Newbie Here, with a few newbie Questions.

[kongxinga]

Greetings.
I have messed around with wargames before trying out spww2, and I have fooled around a bit with Sp WAW, and read the manual, so I hpe I am not totally clueless.

I am really excited with the prospect of being able to play NatChi on a long Campaign (SP WAW does not have that, not to mention a very weird OOB for China. Personally I feel Overlord Squads sounds much better than Dare Death Squads, although Daredeath is a more literal Translation)

How ever I am running into a few snags as I start my first mission of several aborted campaigns.

1. Back in Sp WAW, my usual opponent was ChiCom, which only had 1 tank type that comes late in the War. Thus I usually took along quite a tank heavy force to blow up the armoured cars then run amok with impunity. In the long campaign of Spww2, I invariably have to fight against Japan. Knowing that they have tough infantry, I took a long some Mg tanks along with armoured cars with good armour peircing values (Shanghai m .31). However, my tanks die to Japanese infantry at 6 hexes range or more (my infantry does do a good job in suppressing the Japanese squads). Checking the logs, I see a hit from a grenade launcher that has no AP properties KOing my tanks. How is this possible?

2. Another annoying thing is that Japan always brings along lots of planes. My weak tanks have no top armour, so any spotted tanks usually go down from bombs, causing my other tanks to rout, which causes my militia cannon fodder to rout, which starts a general chain rout. I have crossed attached my squads to various companies, and kept everyone within communication range. I believe Chinese Morale averages at a respectable 60 ( compared with a very low 30 in Sp waw). What is causing this chain rout? Should I put my militia away from my officers and elite troops? Won't they run even faster when seperated? And seriously, what is wrong with my tankers? They have armour command values of low teens. Are these guys professional tankers, or infantry men snatched from their unit and plonked into tanks?

3. Knowing the situation, I searched the encyclopedia for AA weapons. I see China gets a type 24 AAMG in 1930 (I am playing a june 1931 battle btw). However, try as I might, I find that I am unable to find them on the purchase screen. I searched Arty for them, and I checked each and every squad in the infantry purchase, but I can't find the type 24 AAMG. I do find type 24 HMGs, but these don't seem to have AA capacity. Where are these elusive weapons? I mean OOB designers can't really leave China out to dry with no AA weapons right?

4. In some games, I get a good map that forces Japan to dash across open ground while my heavy Mgs tear them apart. That is the best situation. Usually, I get a very heavily forested area, and our squads stuble into each other. My scouts have the honor of dying in minutes, as the normal Japanese Squads usually spot them first, and Banzai charge them if the nades don't kill them. Then my Pioneers/ overlords stumble into their support sqads, and get ripped apart, despite my squads being close combat specialists. I can't drop arty on the enemy (due to poor arty skill that causes long lags and huge drifts). What would be good advice for this situation?

5. Last question. I dimly recall that almost every squad could call arty in SP WAW, but in SP ww2 it seems limited. Who exactly can call arty? The arty delays in this game is horrible!

Thanks so much. I am really itching to kick some Japanese/ Communist troops around. This game is quite a blast to play.

[DRG]

Hello

First. I know you're only reference is WaW but forget WaW. WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT are entirely different variations on Steel Panthers.

Point 1] WHICH tank and WHICH Grenade launcher ?? If you are speaking of the same tanks you refer to in your point 2 as "My weak tanks have no top armour" then that's your answer. No top armour but I can only guess which ones you mean without a save game

Point 2] I would really have to see a save game to comment further. Check your preferences. You may have inadvertently set your troop quality to a low number. When I set up a test game in August 1931 with NatChi tanks the armour command ratings are generally in the 60's

Point 3] It's there but the formation's set up to appear in 1936. Typo error. Should be 1930. Change formation 27 in the NatChi OOB ( 27 ) to a start date of 1/30

Point 4] "area fire" into the hex's before entering. Hit the area with mortars before moving forward. Select more open maps until you gain more experience with the game

Point 5] Only unit commanders and Artillery observers and the HQ unit can call arty. Look for the "0" units ( B0, C0 D0 etc etc ). The Chinese do not have very good artillery delays that early in the war. Nobody really does in the early 1930's. You will find by the early 1940's those delay numbers will be nearly 1/2 what they are in 1931. If you look at the Japanese for the same time period you will discover that they aren't much better in that era but they also improve once you enter the 1940s


Don

[Mobhack]

SPWAW is a different game by a different group, which is nothing to do with us. Therefore, it is unwise to expect too much similarity in the ways things work. Especially as our code uses SPII as a base, and thiers SPIII.

