Flak issue
 

Flak units seem not to use their armor piercing rounds against air units.

What are the rounds there for ?

They stop shooting air targets after depleting their he rounds.

Re: Flak issue
 

if they have AP rounds, those are used against AFV, obviously.

Re: Flak issue
 

I was in the mind they are for heavily armored planes such as shturmovik and such.

Have a hard time to penetrate their armor with he rounds.

I am looking with confusion when such a plane flies over a flak vehicle with zero he rounds, only armor piercing rounds left and the crew decides not to shoot the plane.

Re: Flak issue
 

AP given to FlaK units is only used when engaging an armoured ground target.

Yes, Shturmovik are difficult to shoot down because in RL they were difficult to shoot down

Re: Flak issue
 

Wouldnt it be nice to have an option to shoot them with ap rounds. Would certainly help in that. I cannot see any better target for them myself and in most of the time i prefer positioning the anti air assets in the rear where there are no ground targets to be had.

I have been wondering many times in the years of playing steel panthers that it would be nice to turn on and off the ammo types in the same way as weapons.

This would give an option for players to choose the ammo type they want to use without further restricting the game in any way.


In case of shturmovik i suppose the armor value is the game represantative to that, not the inability of the flak units to use armor piercing rounds against them.

The scenario i mentioned above does not make any sense to me.

Re: Flak issue
 

Shooting at planes with AP ammo is practically useless because the chance of a direct hit is near zero. Direct hits are only possible with machine-guns because of their high rate of fire.

Re: Flak issue
 

Yesterday i saw a sniper to destroy a gun from m10 3in with a single shot of a sniper rifle.

Re: Flak issue
 

Guns are stationary and much easier to aim at than aircraft. What is m10 3in?

Re: Flak issue
 

It is an american Tank Destroyer.

Re: Flak issue
 

Oh, but how was it possible? Did the sniper hit a super weak spot, such as the visor?

Re: Flak issue
 

Dont know.

Re: Flak issue
 

Hits with extra penetration, including those at weak spots, are indicated with asteriskses in the comment at the bottom of the screen.

Re: Flak issue
 

There was none, dunno really. Could always be something else though.

Re: Flak issue
 

Since there is no save game and no info beyond it happened we will never know if the vehicle had been previously damaged and the crew reduced to one man and since the M10 is open topped one shot on the last remaining crew will kill the vehicle. It's one of SP's quirks that we all live with and accept as a c'est la guerre issue

Re: Flak issue
 

The sniper shots came from an elevated position.

Re: Flak issue
 

Then they can go in through the open top as there's no armour there.

Re: Flak issue
 

There's still the problem of supposedly killing all 5 crewmen with a 'single shot'. Specifically I find sniper fire is way overpowered in the game. Generally all firearms are given unrealistic actual effective range and accuracy.

Re: Flak issue
 

If all firearms are overpowered, then they are still in balance relatively each other...

What I find strange, however, is the ease of neutralising a field gun with an MG or a rifle squad. Is the gun's shield completely ineffectual?

Re: Flak issue
 

It's cool that there is an accuracy slider which can be used to reduce hits. Problem is that a rifle squad can effectively suppress targets at 500m (waste of ammo though). The default threshold between suppression and a hit is too slim causing unrealistic extreme range mass casualties for WW2 forces who were most often poorly supplied. Isn't a major game play problem but, lower ranges and hit percentages would better model WW2 standoff and closed engagements.
Gun shields and 1cm and less armor plate is mostly for protecting morale. An 8mm machine gun burst on an American pack howitzer's gun shield will rumple and penetrate for instance. Just like how vehicles are being penetrated by ammo they're supposedly rated against in recent wars. Velocity trumps stasis every time. The gun shield or any large equipment should have some defensive bonus though.
My problem with pack guns and mortars is if they're travelling on foot than how are the teams managing to haul dozens of shells or bombs?

Re: Flak issue
 

And how exactly did you arrive at the conclusion that all 5 crewmen were killed with a single shot based on NO save game example ?? The vehicle *may* already taken damage...we don't know

Re: Flak issue
 

Probably true, but then battles would last much longer. Who wants to spend hours of real time playing out "realistic" platoon or company engagements lasting maybe 100 turns or more? And never mind battalion level or higher.

As has been noted before this is a wargame not a simulation. There is enough internal consistency in the combat results to provide a good measure of comparison among weapons systems while allowing replication of real-world tactics to achieve decisive results in the time allotted.

Cheers and happy gaming.

