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Scen Editor vs OOB?

I'm playing around with the German OOB, but have a question: in the scenario editor (set for 6/41), when I click on "Panzer Gruppe", there are several choices for type of tank (various Pz IIIs, PzKw 35(t), PzKw 38(t), etc.). But in the stock German OOB, there seem to be only two "Panzer Gruppes"--one with PzKw IIIEs, and one with King Tigers...where are the rest of the tank types?

I read the editor manual, and thought that different kinds of tanks could be dealt with via different availability dates, but there are no other tanks in these gruppes. Morever, all of the tanks in the scenario editor are available as of 6/41, so I don't think that "availablity" would help anyway.

So what am I doing wrong, where are these other tank platoons?

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

The basic Panzer Gruppe ( Formation 13 ) draws all the tank choices from all medium tanks available from whatever date you have set for the game or editor. What you see in the OOB itself are the Template units that formation uses and in the case of Panzer Gruppe that is the PzKw IIIE 3.7cm but that Template unit is just a placeholder for all Medium tanks available in the time period you are viewing.

Ultimately though the entire span of time the Panzer Gruppe exists ( 6/39 - 12/46 ) these are all of the Medium tanks types that will become available when the Gruppe is selected between their in and out of service dates.

Searching for Units of class 13 Medium Tank
007 - PzKw IIIE 3.7cm - Available 06/040 to 08/041
008 - PzKw III F 5cm - Available 08/040 to 02/041
009 - PzKw III G 5cm - Available 10/040 to 09/041
010 - PzKw III H - Available 01/041 to 03/043
011 - PzKw III J - Available 08/041 to 12/042
012 - PzKw III J/1 - Available 01/042 to 03/042
013 - PzKw III L - Available 04/042 to 03/043
014 - PzKw III M - Available 06/042 to 03/043
015 - PzKw III N - Available 11/042 to 03/043
017 - PzKw 35(t) - Available 06/039 to 05/040
018 - PzKw 38 B(t) - Available 06/040 to 12/041
019 - PzKw 38 E(t) - Available 11/040 to 03/042
026 - PzKw IV H - Available 05/043 to 12/043
027 - PzKw IV J (+) - Available 06/044 to 12/046
028 - PzKw Panther D - Available 07/043 to 03/044
029 - PzKw Panther A - Available 10/043 to 03/044
030 - PzKw Panther G - Available 04/044 to 12/046
171 - Panther G Uhu - Available 02/045 to 12/046
199 - PzKw Panther F - Available 06/045 to 12/046
241 - PzKw IV F VorPz - Available 02/042 to 02/043
279 - PzKw III E - Available 07/039 to 05/040
280 - PzKw 38 (t) - Available 06/039 to 05/040
281 - PzKw 35 (t) - Available 06/040 to 12/041 *has X3 Radio Code*
283 - StuG III Ausf.G - Available 05/043 to 12/043 *has X3 Radio Code*
321 - PzKw IV F1 - Available 11/042 to 12/043
352 - PzKw III A - Available 07/037 to 04/040
373 - PzKw IV F2 - Available 10/042 to 12/042
374 - PzKw IV G - Available 07/042 to 12/042
375 - PzKw Panther A - Available 04/044 to 12/044
377 - PzKw IV H - Available 01/044 to 12/046
378 - PzKw IV G - Available 07/043 to 06/044
381 - StuG III Ausf.G - Available 01/044 to 05/044 *has X3 Radio Code*
389 - PzKw III F 5cm - Available 01/041 to 07/041
396 - PzKw IV E - Available 11/042 to 04/043
404 - PzKw III B/D - Available 11/037 to 08/041
430 - PzKw III L - Available 04/043 to 08/044
431 - PzKw III M - Available 04/043 to 10/044
432 - PzKw III N - Available 04/043 to 12/046
556 - StuG III Ausf.G - Available 06/044 to 09/044 *has X3 Radio Code*
579 - PzKw III F+ 5cm - Available 12/040 to 08/041
583 - PzKw IIIF 3.7cm - Available 07/040 to 02/041
584 - PzKw IIIG 3.7cm - Available 07/040 to 02/041
745 - PzKw IV J - Available 06/044 to 12/046
839 - PzKw IV G - Available 01/043 to 06/043
850 - PzKw III J - Available 01/043 to 09/043
984 - PzKw Panther G - Available 04/044 to 12/046

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

Super-helpful, thanks. In MOBHACK, is there any way to tell which formations in the OOB are templates, and which are the specific units to be used? Or are they all templates?

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

If their name is underlined in the unit menu they are being used as template units in one or more OOB formations

Alternately go to file/ Database Check Utilities then click on the Formation checks tab then the Template unit finder tab and that will show all the units that are used as formation templates. Click on the unit and you will be shown which formations use them.

The template unit for the Panzer Gruppe formation is also the template unit for these

unit 7 PzKw IIIE 3.7cm
Used in Formation 11 Panzer Zug/4
Used in Formation 12 Panzer Zug/5
Used in Formation 13 Panzer Gruppe
Used in Formation 186 Panzer Kp (le)
Used in Formation 201 Panzer Zug /3
Used in Formation 535 Panzer

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

units that are templates in some formation have their name bolded and underlined when displayed in the unit page.

