retro-multi-model construction???
 

I've heard a lot about this one, and seen it in work, but i'd like to know how does this one work exactly. It seems to me that by those retrofittings i would soon deplete my resource base and an unfortunate event/attack can cripple me completely.

OK, how does that work?

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

Retroseries?

In short, it is a way to speed up production at the cost of spending more money.

For your basic ships of the line, you should not need it; rather, have enough planetary and orbital yards to use up all your resources as fast as you get them dug up.

Retroseries are good for super-emergency-build effects, and special items.
A good example is a Battlemoon, or Sphereworld component bases...

First build a stripped down Version that takes a minimum of time to complete on your spaceyards.
If your basic design takes exactly 2 or 3 turns to complete, you will get your finished product into service the fastest.
If your basic design takes only 1 turn to build, you can get more ships out per turn on average, but you will have a longer delay before the first one is spaceworthy.

Once you have a stripped down design that can be built quickly, COPY that design, and add components until the TOTAL cost in all three resources COMBINED is close to 150% of the original's cost.
Note that the costs are combined!
1000 minerals +400 organics +100 rads is 150% the cost of a 0 minerals, 0 organics, 1000 rads cost design, and CAN be retrofitted to!

As your Spaceyards rapidly build the stripped down designs, retrofit each one as it completes to the 150% cost design.
The yards will repair these ships while they build the next stripped down Version.

A retroseries involves chaining many designs together;
- Basic
- Retro 1 (50% more)
- Retro 2 (50% more than R1) 2.25x more than basic
- Retro 3 (50% more than R2) 3.375x more than basic
- ...
- Retro 9 (50% more than R8) 38.4x more than basic
- Final (50% more than R9) 57x more than Basic!

So, in a simultaneous game, if the Basic Design cost you 2 turns of building to make, +10 turns to retrofit to each retroseries design in turn, you get:
A super-huge ship that would have taken 114 TURNS in only 12 turns plus repair time!
Not to mention you get your second ship off the line on turn 14 instead of turn 228 (!)

This is an extreme example, but it does apply to Battlemoons and Sphereworld components.
To a lesser extent, it can also apply to warships.

The key is that, when money is not an issue, you CAN speed up your production by throwing money at the problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
For a Battleship that takes 5 turns to complete at an orbital yard, we can design a basic hull that costs only 1/5th that amount and builds in 1 turn.
It will take a 4 step retroseries to get the basic hull to the final design (since (1.5)^4 = 5.0625)

By turn #5, the regular yard strategy will leave you with one finished battleship.
By turn #5, the retroseries yard has:
- 1 Final-design battleship, with many damaged components
- 1 R3 design battleship
- 1 R2 design battleship
- 1 R1 design battleship
- 1 Basic design battleship

Not worth it yet, but just wait!

By turn #10, the regular yard has completed 2 full battleships.
The retroseries yard now has:
- 6 Final Design battleships
- 1 R3 design battleship
- 1 R2 design battleship
- 1 R1 design battleship
- 1 Basic design battleship

Assuming you have the repair capacity to keep up with the volume of ships (a single repair base should be more than sufficient)
With the retro-strategy yard, you now have 3x as many finished battleships, and are pumping them out 5x faster than normal!

So, if you have the money, but not the build rate, retroseries may be for you!

[ January 27, 2003, 02:05: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

Keep in mind that, as of a recent patch, you can't retrofit a SY component into a ship which doesn't already have one. Found that one out the hard way on my massive WP defense/BSY starbase. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

Same goes for colony modules, IIRC.

Speaking of which, does that mean that I can't retrofit a gas colonizer into a rock colonizer (for example)?

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

you can retrofit from 1 type to another just not from one with no colony to one with a colony module.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

There are more modest ways to use a retroseries.

Colony Ship two step:
Build it with the bare requirements plus whatever will fit without costing an extra build turn. Then retroseries more engines and storage. Meanwhile your cranking out another ship.
Very handy if your HW can build 3650 minerals in the begining of the game.

Full Utilization:
A cheap two step series. Simply remove a componant or two so it uses nearly all of a turns capacity, then retrofit. ex. turn rate of 2000 minerals = 5 turns for 9850 minerals vs 6 turns for 1050.

