spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Here's my big list of corrections and suggestions, primarily focusing on the communist partisans and later Yugoslav army (who will probably see the most use in campaigns anyway). The only thing that's still missing is the artillery (incl. AA), which I will post soon, when I've studied its organizational structure a bit more.

I've ignored "one-off" vehicles, training vehicles, as well as the stuff captured after Germany surrendered (note that the fighting in Yugoslavia went on for a week or two after the capitulation).

Almost all the listed equipment can already be found in the OOB of the nation that produced the item in question - I've noted the few exceptions.

Unless noted otherwise, all entries refer to the Partisans and later Yugoslav Army (not the Royal Army, četniks, ustaše etc.).

Sources:

* Bojan B. Dimitrijević: German Panzers and Allied Armour in Yugoslavia in World War Two (2013, in English). - for all armoured vehicles
* Tino Jelavić: No.352 (Y) R.A.F. Squadron (Nova Gradiška 2003 - in English) - for the Spitfires and Hurricanes
* Bojan B. Dimitrijević: Jugoslovensko ratno vazduhoplovstvo / Jugoslav Airforce 1942-1992 (Belgrade 2006, in Serbian only)
- for the Yak-3
* Reports from appendices in Ivo Omrčanin: Enigma Tito (Washington 1984, in Croatian). - for the PIAT and Boys ATR
* http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-...n/audrey-1943/ (in English) - mentions British delivered AT rifles


Aircraft

1. Correction: Units 268 and 269 (Hurricane and Spitfire) should remain available until 12/46. As per Yugoslavia's SPMBT OOB, these remained operational until the 50's.

2. New: Yak-3 Ubiytsa: This was actually the most common Yugoslav aircraft since 1945.
Date: 1/45 onwards

3. New: Spitfire Mk.IXe: Yugoslavia repeatedly badgered the British to give them more advanced planes. The British refused, but eventually did give them four damaged or inoperable MK.IXs. These were repaired by the Yugoslavs, and got to see some action in the last week of the war. Not sure if worth including.
Date: 5/45 onwards


Tanks

1. New: T-34/76 M1943. Originally captured vehicles deployed by the Germans were in turn captured by Partisans and used for the fighting around Trieste.
Date: 5/45 onwards

2. Correction: unit 280 (Somua S-35) - availability should be until 12/45.

3. Correction: unit 72 (T-70) - never used on Yugoslav soil, not even by the Soviet Red Army. Should be removed.

4. New: Italian CV-33/35 LF (flame tank) - several captured in 9/43. Lack of ammo meant they saw little or no action until 1945.

5. New: Italian CV-38 - several captured in 1944. Problem is that sources often don't distinguish between them and the other CV series tankettes. Earliest photo of one I have seen is from 10/44.
Date: 10/44-12/45

6. New: R-35 - captured tanks.
Date: 11/41-12/45

7. Correction: unit 279 (CV-35) should be size=1

8. Correction: units 73, 105, 110 (various Stuarts) should remain available to 12/46. The FlaK version (unit 111) is OK as-is, since they were retired from service soon after the war.

9. New: Italian M15/42 - captured tanks, may have been used in the last week of the fighting. Not sure if worth including.
Date: 5/45 onwards


Tank Destroyers, Assault Guns, SP Arty:

1. Correction: units 6 and 7 (SU-76M, SU-85) - not used by Yugoslavia until after the war. These vehicles were present in the country, but all were part of the Soviet Red Army. Should be removed or changed to 1/46-12/46 for "what if" scenarios.

2. New: Italian SMV L.40 47/32. Captured vehicles.
Date: 11/44 onwards

3. New: German JPz38(t) Hetzer. Captured vehicles.
Date: 3/45 onwards

4. Formation 144 (M8 HMC): organized into batteries of 4 vehicles.

5. Formation 145 (M7 HMC): organized into batteries of 3 vehicles.


Other Armoured Vehicles

1. Correction: unit 8 (Autoblinda) - availability should be 9/43 to 12/45.

2. Correction: unit 9 (SdKfz 222) - only captured after the war. Date should be 6/45 onwards, or the unit should be removed entirely.

3. New: American M3 Scoutcar (9/44+), Canadian Lynx (4/45+) - these were used only in very small numbers (6 scoutcars, 2 lynxes) as command vehicles. Not sure if worth including. Will need a new formation if you do.

4. New: Italian AS-37 Protetto. A few dozen captured after Italian surrender, plus a few more in 1945 (the German Ordnungspolizei in Yugoslavia used them). Will need a new Formation.
Date: 9/43 onwards

5. New: Italian Fiat Armoured Trucks. Same comments and dates as for AS-37.
-spob34, unit 364 can simply be renamed and used to represent this unit.

6. New: White AM. Used in small numbers (around 3) by Royal Army. Not sure if worth including. Will need a new formation.
-can be found in spob06, unit 407.
Date: 1/30-4/41

7. New: 250/1, 251/1 captured in small numbers since early 1945. Will need new formations if introduced.

8. Correction: unit 100 (AEC mk II): date should be 9/44-12/46.


Infantry AT weapons

1. New: Boys AT rifle: According to a British Office of Strategic services report, 72 were delivered in 11/43 and more later.
Date: 11/43-12/44

2. New: PIAT. According to a British foreign office report from 8th January 1945, 88 were delivered *by* 11/44.
Date: late 1944 onwards


Misc.

1. Suggestion: I think cavalry should be available from 1942, as it was historically used by the various local militias/guerillas and the reformed Yugoslav army.

2. Suggestion: Formation 25 (Heavy Trucks) uses the same vehicles as other Truck formations... Perhaps the ZiS truck from the Soviet OOB could be added to remedy this?

