty equipment. Also, some nations would have greater variety and different (better or worse) equipment selection for it's troops. Ulm would have the best equipment, but a nation with lots of diversity and trade partners, like Ermor, would have the widest range. I don't think it would be too hard to program into the game, and it would make for a lot of strategic and modding possibilities. Provinces without Forges wouldn't be able to create or transfer magic items, while ritual spells would continue to require labs. Alternate to creating a whole other system for soldiers' equipment would be that some units require a Forge to be produced, such as Living Pillars with their basalt armor or a Niefel giant armed with a flail. These units could still be Capital-based, while allowing tougher units to be built away from your Capital (decentralization is a fine strategy, ask the Turks who conquered Constantinople, or the Mongols for that matter). The Forge could also give provinces a bonus to gold and resources, representing trade and improved infrastructure, without having to put up a castle in the area. Ofcourse, having a castle would still be great for a province, and Forges would be more expensive than temples or labs, at 600 gold a piece (300 for Ulm).

[DrPraetorious]

There are several forge *sites*.

I don't think it is possible to build any national units in provinces without fortresses. AFAIK, this is pretty fundamental to how the game handles unit production. Likewise, it would require a major rewrite

Other than that, what you're suggesting is obviously out of the scope of current modability - but I don't think it would be a problem in principle. You'd need to introduce some new commands -

-- Building modding
#selectbuilding <nbr>

This enables you to select buildings other than 1 (the temple) and 2 (the lab).

#defaultcost <cost>
#defaultpic <file>
#end
Would be all you'd need to set requirements for your new building. Other than that, you need site commands to give the building stuff it can do - like add recruitable units and so forth. Set the cost to a negative number to make the building disabled by default.

-- In nation modding, add:
#buildingcost <nbr> <cost>

To change the cost of a given building for a given nation. If 0 is temple and 1 is lab, that'd enable us to mod those easily.

-- And in unit modding, add:
#customreq <nbr>

Where <nbr> is the building number.

I'm sure you can see how you'd use this to add Forges, and units that require forges (which would then have an increased resource cost.) They'd require a Fortification, as well, unless everyone who build a Forge got them.

[Endoperez]

Forge, as in a place to build equipment, a place for gathering resources, the places where living is easy and where work is available, a place where tools are sold, and food as well, and where markets are established... Place where your people will gather, where they can live, where they can be levied and given proper equipment and put to fight. They're called forts in Dominions.

Now, if you want a forge for improving excisting units... there really isn't a way to do that. The closest thing is the broken armor tag, which is repaired when there are unused resources in a province the units with broken armor are in. Other than that and magic items, restricted to commanders, different equipment would mean different unitand that'd mean making a better-armored version of almost everything.

[HoneyBadger]

I have no problem with forge + fort being required, I probably was confusing in the way I wrote it though, but that's what I meant. Uh-nu-buh, I like your idea, providing it can be nation-specific. It's not a perfect solution, but it would help. Endoperez-Fort as in 4 walls and a roof. There's no reason that a forge couldn't be in addition to a fortress rather than assumed a part of it, or a part of a magical lab. Forges had a lot more intrinsic meaning to them-socially, spiritually, and economically-than we tend to give them credit for, especially the further back in time you go. A forge would be the beginning and perhaps the heart of a major marketplace, but it wouldn't encompass a bazaar. It also may attract a population, but it wouldn't be the only feature of a community. Resources would be gathered from farms, mines, quarries, and lumberyards. Forges would only maybe turn ore into iron or work basalt into armor, not collect it. Same thing with wood, leather (tannery, pasture), etc. People may move to a location with a forge, but they certainly wouldn't live in a forge, maybe just the smith on cold winter nights. They'd be a lot more likely to live in a temple. A lot of what you mentioned above could go hand-in-hand with a temple, which were natural centers of communities, as were forges.

I'm also thinking that a Forge would be required to build any kind of field-artillery or field-fortification pieces (which the game could use, and sadly lacks for every nation, even Ermor), and Province Defence may be of a better quality in provinces with a Forge.

[Endoperez]

"Imagine trying to live without an available smithy before 1860, or even later in some comunities not readily reached by rail or ship. It simply could notbe done without revenrting to the Stone Age. Certainly, many of our pioneers learned to substitute wood for iron in many instances, but even this would have been virtually impossible without the irreducible minimum of iron and steel tools such as axes and knives and hammers.
The traditional blacksmith's most important function, until mass production replaced him as a tradesman, was supplying the tools of civilization and war. In a large city or a small backwoods settlement he would make, according to his own design or that of his patrons, the hammers, axes, adzes, plane bits, knives, sickles, scythes, auger bits, files, chisels, carving tools, spears, swords, arrowheads, and all other necessities of the various farmers and craftsmen found in a community. All crafstmen were basically dependent on the blacksmith's skill and availability."
The Art of Blacksmithing, by Alex W. Bealer, revised edition

Forges were everywhere. Smelters for making metal weren't quite as common, as most iron and steel could be reworked many times. The aforementioned book describes piles of scrap-metal as a necessary and unavoidable part of any smith's backyard. It also describes simple smelters which could be used virtually everywhere. Making iron didn't become organized industry until the 13th century (when the Catalan furnace was developed), and while this would fit the MA/LA timeframe of Dominions, it wouldn't have the mythical qualities you would give it; that would be simply a way to increase resources, already available to some nations (Ulm) as a resource bonus in forts.