Not Yet Researched:
So you have Combat sensors II, but you will get Combat Sensors III soon. Build it without them and then refit. Great when combined with Full Utilization.

Generic Plus:
A generic configuration (usually a large ship) with a portion empty (about 100K). The empty portion is later filled to counter specific threats or to attack opponents weakness. While still generic the maintenance costs are lower.

Training Plus:
A generic plus that may not even have weapons. Usually in route to or sitting over training, refit, and resupply waypoints. The maintenance savings will usually pay for the refit costs.

Remeber,
You can refit mothballed ships, but they must be re-activated for training.

[ January 28, 2003, 00:26: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

What is the cost of the retrofit? Say I have a 1000 kt ship and I want to retrofit to a 2000 kt ship. I ask because I'm currently receiving word that I cannot finance the refit, despite having more than twice the cost of the target ship set aside (e.g., > 4000 kt set aside in the above example).
Thanks,
Merry

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I recommend asking a question in only 1 thread, so that we can just answer it in 1 thread.

From the other thread where you asked:

The relevent numbers are as follows:

Cost to add a component: 120%
Cost to remove a component: 30%
Maximum amount of change in ship cost: 150%, being total cost. i.e. new ship (M+O+R) can't be more than old ship (M+O+R) x 1.5. It is not on an individual resource basis.

These values can be found and modified in settings.txt:

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps := 120
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal := 30
Retrofit Max Percent Difference in cost := 50

Slick.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're saying 1000kt to 2000kt; are you trying to retrofit between hull sizes? That can't be done. You can't retrofit hulls - only components in the hulls.....

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

That's one of the problems involved in measuring everything in KT http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Take a look at the projected retrofit cost; just before you click to select the design you are retrofitting to, look to the right, and you will see the price in each resource.

Note that you need to have the resources in storage.
Even if you are generating a 200,000 resource surplus, if you've only got 50,000 storage, you can't do a retrofit that costs 60,000 in any one resource.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

I find it strange that this isn't considered a bug/exploit/cheat. Being able to build a Warp Opener in two turns seems, well, unbalancing...

In simultaneous turns it takes longer (~8 turns), but still, I think the (probably intended) long construction time of those vehicles is part of the balancing.

-Spoon

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

I tried this too, and found to my dismay that the cost of the warp openning component was so large that it exceeded the maximum retrofit limit of 50% for any conceivable ship I could build.

see: Retrofit Max Percent Difference in cost := 50

And so, for very very expensive components, you will find it exeedingly expensive to retroseries them into a ship.
If you really want the component in the fewest turns possible however this is what you must do:

i) build a ship that is really really expensive through several retroseries
ii) once the cost of your ship is equal to double of the cost of the component you want, go ahead and replace most of these expensive components with the desired component.

You will still find this takes a fair bit of micromanagement, and will significantly increase the time it takes to play a round of the game (for most of us this is a good thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ). Is it imbalanced, well no, becuase it'll still take you a longer time than two to three turns, and it will cost your empire a huge amount of resources to do.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is most certainly not a bug, as MM has already addressed retrofits by adding the cost difference limit in the first patch or so (or was that in the initial release, added in a later beta patch? I forget). It is not a cheat, as it is well within the game parameters to do it. Most do not consider it an exploit because of the huge costs involved in doing it. It costs a lot more to build a ship with retrofits than it does to build it normally.

The high maintenance and high build cost prevent you from getting very many stellar manipulation ships in service, regardless of how you build them. Using extensive retrofits does shave off many turns of build time, but it does magnify the overall cost to build by several factors (depending on how many retrofits you use).

[ February 28, 2003, 00:38: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You only need one warp-opener to cause considerable harm. The cost of retrofitting a single ship isn't that great. By retrofiting, you lose the long-build time balancing factor.

Again, look how retrofitting works in non-simultaneous turns. You can build a bare bones ship in one turn, and then, in the next turn, retrofit it all the way up to a star destroyer. This isn't buggy behavior???

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

It is difficult to get such a retrofit series enabled. Even if you do, it costs a huge amount of extra resources to do so.