3. New: The Yugoslav army received Soviet 50mm mortars as aid.
Date: 1/45 onwards.

4. New: Schwarzlose HMGs - used by just about every guerrilla and militia group in Yugoslavia.
Date: 5/41-12/44
-can be found in spob 19, unit 90


Ustaše/Croatian tanks

1. Here's some additional tanks they employed, together with date they entered service (all would remain until 12/44, in accordance to the other Ustase tanks in the OOB):
* PzKw 39H 735(f) : 1/44
* TKS (Polish) : 5/42
* PzKw Ib : 9/41
* L6/40 : 1/44
* CV-33 : 8/41 (note that these are not the same as the “Ansaldo” present in the OOB)
* CV-38 : 1/44

2. unit 286 (Reno FT-17): there's no evidence they were ever used in their original ground combat role – they were mounted on armoured trains. Probably should be removed, or at least limited to 7/41-12/41.

3. unit 282 (PzKw IVh): were acquired in late 1944, not 1943.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

"250/1, 251/1" should be "SdKfz 250/1, 251/1". Sorry about that.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

My 3 cents, mostly concerning pictures:

001 FT-17 - armament was probably standard WW1 8mm Hotchkiss, not FM31

005 M.28 - it had a different suspension, than FT-17 - like this: http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/f...enault_m24.htm, so it could have a new picture

018 45L66 AT-Gun - picture of a long barrel version is 29366

021 65mm Mtn Gun - I don't know which gun it is, but a photo is used for Russian 76 mm FG - more appropriate for a mountain gun is eg. 23043

030 2x120mm Mortars - picture 56 is generic 82mm mortar. For 120mm, 13183 is used.

054 75mm Inf Gun - I don't know Yugoslavian artillery, but Chamberlain's Light and Medium Field Artillery credits Yugoslavia with several models of 76 mm Skoda guns, known there as 80 mm guns, so maybe it should be this caliber.
The picture is very similar to M.5/8 gun, which had a rage of 7 km, so a range of 152 of weapon #34 would roughly fit.
The weapon 34 is marked as 75mm M1928, but M.28 was a Yugoslavian modern 76mm Skoda field gun, with a range of 13.1 km (unless there were other M.28 guns). So maybe it should be M.5/8 gun?


056 122mm Howitzer (M.10/30) - picture is 122 mm cannon - correct is 23182 (used in Soviet OOB).
But maybe this unit should be rather Soviet newer standard M-30 howitzer? (Soviet unit 370, but with a split tail icon, eg.59, like in German oob)

Same for #67 122mm Platoon

057 37mm AA-Gun - picture should be Soviet 37 mm, eg. 23077

064 85mm AT-Gun - I don't think, that newest Russian gun (commissioned in 1946) was used in Yugoslavia. It isn't even available in Russian OOB. Besides, picture is 122mm howitzer.

069 GAZ-AA-37 - correct picture is 29355 or 27520

071 20mm AA Gun - is it Italian Breda? If so, a picture should be eg. 30150 - now it's German flak.

073 M3A1 Stuart - picture is M3A3

077 RPG Team - picture is Bazooka. For RPG-6, 351 is used.

078 AOP Light Truck - eg. 30257 is more appropriate for pre-war light truck

123,124,289,290 Partisan AT - picture is a Barricade with some firearm, and could be replaced eg. with 14033 - standard for other Partisan AT here.

133,134 76mm Field Gun - Skoda FG, picture is used for Russian Putilov. Correct picture for M.5/8 Skoda gun (or very similar) is 20070.
According to Chamberlain, it was known in Yugoslavia as 80 mm gun.

143 47mm AT-Gun - photo is German 37 mm. If it is Czechoslovak gun, that it can be 22211

165 75mm Pack Hwtzr - since it is used from 3/44, isn't it US M1 howitzer? Then, correct pic is 32150, icon = 2111 (single-tail), range should be 164 like in US oob (178)

272 Do 17K - picture is Do 217, better is 25578

Michal

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Just a few comments to Pibwl's suggestions.

I've just checked - they did indeed have 8mm MGs.

The gun in question was apparently originally a "French Puteaux" Whether it was modified by the Yugoslavs I'm unsure.

I think you're right, some partisan reports do mention "M.5/8 guns" later in the war.

This is correct. Yugoslavs called it "M1938 howitzer", but it's the same thing.

Correct.

Yes, they had Italian Bredas.

Not sure about the "80mm" bit, I'll try to check tomorrow at the library.

Yes, it is the Czechoslovak gun.

This is correct.

Well researched, sir!

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Maybe there could be added river monitors?...

There is already one ex-Yugoslavian in a Hungarian oob: #137 Drava (available 1/30-4/41). If a speed on water is calculated the same way, she could be faster: 13 knots (24 km/h) = 8 (now 5). Radio should be 90.

There could be also created several others, using Drava as a pattern, retaining AA gun and MG, only changing main artillery, all available 1/30-4/41:
- Vardar: had two 120/L45 and two 120 L/10 guns, 25 km/h
- Sava: had two 120/L35 (not 45) and one 120 L/10 guns, 24 km/h
- Morava: had two 120/L35, AAMG, 18 km/h.

Icon 706 represents Drava, but it could also serve for others. Maybe Morava can use 708/709, for she was slightly narrower and had single turrets fore and aft (although she had oval stern). If anybody wanted to bother with creating icons, I can upload plans of all.

Croatian navy afterwards used Sava until 9/44 (sunk) and Bosna (former Morava) until 6/44. I don't know when they were commissioned - first they had to be raised and repaired (1942?)