Re: Flak issue
 

Single sniper shot that went ricocheting in the turret. Bits of machinery spalled off and blinded the driver. Thus 5 casualties. Not 5 kills, but 5 casualties.

Re: Flak issue
 

There is a chest full of ammo and one guy carries from the front and one from behind ?

The strongest ones in the group. 2 chests = 4 soldiers carrying.

80mm Mortar seems to have around 160kg worth of ammo. Definetely not easy to manage.

120mm Mortar seems to have over half a ton kg worth of ammunition, would definetely need some wheeled cart or something.

15cm SiG (Germany ww2) that has speed 1 have probably close to 2 tons of ammuniton, do not really how they manage to move at all using only the strength of their crew.

Rest of the field guns tend to have movement speed of 0 to represent this.

Have not thought about this before.

Re: Flak issue
 

There is a misconception about the primitiveness of WW2 mechanization. Even loading out a 5cm granatwerfer section requires motorised supply. You have to ruck mortar bombs and 20kg pack is very fatiguing over an 8 hour march. Horse and wagon can work for local supply but realistically from railhead to the front 10s of thousands of trucks were necessary.
Not an opinion about the game. It is what it is. Basically most weapons teams should be static while ready, require ammunition reinforcement, and a setup period for communications and plotting firetables.

Re: Flak issue
 

I like to think about those as an abstract element compared to a single PBEM Meeting Engagement battle, that the supply lines are not shown on the map and both players have some presence on the map already.

So artillery pieces, Flak guns, AT guns and so have already been transported before the battle and their transportation are not necessarily shown in the field.

But when thinking about the ammo loadouts, artillery over 80mm should only move after deployment by using transports.

Re: Flak issue
 

I'm saying even a light mortar team loaded down with a reasonable amount will only have a few minutes of sustained fire capability. 1kg bomb * 20 rnds * 3 men / 20rpm = 3 mins fire effect. It's why they were particularly a stupid weapon that was phased out of most armies. Not to mention their cost inefficiency compared to artillery. Although I really like them for modern mechanized infantry usage. If a WinSP turn is supposed to be 2 minutes and I believe the 50/60mm mortars carry 80 "shots" which should represent rates of sustained fire / 4 shots per turn (excuse errors been a while since I played). That represents 20 minutes of effective fire or 400kg of ammunition between 3 or 4 men. Pretty goofy numbers.
It's also a major reality break problem with Moylan's Combat Mission series. Mortars and cannon on a foot advance have very limited capability.

Re: Flak issue
 

Firstly as far as I know light mortars made a comeback though grenade launchers seem to have taken over the role now.
In game there may be an error with some double Light Mortar Platoons (2 mortars 6 men 60 rounds a mortar)
Normally a 3 man team carries 30 - 45 rounds for its mortar not 80 so 4 fire missions at full ROF.

Re: Flak issue
 

How do you know? I should like to read about it in serious sources, including veteran memoirs. My understanding about WW2 snipers was that they fired at a lower rate than in the game but had a much higher percentage of hits at infantry. Shooting at a tank or bunker visor, as was the case in the 1939 Finnish campaign, is of course another kettle of cod. I have seen photos of Finnish bunkers with *lots* of bullet marks around the slits/visors.

Once a sniper takes soldier down, the rest of the squad immediately hit the dust and hide behind cover, making further kills problematic.

Re: Flak issue
 

Getting back to Flak guns. I think they are somewhat overpowered in the game due to two things:

1. AA guns seem to have no problem firing at aircraft and ground targets in the same turn. As an amateur (in flak things) one would suppose that they would have to concentrate on one thing at a time.

2. All AA guns always seem to have some AP ammo. I strongly doubt that all AA guns hade AP rounds available at all times. Perhaps those that had a doctrine for use against ground target, like German 88:s , but for others, I think there should be a fairly high probability that they happen to have no AP rounds.

Re: Flak issue
 

1) AA guns are autocannon, so they have 6 shots usually. I have expert German SPAA in my current core now that show 7 shots. Plenty to pop off at ground targets and aircraft as well. And if they are skilled, then they will be able to get a few bonus reaction shots even when they go to 0 remaining.

2) Giving AA guns a few AP shots is game policy, it was so in the SSI OOBs, and it remains so in ours. Its usually just 5 shots, enough to engage one vehicle so its not excessive, and it makes charging round the enemy rear area hunting down mortar teams just a little more "hairy" for your light armour. If you personally don't like that then by all means feel free to edit the OOBs in Mobhack for your own personal use, and re-run the points calculator afterwards.