For other template info, use the database check utilities
File -> Database Check Utilities

Once that dialogue is up, look at template units finder and the platoon and company finder tabs

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

:D Ha ! beat you to it

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

Thanks guys, but I'm not sure that I understand things correctly...for instance, for the PzKw 35(t) (I'm not especially interested in this tank, but it is the first issue I noticed), it is not underlined/bolded in the unit list, and the Template Unit Finder does not show that it is used in any templates...but when I go into the Scenario Editor, it is one of the options for medium tank platoon, section, etc. Where is it "coming from" if it is not used in a template?

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

It is of the same unit class as the template unit, so it appears as a choice in that formation at the appropriate date. The template unit determines the unit class of the slot in the formation - any other units may replace it, if of the same unit class.

from the formations tab help of mobhack help, right at the very start:

Quote:

Formation editing causes the most problems in OOB editing.

A formation is a list of 1 to 10 unit templates or formation pointers.

A unit template is one of the things on the units page, funnily enough!. A unit's number from the units page is entered as the template unit for that slot in the formation. The first slot in any formation must be a unit, slots 2 to 9 may be formation pointers in company type formations.

It is important to realise that the unit placed in a formation is a template, not necessarily a representation of that specific unit. The formation pick code will use the Unit Class of the unit placed as a template as its search key when replacing that template with possible units of the exact same class available at that specific battle date. More specifics about template units will be mentioned later.

The bold bit is the important bit

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76mm (Post 846185)

Thanks guys, but I'm not sure that I understand things correctly...for instance, for the PzKw 35(t) (I'm not especially interested in this tank, but it is the first issue I noticed), it is not underlined/bolded in the unit list, and the Template Unit Finder does not show that it is used in any templates...but when I go into the Scenario Editor, it is one of the options for medium tank platoon, section, etc. Where is it "coming from" if it is not used in a template?

Searching for Units of class 13 Medium Tank
007 - PzKw IIIE 3.7cm - Available 06/040 to 08/041
008 - PzKw III F 5cm - Available 08/040 to 02/041
009 - PzKw III G 5cm - Available 10/040 to 09/041
010 - PzKw III H - Available 01/041 to 03/043
011 - PzKw III J - Available 08/041 to 12/042
012 - PzKw III J/1 - Available 01/042 to 03/042
013 - PzKw III L - Available 04/042 to 03/043
014 - PzKw III M - Available 06/042 to 03/043
015 - PzKw III N - Available 11/042 to 03/043
017 - PzKw 35(t) - Available 06/039 to 05/040
018 - PzKw 38 B(t) - Available 06/040 to 12/041
019 - PzKw 38 E(t) - Available 11/040 to 03/042
026 - PzKw IV H - Available 05/043 to 12/043
027 - PzKw IV J (+) - Available 06/044 to 12/046
028 - PzKw Panther D - Available 07/043 to 03/044
029 - PzKw Panther A - Available 10/043 to 03/044
030 - PzKw Panther G - Available 04/044 to 12/046
171 - Panther G Uhu - Available 02/045 to 12/046
199 - PzKw Panther F - Available 06/045 to 12/046
241 - PzKw IV F VorPz - Available 02/042 to 02/043
279 - PzKw III E - Available 07/039 to 05/040
280 - PzKw 38 (t) - Available 06/039 to 05/040
281 - PzKw 35 (t) - Available 06/040 to 12/041 *has X3 Radio Code*
283 - StuG III Ausf.G - Available 05/043 to 12/043 *has X3 Radio Code*
321 - PzKw IV F1 - Available 11/042 to 12/043
352 - PzKw III A - Available 07/037 to 04/040
373 - PzKw IV F2 - Available 10/042 to 12/042
374 - PzKw IV G - Available 07/042 to 12/042
375 - PzKw Panther A - Available 04/044 to 12/044
377 - PzKw IV H - Available 01/044 to 12/046
378 - PzKw IV G - Available 07/043 to 06/044
381 - StuG III Ausf.G - Available 01/044 to 05/044 *has X3 Radio Code*
389 - PzKw III F 5cm - Available 01/041 to 07/041
396 - PzKw IV E - Available 11/042 to 04/043
404 - PzKw III B/D - Available 11/037 to 08/041
430 - PzKw III L - Available 04/043 to 08/044
431 - PzKw III M - Available 04/043 to 10/044
432 - PzKw III N - Available 04/043 to 12/046
556 - StuG III Ausf.G - Available 06/044 to 09/044 *has X3 Radio Code*
579 - PzKw III F+ 5cm - Available 12/040 to 08/041
583 - PzKw IIIF 3.7cm - Available 07/040 to 02/041
584 - PzKw IIIG 3.7cm - Available 07/040 to 02/041
745 - PzKw IV J - Available 06/044 to 12/046
839 - PzKw IV G - Available 01/043 to 06/043
850 - PzKw III J - Available 01/043 to 09/043
984 - PzKw Panther G - Available 04/044 to 12/046

Those formations use Unitclass 13 medium tanks and those 35(t)'s are Unitclass 13 medium tanks

Do you understand now?

Re: Scen Editor vs OOB?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 846187)

Do you understand now?

Heh...getting there... I understand what you're saying about Medium tanks, etc, but don't understand how that is different from units that have their name bolded and underlined when displayed in the unit page?