Michal

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Well I thought about the monitors, as well as small Adriatic patrol boats, but I think we're already going to give Don and Andy an awful lot to do...

Anyway, back to the artillery:

The 76.5mm guns were indeed labeled "80mm".

I've checked about the Royal Army. It used the following guns:

Divisional level

65mm French M.1906 mountain gun - unit 21 in the OOB
75mm French M.1897 field gun
75mm French M.1912 field gun
75mm Serb M.1907 field gun
75mm Austro-Hungarian Škoda M.15 mountain gun
75mm Czech Škoda M.28 mountain gun - unit 54 in the OOB
80mm Austro-Hungarian M.5/8 field gun
80mm Czech Škoda M.28 mountain gun - unit 133 in the OOB
100mm Austro-Hungarian M.14/M.16 howitzer (two very similar models) - unit 147 in the OOB
100mm Czech Škoda M.28 howitzer - unit 135 in the OOB
105mm French M.16 howitzer

Army level - there were no corps

105mm French Schneider M.13 long gun - unit 148 in the OOB
105mm M.15/26 (modified 104mm French M.15, range increased to 15.6km)
120mm French Schneider M.10/15 howitzer
150mm Austro-Hungarian Škoda M.14 howitzer
150mm Czech Škoda M.28 long gun
155mm French Schneider M.10/15 - unit 150 in the OOB

Anything else (various 150mm long guns, 150mm howitzers, 220mm guns, 305mm guns) was attached exclusively to the Supreme HQ.

Also, they did acquire 37mm Škoda AT guns in 1939.

Obviously there's no need to cram everything of the above in the OOB...

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

OK, last batch of suggestions. I think I've gone through pretty much all the relevant literature now.

Artillery and brigade support weapons – from 5/41 on

I’m afraid there’s – as far as I know – no literature on the subject in English, so my sources are:

Nikola Anić: Narodnooslobodilačka vojska Jugoslavije (Belgrade 1982, in Serbo-Croatian only)
Miloš Pajević: Artiljerija u NOR (Belgrade 1970, in Serbo-Croatian only)

The formations, especially before 1945, had incredible variety. I have tried to streamline them as much as possible for the sake of playability.
First I’ll list the weaponry used, then I’ll list the organizational structure, roughly divided into four time periods.


Weaponry

The weapons are listed by type, followed by a nation tag in brackets: YU – ex-Royal Yugoslav Army, IT – Italian captured, GE – German captured, USSR – Soviet aid, USA/UK – American or British aid, respectively. Bear in mind the designations are the local ones.

Note that the partisans abandoned the “80mm” designation for 76.5mm guns, and simply used “76mm” instead.

65mm mountain gun (YU) refers to unit 21 in this (Yugoslav) OOB
Date: 11/42-12/44

65mm mountain gun (IT) refers to unit 320/593 in spob34
Date: 11/42-12/44

75mm mountain gun (IT) refers to unit 324/325/595 in spob34
Date: 11/42-12/46

75mm mountain gun (GE) refers to unit 489 in spob16
Date: 1/45-12/46

76mm mountain gun (USSR) refers to unit 51 in spob11
Date: 1/45-12/46. Suggest radio code 2.

76mm field gun (YU) refers to unit 133 in this OOB (to keep things simpler)
Date: 11/42-12/46

76mm field gun (USSR) refers to unit 282 in spob11
Date: 1/45-12/46. Suggest radio code 2.

75mm pack howitzer (USA) refers to unit 165 in this OOB – after it is replaced according to Michal’s suggestions
Date: no changes from current OOB

75mm howitzer (YU) refers to unit 54 in this OOB
Date: 11/42-12/44

75mm howitzer (GE) refers to unit 152 in this OOB
Date: no changes from current OOB

100mm howitzer (YU) refers to unit 147 in this OOB (it was more common than the M.28, and to keep things simpler)
Date: 11/42-12/46

100mm howitzer (IT) refers to unit 31 in spob34
Date: 10/43-12/46. Suggest radio code 1.

105mm howitzer (YU) refers to unit 148 in this OOB
Date: 1/45-12/46. Suggest radio code 1.

105mm howitzer (GE) refers to unit 132 in spob16
Date: 1/45-12/46. Suggest radio code 1.

105mm howitzer (USA) refers to unit 164 in spob12
Date: 4/45-12/46

122mm howitzer (USSR) refers to the unit Michal mentioned above.
Date: no changes from current OOB

150mm howitzer (GE) refers to unit 151 in spob16
Date: 10/43-12/46. Suggest radio code 1.

152mm howitzer (GE) refers to unit 318 in spob16
Date: 10/43-12/46. Suggest radio code 1.

2pdr AT gun (UK) refers to unit 59 in spob07
Date: 1/45-12/45 (were used since 11/43, but only as coastal defense before 1945). Suggest radio code 1.

6pdr AT gun (UK) refers to unit 60 in spob07
Date: 9/44-12/46

25mm AA gun (USSR) refers to unit 347 in spob11
Date: 1/45-12/46

20mm AA gun (UK) refers to unit 749 in spob07
Date: 1/45-12/46

37mm AA gun (USSR) refers to unit 57 in this OOB
Date: no changes from current OOB

This also means the following guns that are in the current OOB were actually never used and should be removed:
unit 20 76L51 AT-Gun
unit 55/66 76.2mm L51 obr36 gun
unit 68 152mm FH

The other guns and respective formations (e.g. 37mm inf gun, various AT guns) that appear in the OOB don’t need any changes, except that the start date of the 7.5cm PaK (unit 24) should probably be 1/45, not 1/44.


