Horsies and motorcycles
 

Hi.
I really really really like how the bicycles work in the game. When you get off they cant move around on their own. Can we have the same for Motorcycles and Horses? I mean like when the cavalry is dismounted the guy holding the horses seems to be able to ride them all around the place? Same with Motorcycles how does just a few guys ride all the motorcyclea around? But theres more. they can even fire at the same time as riding multiple horses and motorcycles. I also noticed something that seems to be missing in the armies. Most cavalry had a 6 horse limber for field guns that was just as fast as cavalry getting around. So not a wagon or pack horses like now that cant keep up.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

besides game limitations, there's also some doctrine issues here i believe. Granted, not so much for cavalry vs. bicyclists/motorcycle groups.

I love the early war scenarios with lots of German motorcyclists. They are versatile and used in the right way, they can be critical. Even if the code allowed for dismounting motor teams......its not really accurate is it? Their job was recon, communications etc. not the same as motorized troops. The AI unfortunately treats them as the latter. But a human will treat them tactically.

As for Calvary. The devs can comment but i believe its a code limitation. If you dismount, odds are the horses will be driven away or killed in a firefight of intensity. Also from a game code perspective, the cavalry unit is a single entity. They can't dismount as such, whereas an INF unit can be loaded onto a transport or half track and then dismounted. separate units and each can share a different fate.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Horses can run away on their on. The British discovered in the 2nd Boer war if they dropped an artillery round or fired a couple of Maxim guns at the horses, they would run away.

troopie

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Generally 1 man in will hold the horses.
With horses it's very easy to tie the bridle of one to the saddle of another then have one rider lead a conga line of horses pretty much anywhere they want (barring the horses spooking).

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

You misunderstand how the unit is set up

The German motorcycles units are single Icons that represent 3x beiwagenkrad (sidecar bike)

The collective total of passengers carried by those three beiwagenkrad ( Kradschutzen) is 6 men = 2 per bike

When you dismount that unit it contains 6 Kradschutzen so those 6 men represent the one in the sidecar and the one behind the driver X 3

The crew/drivers of the beiwagenkrad do not dismount which means the three beiwagenkrad that make up that single unit have three drivers that are free to move their beiwagenkrad while their passengers engage in combat

This is why when you click on a beiwagenkrad that has been dismounted by the Kradschutzen passengers it shows 3 crew...... those are the drivers of the three bikes and not the passengers

The horses have been well explained by others

Therefore nothing will change

Glad you like the Bike set up , it is much better than the original kludge

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Oh thanks for all that information I stand corrected. The motorcycles is a very clever solution all credit to whoever thought that up. I guess if a designer wanted to then, for motorcycles they could make the motorcycles the same as the bicycles that is immobile but they could then have a stationary abandoned three motorcycles and a 9 man squad instead of 6. Im not suggesting to change what is there but to add an alternative formation to choose from maybe.

So I am still learning learning learning, I see now it is the same for the cavalry the dismounted cavalry is 6 men leaving 4 men to ride the horses about and shoot guns etc. so I am sorry to have made my smart mouth comments about moving and firing excetera.

Anyway I understand now so very good and doesnt need changing but maybe there could be an additional version of the MC and Cavalry to choose from where the MCs and Horses do become immobile like the bicycles and then there is a 9 man MC squad or a 10 man cavalry squad to fight with instead of 6? I think this is what dragoons always were? mounted infantry where the horses were really transport not something to be fought from on top off like in the cavalry.

Also would it be possible to add a 6 horse limber to carry the cavalry field guns? I think these were pretty common and they had the 6 horses so the guns could keep up with the cavalry so speed would be 12 hexes instead of the wagon or pack horses 6.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

looking at the UK OOB, the current limber costs you 10 points and the Morris 15cwt truck is also 10 points - who would actually buy a limber when there is a truck for the same cost?

Therefore unless a scenario designer picks it for his purposes (and he can edit the speed if he wants in the designer) - nobody sane will be buying them. Same gos for the suggested extra cavalry types, frankly.

I have really never used cavalry bar a few sacrificial scouts on the attack specifically to draw AI machinegun fires, and the only motorcycles I ever really use are non-dismount scouts to nick an objective (or die trying!). The dismounting motorcycles simply charge off into the blue and get themselves massacred when the enemy spots them a mile off, and the tiny little crews have no staying power.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

I find cavalry (well, small scout units with mounts) VERY useful in rough terrain you really don't want to send vehicles into; forests,swamps, etc.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Hey Thanks guys, thats right the game does a great job of how horsies can navagate rough and swamps and such stuff which can be cool helpful. I know this is just something I found interesting to be added but if no one else wants it of course dont do it I dont know what other might want so I just suggest.

Myself I like to buy some historical units like how they really were and see if I can command them good or not on the battlefield. I dont care if I loose it is still fun for me I dont know if anyone else plays like me. All the cavalries had the field guns towed by a 12 hex speed 6 horse limber that could keep up with the horsies if I use a truck instead it has more trouble keeping up in the rough going, mud and swamp than the fast limber maybe?

I think the bicycle type immobile horsie and motorcycle transport can be very useful to do stuff like maybe go fast through a forest arrive on the other side out of the blue and unexpected and then deliver a much more stronger, because of the bigger dismounted sections, force to cause trouble with. So 9 men instead of 6 for the MCs and 10 instead of 8 for the horsies makes them more dangerous when they dismount at the end of their journey through the forest that the enemy thought would take too long to get through, so Surprise! Works good for the bastogne maps. And of course the bigger dismounted sqauds have more staying power which is what some players want.