1) these may be the 5cm so-called "knee mortars" - they may well disable tin-clad tankettes. I presume you have the carden lloyds? - class 1 all round. Warhead size does add to the HE kill, though HE AP needs a very good dice roll unless way over the nominal plate armour. These GL have WH 3. HE ammo though does not get the critical hit advantage in direct fire mode - only AP rounds do.

2)Japan has the air superiority most of the time. Aircraft tend to spot vehicles first over infantry.
Exploding friendly tanks nearby is not good for morale, and neither is having troops in rout, especially for units with fragile morale, and the militia are certainly that!. I would not buy them, exept maybe as auxiliaries in a "speed bump" role in defence (being dug in helps).

3) the AAMG formation only starts in 1936. The unit is available from 1930 on, but it is the formation availability that counts. Formation 27 in the OOB - see Mobhack. That will be because whoever designed that OOB decided there was no effective nationalist AAA before then. However since the unit is available - you can upgrade between battles from a suitable core unit type (e.g. HMG).

4) If you don't like the generated map - then by all means re-spin it with the map editing controls available in the purchase screen. (Game Guide - "Purchase Screen" link, "View Map" button, also GG, "View Map" link).

As to the arty delay - why wait till you bump into the enemy? - the whole point of arty is that it can fire into areas that are "blind" to you. Simply call in fire ahead of your troops advance a little ahead of when you expect contact then when it is falling, use the adjustment keys to repeat missions a few hexes further forward with little delay and advance behind arolling barrage. (invest in ammo supply units).

5) SPWAW was based on the same SPIII code that assumed every unit was a platoon of 2 or more "points" (and you could choose to show them as 3 or 4 tichy little mini-icons) - so it probably still does. Therefore each unit was a command (0) element able to call fire.
This game is of course not based on the SPIII Brigade-level code with platoon-level units, here units are individuals. Just like SPI and SPII, only observers and formation commanders can call for arty fires.

I've just checked the Natinalist Chinese WW2 LC - and there is an error which will not allow the communist or nationalist chinese warlords as opponents - and will be fixed for next release. (the same syntax error was copied over into the chicom LC as well .

Cheers
Andy

[Mobhack]

Oh - and a point I forgot to mention - remeber to set your artillery Quick Reaction hexes to where you think contact will occur, for a faster response. Arty fire comes quicker onto pre-registered targets, and has less drift.

Cheers
Andy

[kongxinga]

Thanks for the quick replies.

Now to make sure I get the all the useful info.

1. Repeat to self. "SP:WAW is not WinSPWW2"

2. The reason my tanks are getting nailed is due to a lucky top hit, or getting hit by a mortar. Yes they are tin coffins (Ft-17 Tg and Ft-17 MG). So I guess I should try to keep a bit more distance with the Japanese Squads.

3. I don't get it. Am I supposed to get a formation for AAMGs in 1931, or is everything working as intended, and Nat Chi is not allowed a AA formation early in the war (very true, NatChi had very little credible AA assets ( there was nothing to shoot at), and the game represents it very well by allowing them a pea shooter AAMG as the only AA weapon. I miss the Bofors from WAW .)?

I guess if it is the secound case, I better grin and bear the planes in the first mission, and quickly upgrade my HMGs to AAMGs.

3. About the tankers who look like infantrymen. I loaded another campaign, bought a few armour groups, and checked their armour command ratings of the officers. They still have armour ratings in the teens, but with pretty decent infantry command ratings of 60s. Now I am not complaining about this at all (very historical, a few of my distant relatives talked about how rare it was to even see a tank, much less find someone who knew how to drive and use it), but when I look into the manual and see that nice example officer with decent armour command ratings, and then look at my own tankers running after a few shots and generally missing the enemy, I get the feeling the KMT army has reached the bottom of the barrel and are assigning random conscripts who may have never seen a engine in their lives to command tanks. I mean, heck, my pioneers ( guess they know engineering) and a few infantry have better armour command ratings. Is this a bug, or a cool feature that adds a lot of historical flavour? I am playing on default historical troop quality by the way.

4. On artillery strikes. I guess I have been spoiled by WAW, becuase artillery there hits very fast, often at the end of MY turn. I do plot priority fire hexes and plot missions in advance (mostly on crossroads/towns/ victory hexes), but I hesitate in plotting it inside the jungle. Why? My troops will have to move through the forest eventually, and low morale+ suppression and casualties from fires are a deadly combination. I will give it a try to see what happens though.