Organization of Artillery

5/41-10/42

This period is mostly covered OK (there were just 37mm inf gun platoons and the odd AT gun).
Occasionally the partisans used some larger captured guns, but this was incredibly rare. I think the “captured” feature can simply be used to represent the few guns they did have (a dozen or so 65mm and 75mm mountain guns plus the odd 100mm howitzer).

11/42-9/43

This period saw the first true artillery units formed.
Each partisan brigade (in this period usually 1000 men divided into 4 battalions - so basically a partisan brigade was only equivalent to a battalion in a regular army) had:

-a single 45mm AT gun (from 5/43 rarely replaced by German 5cm PaK)
-2x light (usually Brixia) Mortars
-4x 81mm mortars
-8x MMG/HMGs

All these weapons are already in the Yugoslav OOB, I’m just listing this for a possible “brigade support weapons” formation.

A Division of partisans (usually 3 brigades) could have any or all of the following batteries (most, however, had only one):

-Mountain gun battery: 3x 65mm (IT, YU) or 3x 75mm (IT)
-Lt. Howitzer battery: 3x 75mm (YU, from 5/43 GE)
-Med. Howitzer battery 2: 2x 100mm (YU), sometimes with an extra 76mm field gun (YU)

A Partisan Corps could have one of the following:
-A Med. Howitzer battalion: 3x 100mm howitzer battery, each with 2 guns (YU)
-A Lt. Howitzer battalion: 3x 75mm howitzer battery, each with 3 guns (YU, from 5/43 GE)

10/43-12/44

Italian surrender meant a significant increase in available guns, and the British gave some artillery as aid.

Each partisan brigade had (on average):
-2x 45mm AT guns (rarely replaced by German 5cm PaK)
-4x light (usually Brixia) Mortars
-8x 81mm mortars
-8x MMG/HMGs
-2x 65mm mountain guns (YU, IT) or 75mm mountain guns (IT).

These are already implemented in the current OOB; again this is for a potential “brigade support weapons” formation.

A Division of partisans could have an artillery battalion consisting of the following, but in reality only the best divisions had a full-strength battalion:

-1x Mountain gun battery: 4x 65mm (IT, YU) or 4x 75mm (IT)
-1x Field Gun battery: 4x 76mm (YU)
-1x Howitzer battery: 4x75mm (YU, GE) or 4x 100mm (YU, IT) or 4x150mm (GE)

A Partisan Corps could have one or both of the following:
-A Med. Howitzer battalion: 3x 100mm howitzer battery, each with 2 guns (YU). Sometimes an additional, lone 152mm howitzer (GE) would be attached to the battalion.
-A Lt. Howitzer battalion: 3x 75mm howitzer battery, each with 3 guns (YU, GE)

A few units were equipped and trained by the British:
From 3/44, one infantry division had a battalion of 3 batteries, each with 4x 75mm pack howitzer (USA).

There were two motorized arty battalions deployed in 9/44 and 11/44. They had:
-2 batteries, each with 4x 75mm pack howitzer (USA).
-1 battery with 4x 6pdr AT guns (UK).

In 1945 both of these were incorporated into the artillery brigades.

In this period the partisans also got their hands on some MGCA M.37 Breda (AAMGs, see the Italian OOB). They were organized into platoons of 3.

1/45-12/46

The partisans grew into a regular army. By this time, a division had 10000 men. There was a massive influx of Soviet equipment, and most artillery was of their origin.

IMPORTANT: All of the following equipment is Soviet unless noted otherwise.

An infantry brigade (still 4 battalions, but now the battalions had a lot more men) had as support:
-2x platoons of 3x 45mm AT guns each
-a single platoon of 6x 12.7mm DShK AAMGs (these will need to be added to the OOB)
-3x platoons of 6x 82mm mortars each
-4x platoons of 6x 50mm mortars each
-3x platoons of 6x MMG/HMGs each
-4x 76mm field guns

Each infantry division at full strength would have an artillery brigade supporting it. The most common configuration was (note that sometimes captured equipment was used instead – if you wish to simplify you could just ignore most or all of the captured equipment):

1. battalion: 2 batteries, each with 4x 45mm AT guns. (very rarely with 57mm AT guns)
-sometimes replaced with 50 or 75mm PaK guns (GE), or 2pdr/6pdr guns (UK)

2. battalion: 3 batteries, each with 4x 76mm field gun or 4x 76mm mountain gun.
-sometimes replaced with 75mm mountain guns (IT, GE), 76mm field guns (YU), or 75mm pack howitzers (USA).

3. battalion: 3 batteries, each with 4x 120mm mortar.

4. heavy battalion: 2 batteries, each with 4x 76mm field gun plus 1 battery with 4x 122mm howitzer.
-sometimes replaced with 100mm howitzers (YU, IT), 105mm howitzers (YU, GE) or 150mm howitzers (GE). From 4/45, 105mm howitzers (USA) were also used.

5. AA battalion: 3 batteries, each with 4x 25mm AA gun

Occasionally there was an independent battery of 2x 152mm howitzers (GE) available.

There were independent batteries of 6x 37mm AA guns (USSR) or 20mm AA guns (UK).

From 3/45 captured German 8.8cm FlaKs were available, organized into independent batteries of 2 guns, with transport. Used as AT guns.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Do you have any details, especially range and barrel length of 75 mm M.28? What bothers me, is a coincidence in designation with 80 mm gun, which was also a mountain gun, but with a barrel L/40 and a very decent range 13.1 km. According to Chamberlain, M.28 was manufactured in two versions: 76.5mm for Yugoslavia and 75mm for Romania, also unspecified variant was used in Czechoslovakia.
And another question is, if it was really used as infantry gun (directly supporting infantry). Unit 54 has a limited on-map range.