EDIT: it's surprising how little 'lrage' has to do with 'large'.

[HoneyBadger]

Ofcourse there's going to be SOME forging going on, unless you're talking about Mictlan or Agartha or probably Arco or Sauromatia or C'tis or...well most of EA seem to be using-or could be assumed to be using-copper or bronze. One can assume that Ulm discovered steel-or iron that they're calling steel, or possibly perfected it to the point where it was superior to bronze, but even Jotuns may be using mostly stone and bronze weapons. Iron should be very scarce in EA. Even in the middle age, before the invention of the Catalan furnace, master smiths are going to be rare. Sure the local yokel can shoe a horse, but create a Flambeau? or a Gate Cleaver? or an Elf Bane? Even so, only 1 in 100 or 200 or more people are going to have the basic blacksmithing skills. Bronze and copper are more expensive in the long run, but they're going to be common. And iron did have mythical qualities, so did good weapons and armor, often enough. We're also not talking 13th century until perhaps late age, and I'm not convinced late age would run that late, since that's about when gunpowder started showing up in Europe. Until that furnace was invented however, you and that book are correct about the piles of scrap iron, but what you're not realizing is that scrap iron isn't by itself a resource in terms of Dom3 because that's metal that has been produced and is now being recycled. It's already accounted for and can be explained away as the source of Ulm's (and others) bonus resources.

I really suspect, if you give equal amounts of thought to old established concepts and new concepts, that a magic item capable Forge (capable of atleast producing obsidian glaives and basalt armour, and of producing under mage guidance even artifacts) supplied with rare materials and gems, and a master smith (in addition to atleast a dozen other highly skilled artizans, apprentices/journeymen, and pure artists) not only experienced in smithing and other arts to a high degree, but in low-level enchanting and field-combat engineering, equipped with several magically altered forges, anvils, and smelters, themselves made of magical or enchanted materals and/or designed by magical beings (or possibly even embodying magical beings themselves-imagine forging a dwarven hammer on the back of a bound earth elemental, or a hellsword on a black steel anval that imprisons the soul of a devil)-large specialized equipment in large specialized rooms for creating golems, iron dragons, juggernauts, field artillery and war machines-is no less reasonable as a separate entity than a temple overseen by educated, intelligent priests, incenses, icons, wines, catacombs, crematories, and/or cemetaries for the processing of the dead, secret, sacred chambers where the religion's mysteries occur, and where the Pretender may be summoned back on earth, and possibly small manufactories for the production of goods and books, and the temple's local lands and properties-which may be extensive, or a magical laboratory-probably in some kind of wizard's tower, or atleast heavily guarded against thieves, overseen by apprentices and master alchemists, filled with the rarest of materials and chemical items, as well as atleast a dozen expensive, fragile apparati, expensive devices made from gold, silver, and gems, a secure place to house living blood slaves in relative comfort, separate from one another, until sacrifice, autopsy rooms, torture rooms, and charnals for housing corpses, and permanent consecrated-or desecrated-areas for the summoning of angelic or demonic beings-not to mention elementals and undead spirits-areas which would have to be secure against both extremely powerful and dangerous beings such as demon lords, and tampering-intentional or unintentional.

I'm not suggesting throwing up a dozen buildings, it's just to me reasonable that wildly different things-like producing fine axes and spells which cause forests to turn mean, be a little more separated and a little more complicated, because it would add to the game, not because I want the game bogged down

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

It's a great idea, but the way you portray it would require the developers to do it, and I believe it would be a major effort.

Another way to do it would be a mod with a special Place called The Forge that allowed 4 new units: x, y, z, and p. You could have several special places:

Iron Forge: several types of light infantry (not rare)
Steel Forge: sevearl types of heavy infantry (rare)
Adamantium Forge: several types of super heavy infantry with low encumbrance/fatigue(super rare)

The Corral: sev tps of lt cavalry
War Corral: sev tps of hvy cavalry
Circus Corral: sev tps of super cavalry like elephants, rhinos, and giant mutant humans a la freak lord

Archery Range: sev tps of archers
Mech Range: sev tps of xbow archers (pistol, auto, hvy, small arbalests)
Siege Works: catapult units, arbalest units, etc.

Likey?