No, it is not at all buggy in any way. Gamey, sure. But for it to be a bug, it would have to function contrary to how it is intended to function. MM already addressed retroseries in a long ago patch, so this can not be considered buggy. Turn-based games are almost always just against AIs, so doing that only possibly hurts yourself, not any other players. It is not nearly as dramatic in MP games.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. I don't think it was intended to be able to build a Star Destroyer in two turns. And if it was intended, then I call that a design flaw, which is just as bad as a bug.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

Hmmm, usually my end product ship (you're calling yours a stardestroyer) is many many times more expensive than my input ship (you're calling this the barebones ship).

Because my end product ship usually exceeds the input ship by 5 to 10 fold in cost, it would not be possible for me to upgrade from the "barebones" ship to the "stardestroyer" in only 1 to 2 turns (because of the 50% rule). I'd suggest that you should actually exploit this "feature" more, rather than less by increasing the cost differential between your input ships and output ships! Of course the cost to your empire will be that you will definitely need to increase 1) your resource production 2) the amount of resource storage and 3) the number of repair components on either ships or bases to allow the retroseries to work well.

If you really feel that retroseries is imbalanced, then you could cease using it or mod. the required files to make it even more expensive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . I personally find that I need to build up a substantial infrastructure in order to retroseries well, and that this balances everything out (ie. now I've got to spend time building repair ships, more storage facilities, etc.)

just my thoughts,
jimbob

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It costs about 200k minerals to build a warp-opener (not a star-destroyer, I know...) in two turns using retro-series. Certainly not out of reach for most games I've played.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doesn't help in games already started... and if my opponent might be using it...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are probably going to want to do these things regardless, and my main concern is with building a few Stellar Manip ships of various flavors. For that purpose, worst case is you would have to build an extra repair base and storage facility...

-Spoon

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

From spoon:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, spoon, I'll bite. How can you do that in two turns!? Details please.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. I don't think it was intended to be able to build a Star Destroyer in two turns. And if it was intended, then I call that a design flaw, which is just as bad as a bug.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Be as dissatisfied as you want. I am stating the facts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, spoon, I'll bite. How can you do that in two turns!? Details please.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Read the whole thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 01, 2003, 01:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

from Imperator Fyron
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, spoon, I'll bite. How can you do that in two turns!? Details please.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Read the whole thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [/QB][/quote]

Read the thread initially and have now re-read it. I'm no smarter. I still see no way to build a warp opener in only 2 turns, simul or turn-based.

_______

Okay, I figured a way to do it in turn based, and it is glossed over in this thread. Apologies to everyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ March 01, 2003, 03:21: Message edited by: Grandpa Kim ]

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">heh, not sure I'm dissatisfied. After all, it's these counter-intuitive, poorly documented, is-it-a-bug-or-is-it-a-feature type of minutia that keep me one step ahead of the riff-raff.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

GK: The answer is also partly in the title of the thread.

You build a cheap design that can be completed in 1 turn.

You then retrofit it to a design 50% more expensive.
You retrofit THAT to a design 50% more expensive than the Last.
Repeat as nessesary.
By the time you've doen it 10 times, you can be left with a ship 50x more expensive that the original hull.
Turn 2, you repair the components, and you now have 1 super-expensive ship completed way ahead of schedule and many times OVERbudget. Since you pay for both putting components in and taking them out, you've spent way more money than just building the thing straight up would have.

If you wanted to build a sphereworld in two turns using this method, it would cost somthing like 6 million resources instead of 300,000.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Glad you figured it out...
Two turns for any ship in Turn-Based, since there is not a limit on the number of times you can retrofit the same ship. More or less rendering the 150% limit meaningless.
In simultaneous games, about ten turns (just guessing) for a Star Destroyer. Eight for a Warp-point opener.
Cost is roughly double. I think.

I can imagine the conversations at Fleet Central:
High Wormlord: We need a Warp Point opener and we need it NOW!
Navy Command: Yessir! We are building an empty hull right now.
HW: Isn't it quicker to put the components in first?
NC: Oh no, we do that later. See, they are putting in the Ion Storm Generator now.
HW: But I want a warp-point opener!
NC: Right, but it is much faster to first install this Storm Generator, and then remove it after we pay the bill.
HW: What?!? Hey, why are you installing eight cloaking devices?
NC: Don't worry, we'll take them out as soon as they are paid for.
HW: I need a drink

-spoon

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If it was that bad, I wouldn't have a complaint. However, while testing it out, a warp-opener (~100k) cost less than 200k to retro-build. And I wasn't even trying to be efficient...