By the way, M.5/8 gun was Skoda as well, and also could be broken down and used as mountain gun.
According to Chamberlain, also more modern 80mm Skoda M.17 mountain gun was used (range 11.4km).

---
As an off-topic, since I can't send you a private message: do you know what camouflage was used on captured Somua tanks? I can only find a photo of a tank upgunned wih 6pdr, which shows only a flag on a turret, but no camouflage. Also, are there any photos of partisan Autoblinda or Sdkfz-222 with markings? - I'm asking for a sake of my colour pictures.

Regards
Michal

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

To be honest, I'm not sure, artillery really isn't my forte. But you may be right - the book I used as the source (Aralica: Hrvatski ratnici kroz stoljeća/Croatian warriors through the centuries) does have quite a few typos/editing errors - it's quite possible the 80mm M.28 was really a field gun.

EDIT: found details for 75mm M.28: barrel length 1.34m L/18, range 8.7 km.

I've checked again, Chamberlain is right, but it was used in very small numbers.


Here I can help you more: the Somuas used the same camo as they had in German service. I can't tell the exact colours, but probably something like this: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/somua.jpg
The only marking was a red star, replacing the Balkenkreuz.

Here's a photo of a captured AB41 (camo is described as "yellowish"): http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5563/blinda2ajs7.jpg
The only marking was "Tenk bataljon" written in white, on the right side of the hull, just below the turret.

No photo of the Sdkfz 222 exists - as I've mentioned in the first post, they were only captured when the Germans surrendered, and it's not know if they were ever used. But as a general rule, the partisans did not paint over captured vehicles.

The 6pdr Somua was one of a kind vehicle by the way (the gun was taken from a destroyed AEC mk II).

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

001 FT-17 tank is too fast (in all OOBs) - speed 6 (it drove less than 8 km/h), but I assume, that it's in order to keep up with infantry in the game?

Maybe then 005 M.28 should be one point faster, to show, that it could drive 16 km/h? (now also 6). Interesting thing, that it's now cheaper, than FT-17, despite being canon-armed.

There were also used FT-17 with 37mm gun (lower photo at http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/f...enault_m24.htm)

094 S-Id - it was known in Yugoslavia as T-32 (S-Id was Skoda's designation).
Armament should be 37mm Skoda A3 gun (weapon 013 from Czechoslovak oob), not 47 mm, and it carried 42 rounds.
MG should be renamed to vz.30.
Front and side armour was 12-22 mm (no specific info), so at least in front it should be strengthened to 2.
Speed was 41 km/h (now 15)
[data from Kliment/Francev "Czechoslovak Armored Fighting Vehicles 1918-1948" and a Russian Bronekollektsya 5/99]

That's what I assumed, creating a picture (will be in a following pack ;) )

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

095 NC.27 - there is some confusion in designations of Renault tanks from 1920s, but Yugoslavia had only a series of M.28 tanks (aka M27/28 or M26/27 or NC-2), with Kegresse rubber tracks (publications vary mow many there were). As far as it is known, there were no NC-27 tanks of a pictured model, with modified hull and steel tracks, especially acquired in 1937.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Well spotted. The only armoured vehicles the Royal Army had were:

1st tank battalion: FT-17 and M.28 (54 total)
2nd tank battalion: R-35 (54)
armoured vehicle squadron: T-32 (8), Berliet-White armoured car (3), "SPAK" armoured car (1 - no idea what this was, possibly a WW1-era Italian armoured car), locally-made armoured truck (2)

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Maybe 005 M.28 is supposed to be just FT-17 with a gun, while 097 NC.27 is supposed to be a tank with modified suspension (speed 7). But, apart from a name, the picture shows other version, they should be available from 1930, and they were canon-armed (on known photos at least), and with the same armour.

I've spotted one more thing:
159 Hurricane I - it should be rather armed with 8 MGs, not 20 mm guns, like Mk.IIc.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

It's possible. But as you've said, the M.28 was acquired in 1929, so I'm pretty sure the NC.27 should be taken out. Not sure about the speed, but I don't think I've ever seen any tank with speed less than 6. Maybe it's something hard-coded inot the game engine?

I've found out that 2/3 of the FT-17/M.28 tanks were armed with 37mm guns, and that 3/4 of the tanks were the FT-17 model. So that means there were definitely FT-17 model tanks with 37mm guns.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

There is one picture 23118 showing Romanian monitor of the same class, as Sava. I can provide pictures of all, if there is such need.

Michal

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I guess, that since they are infantry tanks, they shouldn't be slower, than infantry, which actually runs in the game :)

So, I think, that we need three tanks: FT MG-armed, FT gun-armed and M.28 gun-armed. Do you know, if M.28 was their official designation? They are usually described in sources as M.26/27 or M.27/28 or NC-2 and nobody seems to know what is correct.

By the way: a proper picture for MG-armed 001 FT is eg. 27560.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Correct, those three versions you mention were used. Official designation was M.28 - I'm 100% sure of this.

By the way, an interesting thing I just noticed is that the Germans captured some of the T-32s and they received the designation "PzKpfW 732 (j)". It's the first time I see a weapon with the "j" (jugoslawisch) designation. Unfortunately there's no space in the German OOB for them... And nobody seems to know where the Germans deployed them - they were no longer in Yugoslavia when the Germans surrendered in 1945, and there are no reports mentioning they were ever deployed in Yugoslavia.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

And for my final contribution, some .lbm files for Yugoslavia. I've tried them and they work fine in my game. Readme file is in the archive and details what they're meant to replace (for the infantry that is; the vehicles and arty should be obvious).

