[Baalz]

Well, I get the impression that EH would support my premise rather than refuting it. Dominions has enough of a random element that even a weak player (which EH is not) can start next to an even weaker player, and another who stales a lot and another who is already fighting on three fronts and before you know it stumble into a win even with good players on the map. I guess my point is, the fact that somebody won with them once doesn't really mean too much.

@QM: Yes, the kelp fortress is a nice boon (if you don't also happen to be playing with very difficult research. :/ ), and they've got a couple decent options for fairly rapid expansion against indies. The problem is, what then? And it doesn't start when they try to leave the water, it starts as soon as any amount of research is done. Even if you luck into a couple kelp fortresses very early and leverage it into a redneck rush I can't see you having any chance against the second nation you fight with, assuming reasonable skill levels all around. You've just got nothing to back up your troops (which while not terrible, aren't great), and not even anything to look forward to as research progresses. If you consider the situation out of water this goes from terrible to absolutely ridiculous.

@Xietor and Meglobob: clam nerfs do hurt Oceana, but I think that's a bit of a secondary issue. I don't even think Oceana is a particularly good clam hoarder. With just a little bit of work (or a little bit of luck) any nation can scrape together a couple clam forgers which is all you generally need to exhaust your water income. Oceana can't even forge hammers.

The thing is, even without the clam nerf you've got to survive quite a long time before clamming can give enough income to be a central facet to your power in a totally non-astral nation. Yeah, chain wishing is nice, but clams don't really do too terrible much for you up until that point.