A secound point why I don't plot arty until I see the enemy is because I believe there is a severe accuracy/delay penalty if the spotter has no LOS to the target. Should I just ignore it and go blow up the jungle anyways? I have several hilarious incidents of friendly artillery missing the targets by a mile, and hitting my ammo mules, causing havoc and a chain rout when I tried artillery missions without LOS.

5. On Militia. I bought them as support troops, becuase I would rather the militia bump into the Japanese troops rather than my core troops. I guess they are quite the liability. Any suggestions on what to get for support? I always thought support was supposed to be cheap and expendable. Does NatChi have any Off Map artillery at all?

6. On spotters for artillery. From what I gather, any X0 unit can call for artillery? So say I buy a sniper and he spots some enemy troops? Can he call artillery, as he is a X0 unit? Should I have bought a dedicated FO? I used to use my scouts to call for artilllery.


7. On the Long Campaign. Hurray! Someday I can even fight warlords. Would it be possible to have the Chinese Communist forces buy Soviet Allied Support troops late in the war for flavour ( representing soviet advisers)? That would give the NatChi player a NATsty shock. The level of support in this game is amazing.

Once again, great game and thanks for all the help.

[DRG]

kongxinga said:
3. I don't get it. Am I supposed to get a formation for AAMGs in 1931, or is everything working as intended, and Nat Chi is not allowed a AA formation early in the war (very true, NatChi had very little credible AA assets ( there was nothing to shoot at), and the game represents it very well by allowing them a pea shooter AAMG as the only AA weapon. I miss the Bofors from WAW .)?

I guess if it is the secound case, I better grin and bear the planes in the first mission, and quickly upgrade my HMGs to AAMGs.

The AAMG UNITS are available in 1930 but the FORMATION that puts them in the game doesn't start until 1936. That's an error. That formation ( 27 ) should start 1930. You can change that with MOBHack

kongxinga said:
3. About the tankers who look like infantrymen. I loaded another campaign, bought a few armour groups, and checked their armour command ratings of the officers. They still have armour ratings in the teens, but with pretty decent infantry command ratings of 60s. Now I am not complaining about this at all (very historical, a few of my distant relatives talked about how rare it was to even see a tank, much less find someone who knew how to drive and use it), but when I look into the manual and see that nice example officer with decent armour command ratings, and then look at my own tankers running after a few shots and generally missing the enemy, I get the feeling the KMT army has reached the bottom of the barrel and are assigning random conscripts who may have never seen a engine in their lives to command tanks. I mean, heck, my pioneers ( guess they know engineering) and a few infantry have better armour command ratings. Is this a bug, or a cool feature that adds a lot of historical flavour? I am playing on default historical troop quality by the way.

See what I said the first time about a SAVE GAME. I cannot see what you see without one. EVERY time I load a regular game in the time period you mentioned OR a campaign I see armoured units with leader armour ratings in the high 50's to mid 60's generally. There are no officer armour ratings in the teens.

There could be a dozen reason why you are seeing what you are seeing including incorrectly set prefences or simply misreading the rating. If it's the game I haven't found any proof so if you are seeing armour officer leader ratings in the teens your're going to need to provide me with a save game or a screen shot. I just checked 8 Nat China tanks in a campaign set up to start August 1931 and here are the armour command ratings for those eight tanks

64
58
69
53
64
66
56
67

The armour command rating in this game is the last line of the ratings and is just above the "kills" line. Are you sure your reading the correct line becasue when I checked I can see LOTS of ARTILLERY command ratings in the teens for these tanks

Don

[Mobhack]

there is off map arty in the 30s - formations 89-92.

(Open Mobhack, load Nationalist china - use the menu for database check utilities, and in formation tab, select the check unit class sub-tab, and select appropriate class will show all formations that contain such - class 10, and class 155. The unit check tabs will do the same for all units).

As to firing arty blind - if you are searching an area, then why not - if there is reasonable separation from your troops. You wil need to determine "danger close" for your troops capabilities. Maybe 500 yards (20 hexes) in front, since your troops wil be fragile till they reach 75+ experience, on recieving any friendly drop-shorts. I am happy enough to drop it 3-4 hexes in front of e.g UK, GE or RUS troops in the 40s on. And I really do not bother much to get FOOS up front - if visibility is good I will put them on a dminating hill perhaps. In the assault - I may call the first rounds onto a critical bunker with the FOO at the rear, for the quicker call time, and then once his mission has arrived and completed, take it over with a nearby line HQ unit with LOS, using fire-adjustment rather than a complete call from scratch.