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

It is only about 2x as expensive when doing a single step. When doing many steps, the costs get much higher.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was with six steps...

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, turnbased you can do it multiple times in a single turn! I had no idea! Yeah, seems a little unbalanced to me now...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have no problems with this however. Retrofitting once per turn seems reasonable to me.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was with six steps...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spoon, I don't think you are going to get much argument doing a retroseries in a turn based game is quite gamey. But the point everyone is trying to make is that that's against the AI. The argument could be made that anything you do against this AI is an unfair advantage, unless you let your cat play your turn for you. (Inside joke for forum oldtimers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

But in a simultaneous turn game against other players, the retroseries becomes more expensive because you have to include in the cost of maintenance on your ship for all those turns while you do your thing.

Geoschmo

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

lol @ spoon's conversation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
retroseries dont seem that much unbalancing to me though - especially in simul.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't have a complaint against it with normal run of the mill attack ships. Only with stellar manip ships, where a single ship can influence the outcome of the game. Being able to build a warp-opener ten turns early is a huge advantage.

The extra maintenance on a single ship's first 5 retro-series designs is negligible. Warping directly to your opponents homeworld ten turns earlier is priceless.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

i tend to agree there - perharps MM should ban stellar manip. retrofitting?

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This can be modded. You can give the stellar manip components the space yard ability, but with no value so they can't actually build anything. This way the game will restrict you from retrofitting to a design that has one.

I suppose it could be a problem doing this. It would allow someone with a stellar manip comp to trigger a retrofit. Although I dount anyone would build ships with stellar manip comps for this purpose. Seems kind of silly when a real space yard is way cheaper.

The only other problem is the AI would probably get confused and try to build stuff in the build queues for these ships. Which would would make the ships not move since a ship can't move if it's got something in it's build queue.

Geoschmo

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wouldn't really say it's too buggy. It also makes it possible to approximate SEIII's build method in a mod. Make shipyards able to build the bare minimum ship in one turn, and play around with costs to make maintenance what you want it to be. Then, make the maximum allowable retrofit difference very high, and simply pay for your components up front. Then you use the repair capacity to build your ships. The only dramatic difference is that your repair amounts pool themselves in SE4, instead of working on individual ships.

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This can be modded. You can give the stellar manip components the space yard ability, but with no value so they can't actually build anything. This way the game will restrict you from retrofitting to a design that has one.

I suppose it could be a problem doing this. It would allow someone with a stellar manip comp to trigger a retrofit. Although I dount anyone would build ships with stellar manip comps for this purpose. Seems kind of silly when a real space yard is way cheaper.

The only other problem is the AI would probably get confused and try to build stuff in the build queues for these ships. Which would would make the ships not move since a ship can't move if it's got something in it's build queue.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok. Use a Dreadnought or Baseship hull and put in a SY component. Doesn't stop much now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I'm with you on this Spoon. I find the whole retro-series things the most bizarre concept in this game. Whether its unbalanced or not I don't care but its just silly. There are hundreds of quite amusing real world analogies on what's the game seems to be modelling here.

Askan

Re: retro-multi-model construction???
 

I have to say, whether "gamey" or not Retro series can have a significant impact. Most people here have been talking about using it for Stellar Manip ships, but I think it is more (or at least as) useful for colony ships.

With Hardy Industry and 120% Construction and Adv. Storage I can have "good" homeworlds that produce 1 colony ship per turn. An empty colony hull with 1 cargo bay costs 3850, and a "good" homeworld with Adv. Storage can have 3900 rate to start.

Build 1 Base with 3 repair components at the very start and you are on your way with 1 colony ship per turn/ per homeworld.

Even with "average" homeworlds you can do it if you are willing to go Engineer put construction at 125%, go with Hardy Industrial, etc.

Then of course when you produce new shipyards in new sectors you can do the same thing using "emergency" build and produce 1 colony ship per turn at those planets as well. This can lead to an almost exponential expansion given a little room to spread out.

Of course these type of techniques are the most useful on larger galaxy sizes where the ability to expand quickly can equate to a significant advantage before you ever meet another player.