Attachment 12636

(yes, most of the SMGs are actually Sten guns, but I couldn't find any *good* photo of a SMG squad armed with PPSh-41s)

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

To be precise, a Polish tankette is TK-3 (TK).

I'm interested in Polish stuff - do you know, how many were acquired, and if they were TK-3 or also TKS?

BTW: I like an artillery observer :)

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

There really are no tanks with speed less than 6, which translates to 18 km/h. The real FT-17 of course could do about 8 km/h on road, which would be speed 3 in game terms. I think the original SP and DOS SPWW2 limited the minimum speed of motor vehicles to 6, but as far as I know that limitation is no longer in place. Setting the unit sound manually may still be necessary. Perhaps Don can enlighten us. I don't have time to try that right now.

As for the NC.27, the Landships website claims that some were sold to Yugoslavia:

http://www.landships.info/landships/tank_articles.html#

It's under French tanks.

Unfortunately the article does not mention the source, so who knows where the writer got that info from.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

As I've said, it would be unreasonable to have tanks slower, than the infantry in the game, so I guess there's no use to change this lower limit.

As for the Landships, they clearly mix two tanks: NC-2 (M-26/27) with Kegresse rubber tracks, which was actually used by Yugoslavia (photos Renault_NC_6 and 7 on that page) and redesigned NC-1/NC-27 with steel tracks.

Michal

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Sorry, I missed your post for some reason.

Well the most recent book on the subject (see the original post) claims they were TKS... but then on one of the photos it's marked as a TK-3. :confused:

Local reports always simply call them "Ursus", which is why some older literature assume Croatia had Ursus Armoured Cars - but this has since been disproved.

Anyway there were around 16-20 such tankettes in Croatian service. Some sources mention 18, others say 16 + 4 for spare parts etc.

They don't appear to have seen as much action as the L3 tankettes, and none of them were captured by the partisans until near the very end of the war. Those that were captured were not used in battle anymore, but only for training.

-----------------

If Don is reading this, I missed something in the original list: Desant teams (Tankodesants). Should be available from 3/45 onwards. Armament and organization was identical to their Soviet counterparts, except that there were no PPSh-43 and RPG-43.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

The tankette on the photo http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/577/048ip.jpg is for sure TK-3 (also known as TK). Or, more precisely, it might be a sub-model TKF (late TK-3 with TKS suspension, as a tankette in Belgrad museum), but it's hard to say.

Michal

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I had a look at your website to help identify the tankettes, and from what I can tell they all seem to be either TK-3 or TKF. There are two sets of relevant photos in the book I mentioned: one shows three of them driving through a village, the other show seven (from a different unit) lined up for review. Of course, that does leave another 6-10 unaccounted for.

Nice site, btw. :)

Oh, and that photo of the TKS on your site - it's probably a propaganda photo as you suspected. The camo scheme is quite different from that used by all other Croatian tanks, and the "redarstvena straža" - I assume this refers to the Croatian "oružništvo" (gendarmes), not the German Ordnungspolizei - generally had worse equipment than the other branches of the armed forces. So I don't think they would have gotten the more modern tankettes when the Ustaše and Home Guard used the older model.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

One more thing:
075 76.2mm AT-Gun - has a picture of PAK-40, should be 30502 IF it is L51 indeed.

However, as for all 76L51 guns (units 020, 055, 066, 075) I'd rather expect, that they are standard late war ZiS-3 M1942 L41 - weapon 60 from Soviet OOB, with range corrected to 203 (real 13.3).
Correct picture then is 14139 (used for unit 282 in Soviet oob, but very unclear) or Polish 29377 or 101.

Michal

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I already mentioned this (except the lbm issue) in an earlier post. You're right though, the only 76.2mm caliber guns of Soviet origin in the Yugoslav Army were ZiS-3 M1942 L41 and the low-velocity M1927 L16(unit 51 in Soviet OOB).

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I must have forgotten this.

----

Now, I have a pack of proposed aircraft pictures:

- unit 271 Caproni Ca.310 shows Norwegian version with long nose (shared with Norwegian OOB). Attached Yugoslav Ca.311 can replace pm29037 - unused Norwegian Ca310 (Yugoslavia used Ca.310bis and 311, both with glazed nose)
- unit 275 S.M. 79 - current picture 16001 shows Italian markings, but is unused by Italy, and can be replaced.
- unit 277 Hawker Fury in a current oob is a British 2-seater Hind

I'm also attaching Do 17, Bf 109 and Croatian MS 406
All but MS 406 come from a page http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...rt=0&finish=-1 with plenty of photos.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

To Zastava: you could try to find some photo with LMGs, because a photo of unit 157 Light MGs doesn't look like one.

And what model should be Maxim used by unit 158?

PS. when creating pictures, you can experiment with increasing contrast to obtain clearer photos.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

It's a detail, but it's worth to slightly modify an icon 912 of unit 278 Ikarus IK-2 - it should have an inline engine (now it looks like PZL P-24). By the way, machine guns from wings could be removed from the icon - it had armament in nose (http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/yug...karus_ik-2.gif).

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

To Don:

One further thing I've found out, formation 26 (truck platoon) had 4 vehicles, not 3 - at least from 5/41 on that is. Not sure if it also applied to the Royal Army.

Also perhaps add a (captured) Panzerfaust AT team from 1/45? They weren't too common, but some 200 were captured by the end of the war.
-perhaps something like spob19 unit 068?

