Fire-9 bless needs rebalancing !

[Arralen]

Balancing Issue

Fire-9+ bless is exceedingly good for certain nations at least, worth about 2x than any other bless, and making the blesseable troops way too strong for their price (what all other blesses don't!)

Why?

The level-9 gives not only +4 ATT, moving most troops from the 40-50% to-hit range to 80%+. It also does:

FIRE BLESSING
Kristoffer O
#269728 - 26/05/04 12:53 AM
Fire blessing is one extra 8 AP hit if the primary attack hits. A hero with 4 attacks (2 sword of swiftness perhaps) will get up to four additional 8 AP hits.

So every single melee attack gets an additional flaming weapon hit - not only 1 attack per unit. This is even true for natural weapons, spider fangs and bites and claws at least - obviously, if a target spontaniously bursts into flames, it must have been hit by a flaming weapon.

Problem is obvious: Troops with multiple attacks get multiple additional attacks, too. Eg. Mictlan Jaguar Warriors are sacred and have 3 weapons (Bite (20), Claw (29) x 2) in Jaguar form .. they end up with 6 attacks per turn at ATT-15, which makes pretty much sure they hit mundane troops.

Compare that to sacred Jotuns:
- The Jaguar comes @20 gold and with 30hp (total). With ATT-15 it can hit the Jotun Woodsmen (DEF-10) with 89.2% (2.68 hits per turn). Each of this to-hit rolls results in a 18+2d6oe damage roll AND a 8(AP)+2d6oe. Against Furs, accordings to Cherry's tables this results in 2.68x(16.06+4.75)= 55.77 damage points after it turned into a Jaguar (and soaked up the first 24+ damage points that way). Even if all damage rolls are low one turn and the target is not killed, it still gets -6(!) DEF for the rest of the turn. Furthermore, excess attacks from multiple weapon may spread to other units in the same square ... to kill e.g. the Vaetti next to the Jotun as well. On top of it, the fire attack could cause burning (-1hp) for at least one turn.

- The Jotun Woodsmen comes @50 gold for 32hp. It's to-hit with ATT-12 against DEF-11 of the Jaguar result in 85.5%, or 0.855 hits per turn. Damage rolls are 31+2d6oe + 8(AP)+2d6oe, or (against natural prot-5) 0.855x(26+3.99) = 25.6 damage points.

So, with F-9 bless, both the Woodman and the Jaguar have roughly equal HP and DEF, but the "damage output potential" of the Jaguar is 2,2 times that of the Woodman, but it costs only 40% !!

To compare the results with those of N-9 or W-9 bless I'll leave as an exercise for interested reader...

[Endoperez]

Fire 9 might be better than other blessings, but I don't think it's as unbalanced as you think. Nature 9, as an example, isn't worth it for Pythium, but is very much so for Jotunheim, and especially Niefelheim. One could also consider Schools - Blood is very good for Mictlan, and Construction is good for almost everyone, but most nations benefit more from other schools.

Fire 9 is useful when you can have a sacred unit with good gold/number-of-attacks cost. It works for Flagellants, and for Jaguar Warriors. It's also good for sacred units that have good survivability, but have problems dealing damage, like Vanir and Sidhe.

On the other hand, Water can make high-defence units almost untouchable, Earth can multiply Pythium's Communicants' power, Regenerating Jotun and Niefel are very, *very* deadly... Most blessings have their place. I'd rather see all sacred unit become useful, with at least one spesific blessing, and preferably with many, without making other national units useless (or more useless than they currently are, if that's what you think). This can include toning down of Fire 9.

One thing I'd like to see are blessings that are enabled by combinations of spesific paths, or maybe even paths and scales. Fire 9 and Astral 9 could make your sacred units resistant to hostile magic, and all other current powers - but also make their flaming attacks work much better against Undead and Demons. The ultimate Marignon bless. And maybe Water 9 and Cold 3 would give your sacred units benefits in cold areas - more protection, maybe, or maybe their weapons could be considered magical. Astral and Nature could give a chance to curse any enemy hit by the blessed, OR that hurts one of the blessed, in addition to all the other effects.

Just my pile of cents blundered from a pirate ship.