I guess im wrong again but for the horsies I think the numbers dont add up, can someone check me? The Germans 623 riding cavalry called cavalry has 10 men in each squad but the 714 and 715 dismounted cavalry called dismounted cavalry has 8 men in the squad and 4 men in the cavalry mounts so thats a 12 man squad and the 452 cavalry mount that carries the 446 3 MG sections make for a 13 man squad. So shouldnt they all be the same size squads? I looked and lots of other armies cavalries have the same trickyness.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

I forgot to say the other funny thing is that for the German unbritten cavalry with 4 in charge of the transport horses and 8 men dismounted Is that the 4 men must be in charge of 3 horses each. I find that they are really good at fighting even with the 2 extra horses they can still gallop at full speed, lay smoke and stuff just as good as when there is one man per horse. Having a choose of a stationary when dismounted cavalry group is more like they are just standing around holding the horses instead of fighting and if you tied them up to a tree or hobbled them then all 12 men can fight in the one dismounted squad. Hope this makes sense.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

I'll take a look at this.

There are issues I can see but when doing things that were more or less "adaptations" sometimes " reality" and "game reality" cannot be equal.

That said, in the game the mounts units are all set up the same for speed , carrycapacity and men but the set up for the riders is all over the place for the dozen nations that use dismounted cav so both have to be looked at and any solution will never make everyone happy

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

That would require multiple new Units (you'd need two units of both dismounts and mounts, one for each type) and Formations (you'd need two formations, one for each type) AND would be a significant "issue" with regard to Unit Classes (currently there is NO WAY to designate one dismount and mount combination to be used in one formation and a totally separate combination to be used in the other).

It CAN be done.
But it's such a niche instance it's not worthwhile to try to implement it game wide.
This sort of thing is EXACTLY why the editors are included with the game. Make these custom units/formations, use to your hearts content!

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Exactly.

The game cannot be everything to everybody

Four "crew" was thought to be a reasonable kludge to the problem of what to do with the horses when the troops that rode them are off playing silly bugger. Four men was thought to be able to control 10 horses but we gave the mount units weapons so that mounted the combined unit could fight on horseback and dismounted but when dismounted that leads to the possibility of the four handler "crew" being able to fight mounted even when the dismounts are off doing the same thing someplace else

The game can only simulate reality generally and some situations require " creativity ". In reality if you have 2 units with 10 men per unit and you have 1 truck that can carry 16 total and a jeep like vehicle that can carry 4 you could get everyone on transport but not in the game because you cannot split units ( and never will ) You have to have a vehicle that can carry 20 or two units that can carry 10 ( which presents it's own unique warp of reality as you have 10 horses with 10 riders and 4 "crew".....14 men/ 10 horses)

Every mobile unit needs at least 1 crew so if we give the mounts 1 crew someone will point out that now one man is Roman riding 10 hourses while firing rifles and throwing hand grenades...( a very amusing mental image.......). so all the mounts in all oobs are the same. 4 crew, speed 12 and the capacity to carry UP TO 10 riders

That compromise allowed every nation that used dismounted cav to work even though the number of riders ranged from 6 to 10 and it allowed players to use units that could be ridden into battle then the fighting troops dismounted. We could have just as easily NOT put dismounted cav in the game because of those inconsistancies...... ( they did not exist in the original.....only mounted cav)......but we did anyway

SOMETIMES game reality needs to be bent a bit to accomodate special cases especially cases few players use......... like ONE TIME in 26 years someone has made an issue of this particular inconsistency

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

I found another funnyness about the cavalry and cavalry mounts. Cavalry mounts can go into impassible but cavalry can't I am guessing they should both be the same. I like that they can go in the impassable slope because horses can go nearly anyhere that soldiers can.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Can you guess why in the over quarter century we have been doing this that you are the only one to have ever mentioned this ??

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

My guess is that no one else likes to play cavalry

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

But i like to

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

This is what we figured out

There are 7 cav type classes in the game and not all are set up exactly the same. We MIGHT ( maybe) go wading through the code to find all the little differences but I would not hold your breath as it is a niche issue inside a niche issue that very, VERY few players bother with and if they do they accept or simply overlook the slight differences.

Like life, nothing is exactly as it seems or "should" be......so it is with this game

Both Andy and I have been doing this for over a quarter century. Our "enthusiasm" for dealing with niche issues is not what it once was. Do your own tests and you will find what some "cav" Unitclass can and cannot do then use the ones that do what you want them to do

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Oh thats ok im not expecting you to fix that impassable slope thing. I just noticed it and I know it is a very complicated game and I thought that little extra piece of information might make a difference to something else you might be looking at. I realize on its own it is neither here or there.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

There are dozens of places in code where 2 or 3 of the cav type units deviate from how the other 3 or 4 other cav type units and to get them all so they work the same way ----where we would want them to work the same way----- will take time when we get it to spare but it's very much a backburner issue and not a priority as it is a niche issue for very few players

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

Thats great yes I know very niche. But like Suhiir says they are very handy in the rough or woods or for a quick crossing of a stream, especially if I play on a big map where there is space to move around. No hurry Ill try to do something in mobhack.

Re: Horsies and motorcycles
 

And I still think this is a very great game thanks very much for all the hard work you put in