-------------

Pibwl:

Can't find any usable ones unfortunately... Bizarre since it was the most common LMG but there you have it.

It was MG 08/15, WW1 vintage.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I probably won't be starting work on the Yugo OOB until after Christmas and as much as I would like to use the LBM's most are , to be honest, not salvageable, but if you can give me links to where you found them I can start fresh with the originals unless you have the originals on file and if you do we can work out a transfer.

Don

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Very well, here's the links. I've found some additional/better photos in the meantime.

Ustase militia
http://forum.axishistory.com/downloa....php?id=102343
http://forum.axishistory.com/downloa....php?id=102349
http://i48.tinypic.com/2rxie79.jpg

Ustase Ansaldo
http://forum.axishistory.com/downloa....php?id=131516

Ustase TK-3 (not TKS as I originally thought...)
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/577/048ip.jpg

Ustase PzKW I
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3985/pz1tranpm3di3.jpg

Ustase L6/40
http://i52.tinypic.com/3583wba.jpg
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...97186&start=30

Ustase PzKw IV F1
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3...kwf20iv4vb.jpg

Partisan Autoblinda 41
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5563/blinda2ajs7.jpg

Partisan AEC MKII
http://stef124.tripod.com/Aec-3.jpg
or
http://stef124.tripod.com/Aec-2.jpg

Various Cetnik infantry:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tnici_1944.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/524...nicetnici2.jpg
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/7562/zzzzeo.jpg
http://i35.piczo.com/view/2/b/v/9/6/...2809_46078.gif
http://s017.radikal.ru/i419/1203/11/f83ca4ccaab5.jpg
http://www.shotgunnews.com/files/201...hetniks.02.jpg

Partisan Schwarzlose HMG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...vnica_1944.jpg

Partisan T-34/76
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/f...01945/a001.jpg
or
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/f...-34_hex_94.jpg

Partisan T-34/85
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/yugoslav...t_34_85_01.jpg

Forward Observer
http://www.barikada.com/slike04/yugo...kovacevic1.jpg

Partisan Hetzer
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2...6_hetzer-3.JPG

Partisan L6/40
http://oklop2.tripod.com/fiatl6-1.jpg
or
http://www.ratnakronikasplita.com/sl...ja_tenkova.jpg

Partisan L3 tankette
http://oklop2.tripod.com/fiat-1.jpg

Partisan M7 Priest
http://www.oklop.net23.net//m7/m7-3.jpg

Partisan M8 Scott
http://stef124.tripod.com/m-8how.jpg
or
http://stef124.tripod.com/m8-1how.jpg

Partisan PIAT
http://www.mycity-military.com/slika..._john_bull.JPG

Partisan M15/42
http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php...h=268431;image

Partisan H39
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2...7580_h39-9.jpg

Partisan scout
http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/q...plitvice-1.jpg

Partisan 81mm Mortar
http://24.media.tumblr.com/3972074df...oy9ro1_500.jpg

Various Partisans (1941 to 1944)
-basically, these can replace the pics of any of the following units: 42, 45, 87, 115, 118, 122
http://tacno.net/wp-content/uploads/...8455350905.jpg
http://www.jutarnji.hr/multimedia/ar...i_227159S1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ka_brigada.JPG
http://makarska-post.com/wp-content/.../partizani.jpg
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/...vPartisans.jpg
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=74882

Yugoslav Army 1945
-these can replace the pics of any of the following units: 47, 48, 81, 82
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...COURTHOUSE.jpg
http://www.radiosarajevo.ba/upload/i...evo_6april.jpg
http://globus.jutarnji.hr/incoming/2...eb1-1-copy.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...X/Scan0018.jpg
http://www.mladina.si/media/www/slik...ec_display.jpg
http://www.evarazdin.hr/cms/wp-conte...ni-485x273.jpg

Partisan cavalry
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2...Leskovac...jpg

Partisan M1 Pack Howitzer
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=75748

Partisan Breda AA
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=87983

Partisan Hurricane IV
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/x...psc0db82a0.jpg

Partisan Spitfire V
http://www.forgottenairfields.com/up...ne/04_Kane.jpg
or
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories...ugoslavia1.jpg

Partisan Spitfire IX
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/769...unikvi1945.jpg

Partisan Il-2 (this photo is from just after the end of the war - during the war they still had Soviet markings)
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs/...so%201945..jpg


I'm attaching several more that can't be found online to the zip file below. Some may not be good enough but I'm afraid that's the only usable ones I found (others either have lots of soldiers on them, are partly obscured etc.).


A couple of photos (Breda MG, Oerlikon AA, BA-64) are MIA. They'll probably have to wait for version 7.0

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

One comment I forgot, related to the pictures for SMG and engineer squads.

I couldn't really find a photo of a Yugoslav SMG squad with PPsh-41, but the current OOB has a Soviet soldier - who looks rather out of place (the Yugoslav Army didn't use helmets, for a start). Ditto for the engineers.

So if you don't want to use one of the photos provided above,
my suggestion would be to use:

LBM 21034 for units 48 and 82
LBM 14009 for unit 52

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Thanks. It's all now on the list. Some great photos here. However, some ( I have not checked every one ) like

Partisan H39
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2...7580_h39-9.jpg

and

Partisan Hetzer
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2...6_hetzer-3.JPG

given me back " 403 forbidden" so I'm guessing any others from mycity-military will give me the same. If you could dig those out and post them I will be able to used them ( edit- EXCEPT the PIAT... that allowed me to view it )

Don

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

You're welcome.

Strange, seems some from mycity-military still work for me, but some have stopped. In any case here's a zip with all pics from that site (except the PIAT).