Militia type troops are not much use as support if going forwards. Can be useful speed bumps in defence, if positioned in a good defensive area. Woods, towns, rough, or shell an area of your defended zone with heavy arty (for craters) and move them into that after.

When advancing - support points go on arty, mortars, ammo units for onmap arty, a few scouts and scout vehicles maybe, some support APC for your leg grunts perhaps, engineers etc. About the only use for militia I could see in the attack is as a second wave - to take over and hold taken objectives while the more reliable troops exploit onwards.

The Communist Chinese were not supplied with Soviet armour in the civil war period (I have modified the 5/45 WW2 LC onwards so it is guaranteed coms fight nats in both LCs, this is one of the longest WW2 LCS you can take part in - 30 to 48). They used captured japanese tanks (as did the nationalists, though they had some USA supplies too) - but even then, Stalin did not get on with the Chinese Communists and thier "impure" socialist doctrine (in other words they did not kow-tow to Moscow and were impertinent enough to desire independance from the Soviet CCP). So the only Russian stuff available is in the 30s when SU, Italy, and Germany were active advisors in the area. And even then - the Chicom tanks were used more as "bateries" of armoured sp-arty in the direct infantry support role than in any sort of maneuver/cavalry role.

Wiki is not a useful/reliable source - but useful as a starting point e.g Wiki article.

As for PLA tanks Birth of the PLA tank force covers that. Basically - the Soviets did supply 100 tanks and 700 arty pieces - but war booty from the Japanese surrender, and not USSR models. And the tank force was initially designated as "Mobile Artillery" up to 1949, when the actual PLA Tank Force was born.

Cheers
Andy

[kongxinga]

Again, many thanks for the replies.

I have figured out the weird tankers problem.
The thing is, I am buying what is called "Armour Group" which is composed of 2 MotorBikes, 4 tanks, and 4 armoured cars a company. The leader (ie the X0 unit), is a guy stationed on a motor bike. From what I guess, motorbikes are modelled like infantry here, as they die one casualty at a time, unlike SP: WAW where even bicycle infantry tended to blow up like tanks. Thus, the officer on a motorbike would naturally have high infantry command ratings, although the tank command ratings in the teens really hurt. So much for lending his experience to the tanks. I might plonk him a bit closer to the attached support infantry squads though, as he has really nice infantry command skills.

This seems something that could be very confusing to a newbie. Perhaps that small note that very briefly touches on "mixed formations" in the manual be expanded?

As for Soviet Allied Support Troops, I think I meant advisers ( that is , a few units of Russian commando/scout/forward observer infantry units commanded by Soviet officers). I am not sure if they actually participated in actual combat, but it is hard to deny their extensive presence. I vaguely recall a captured IJN ship ordered to randomly fire at the coast to expend its Japanese ammo as it was going to be refitted. It ended up killing by plain accident more Soviet advisers than communist troops.

I must admit I really must be incompetent. What are these Off Board Artillery formations called in the purchase screen? I assume it would be labelled something like Off Board Howitzers or something. I have bought many Off map arty in SP: MBT, but my support artillery purchase screen here seems to offer only on board artillery. I am clueless with Mobhack, so I can't really do anything there.

I am still learning the game, so I guess Mobhack editing is out for me. I guess I will play a few games to learn the game while waiting for the next patch before starting on the epic campaign (1930-1948 Fun!). Thanks for the support advice, trucks it is for my pioneers (unlike you German/ Russian/ American/ Marines/ British etc players, NatChi does not get the luxury of APCs until really late in the war). I will try plotting arty much further from my troops than now and see how that goes.

As I guess I am a clueless newbie, two more questions have sprung up. I notice it is a common strategy for people to buy their HQ a command vehicle after the first mission. I am thinking of getting my HQ a truck (no APCs, so let us hope it does not get stuck in mud). My question is, am I supposed to get the HQ a specific type of vehicle ( that is, something labelled "command Vehicle", or any vehicle can do? If my HQ is riding in a truck, can it still do its duties (rallying, plotting arty, lending experience)?

On a tactics note, since I am sure not many people play NatChi, how does other countries deal with the jungle fighting that occurs with Japan (like say playing as the USMC). The situation I am talking about is that your infantry are in the forest, and you are pretty sure the Japanese are in the same forest. You don't really want to do area fire to flush them out, as the Japanese severely outclass use in medium range firepower with those grenade launchers and support squads, so revealing your and their positions by firing is not really a good idea. I guess this situation does not really apply to the USMC as they also have insane medium range fire power and godly close combat skills, like the Japanese, but what would be a possible solution, from everyone's experience fighting Japanese troops?

Thanks for all the help.