[Endoperez]

Fire 9 might be better than other blessings, but I don't think it's as unbalanced as you think. Nature 9, as an example, isn't worth it for Pythium, but is very much so for Jotunheim, and especially Niefelheim. One could also consider Schools - Blood is very good for Mictlan, and Construction is good for almost everyone, but most nations benefit more from other schools.

Fire 9 is useful when you can have a sacred unit with good gold/number-of-attacks cost. It works for Flagellants, and for Jaguar Warriors. It's also good for sacred units that have good survivability, but have problems dealing damage, like Vanir and Sidhe.

On the other hand, Water can make high-defence units almost untouchable, Earth can multiply Pythium's Communicants' power, Regenerating Jotun and Niefel are very, *very* deadly... Most blessings have their place. I'd rather see all sacred unit become useful, with at least one spesific blessing, and preferably with many, without making other national units useless (or more useless than they currently are, if that's what you think). This can include toning down of Fire 9.

One thing I'd like to see are blessings that are enabled by combinations of spesific paths, or maybe even paths and scales. Fire 9 and Astral 9 could make your sacred units resistant to hostile magic, and all other current powers - but also make their flaming attacks work much better against Undead and Demons. The ultimate Marignon bless. And maybe Water 9 and Cold 3 would give your sacred units benefits in cold areas - more protection, maybe, or maybe their weapons could be considered magical. Astral and Nature could give a chance to curse any enemy hit by the blessed, OR that hurts one of the blessed, in addition to all the other effects.

Just my pile of cents blundered from a pirate ship.

[shovah]

dont think f9 is overpowered? just wait for my f9+high air blessed flagelants with the sword of augmler to come for you . cheap, expenable, survivable out of combat and deadly in combat

[shovah]

dont think f9 is overpowered? just wait for my f9+high air blessed flagelants with the sword of augmler to come for you . cheap, expenable, survivable out of combat and deadly in combat

[Endoperez]

shovah said:
dont think f9 is overpowered? just wait for my f9+high air blessed flagelants with the sword of augmler to come for you . cheap, expenable, survivable out of combat and deadly in combat

What can they do against Abysian infantry? Or against Blade Wind, which goes (IIRC) through Air Shield? Or Magma Eruption? Or Falling Frost? Or Devils (with which Witch Hunters could easily deal with, though)? Or W9-blessed Vanir? Besides, they aren't resistant to any element, or poison, or magic... They'll die in dozens against any enemy by the time you have researched Construction 8.

And, if you want to take Artifacts into account... Forbidden Light blinds all of them, as does Ark, Barrier and a decent armor makes almost any unit quite resistant to all their attacks, The Aegis, fire immunity from other source(s) and good protection would kill them even without attacking, and if I had the Flying Ship, your forces would never catch mine.


Granted, Fire 9 is very powerful for Marignon. That happens to be very thematic! Sacred, heretic-burning flames of faith should be powerful. And they work for Knights of the Chalice as well as they work for Flagellants. I'm just saying that some other nations can benefit more from different blessing, and that I'd like to see different blessings become a viable alternative more often that they currently are.

Powerful isn't overpowered unless all other options aren't worth considering, and Fire 9 is quite close to being overpowered for many nations. I'd rather see 8, or even more, powerful, different, multifaceted blessings than 8 decent, balanced, boring ones.

[shovah]

actually the air shield+the sword of augmler makes them rather survivable and they are so cheap that even if they dont work on something its no big loss (get chalice knights out)

[archaeolept]

yah f9 is great for flags or jaguar warriors. I would say it is overall the best bless, but a lot of it is that many of the other blesses are underpowered...

[Endoperez]

shovah said:
actually the air shield+the sword of augmler makes them rather survivable and they are so cheap that even if they dont work on something its no big loss (get chalice knights out)

If I paid for Fire 9 AND Air 6 (as an example) AND researched Constr. 8 AND forged S5 item for 80 pearls (or even for 60, if I had a Dwarven Hammer somehow)... I would expect it to work. But that's only one army. And if I used similar resources to something else, I could oppose your forces in multiple different ways.

[archaeolept]

well, I think Shovah is referring to the currently running "Artifact Game"; not as a general point of strategy.

However, fire flags or fire jags are a very cheap way to dominate early. I like having junk national troops that can take down a full-fledged SC