Seems that Tripod is acting up as well so I've also added the AEC and M8 Scott pics to the zip.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

The internet can be cranky sometimes. The IL-2 I got OK the first time around but with those other sites who knows they may have worked for me if I tried again 10 minutes later

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I think you should give a link to a page with pictures instead of linking to pictures - hotlinking to content might be disabled.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

How big would a Partisan Cav formation get ? I have a rather interesting mounted Cav "platoon" built. There were 10 man partisans in that OOB and a group of 5 man units all under the same unitclass and I've separated them into 10 man 76-partisan and 5 man 234-partisan squad. It's those 5 many units I'm mounting two per cav mount unit. Right now I have a nominal platoon of 30 --six units plus three mount units but I don't know if I should make a full company as well


Don

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I've looked up Anić and - guess what - partisan cav platoons officially had 30 men. :) There was one such platoon per partisan brigade (when possible).

Companies ("squadrons" would be a better translation) did exist, but only from 9/44 on. They had 3 platoons each (+ squadron HQ).

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Just noticed I attached the pic of a StuG III G but it's not on my list of suggestions. To clear that up: a couple of them were captured as early as 11/44 in Belgrade, but were only used for training. A few may have been pressed into service in the last days of the way (crewed by Germans who were held at gunpoint). So if you do put them in, they should be 5/45 or 6/45 to 12/46.

Another thing: since the Autoblinda 41 is going to be moved to a later date, this will mean the Armoured Car formation will be empty until 9/43. Will this cause a problem with AI picklists? If so, I can upload a photo of an improvised AC that could plug that gap.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

upload the photo

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Ok. There were probably only 3 such vehicles. One can be found here (this is after it was captured and disarmed by the Germans):

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/valiant...48392?page=348

Unfortunately I don't have their specs. If it helps, they were probably based on some sort of Magirus-Deutz light truck.

Weapon was probably a Breda MG.

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

OK , for want of a better name we're going to call that a M-D AC and it's going to use the same specs and Icon as the Russian FAI but without a radio

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

OK.......... what is not clear in that link is that it is a Bundesarchive photo taken in 1941.

If you go to this link

http://www.histomil.com/viewtopic.ph...3918&start=110

and scroll down the page you will find a larger version of this photo with the Bundesarchive info ( and once you start with this archive you'll be on line for hours... ) so it may be that this AC had been around for awhile ?

Don

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Well you just might be onto something. That photo was always labelled as mid-1942, Kozara Offensive. I'll have another look through more of the relevant literature when I find the time.

That topic you linked is amazing but yeah 403 pages...

------------

Edit: one more question: what's the "average" morale rating for partisans/resistance fighters supposed to be? It seems to vary a quite a bit from OOB to OOB - unlike experience, which is almost always 60-65. To illustrate:

French resistance
1942: 65
43-44: 70

Soviet partisans
41: 60
42: 65
43-44: 70

Yugoslav partisans
41-43: 60
44: 65

Italian partisans
43: 58
44: 63
45: 68

Polish AK
41: 70
42-44: 75

Polish AL (communist)
42: 50
43-44: 55

Czech:
41-45: 60

Norwegian
41-45: 65

Bulgarian:
42-44: 65

Greek:
41-43: 70
44-46: 75

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

The answer is..... it varies in the OOB's then the code varies it some more

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

I already had over 500 new photos in SPWW2.......then I found that resource..... ( ! )

The selection of photos I have never seen before is fantastic ( and I have been taking advantage of it...) and it's not just German stuff although that makes up a lot of it


take a look at this for example

http://www.histomil.com/viewtopic.ph...918&start=3700

scroll down to the sixth photo down...............

"Soldiers of the Carpathian Lancers Regiment (2nd 'Warsaw' Armoured Brigade, 2nd Polish Corps) posing by a destroyed German Panther Ausf G tank."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...4&d=1386591308


look at what's on the roof of the panther. Look close it's actually two plates of spaced armour. That's the first time I have seen that and it appears to be a limited modification

Don


Here's another shot of the same tank ( before it had been looted a bit ) that shows the two plates better. This may have been a field mod but if so it was a sophisticated one

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1386603481



Futher digging reveals that in a book titled "Panzer Wreaks" there are "13 pictures of Panthers from 1./Pz.Rgt. 26. Two of these modified vehicles, numbers 424 and 434, have been knocked out in the night of the 15/16 April 1945 near Sesto Imolese, Italy."

So my best guess is this is a Field mod confined to this one unit but still......... never seen this before

FURTHER EDIT

Now I'm tripping over photos of this tank. Here's another one take from a different angle at a different time


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1386632684

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

Well now I'll have something to look through over the holidays :)

OK, thanks. I'll post in the appropriate OOB topic if I have any more comments on this.

------

Also, if I understand correctly, the AI will be able to take allies in the next version, right? I don't know how exactly that will work, but I can provide some info on Allied troops in Yugoslavia if needed (Soviet, British, pro-allied Bulgarian).

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

The AI's been able to take allies for years. Right now we have enough to do

Re: spob20 Yugoslavia corrections/suggestions
 

One thing I forgot about - since I always play *as* the partisans rather than *against* them - are the rarity radio codes for the armoured vehicles.

So here's just a few suggestions on that:

073 - code 1. There were only a few M3A1 Stuarts. Basically these were rescued from Allied scrapheaps in Italy and repaired.

105 - code 2. Over 90% of the Stuarts delivered by the British were this model.

110 - code 0. There were around 6 of these... but the only other TDs were the captured ones (Hetzer, Semovente, StuG), and those were just as rare as the Stuart funnies.


I've also found a few more photos. Will upload soon.