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Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Time for Poland, before next release.
The information on British vehicles in Polish service comes as a rule from a great book by J. Magnuski "Wozy bojowe Polskich Sił Zbrojnych 1940-1946" (Polish AFVs 1940-1946) Class 12 Light tank: 08 Honey II - in Polish Army they were known under the tank's official name Stuart II (Honey was a British nickname). According to Magnuski, they were received not earlier, than 9/42 (now 7/42). This type was used for training only until autumn 1943 (now 5/44) - later they were replaced by Stuart V. Picture 380 is M3A3 Stuart V, while it should be earlier model. Perfect for the British service is 27736, or a photo 12539. It should have a stabiliser (like British one), but a gun should be M5 (like British standard Honey). The ammo load seems too AP-biased. There should be added Stuart V, with M6 gun and slanted armour (possibly the same overall thickness) and photo 380. They were used from late 1943 until 1946. 09 Stuart VI - is OK 453 Vickers Mk VIc - only Mk VIb variant was used (#298 from a British oob) with .50 Vickers TMG and Vickers CMG. Photo 631 is probably OK. It was used only for training in Egypt from 6/42 until 11/43 (now: 7/40-6/42) 470 FR AMR-35, 473 - FR AMR-35 ZT - they probably represent French tanks (available 11/039 to 06/040), but IMO there's no need for French tanks in Polish OOB, especially, that Polish units used own R-35 at that time. Changes in Class 12 need changes in formations: 184, 185 which either need a gap in 7/40-5/42 period, or they should start in 6/42, if you remove AMR-35 completely. Also, in 396 Infantry Tk Co (avail. 07/40-03/41) a light tank needs to be removed. Maybe it should be replaced with Dingo or something else, but I don't know what. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Class 105 Infantry tank
10, 11 Matilda II, CS - there is no trace of Matilda II in Polish service. They could be replaced with Churchill II, used for training from around 8/41 until 5/42 (data like British Churchill I, but with Besa BMG instead of 3in CSH). There's no evidence, if Polish units had also Churchill I. 16 Sherman I 17 Sherman V 19 Sherman IB - I can't understand a reason why these tanks are used in late-war Infantry Tank units, if they are doubled as ordinary Medium tanks in the OOB (and even tripled as CS tanks). There were no infantry tank units in Polish forces at that time and Sherman tanks were used in combat in the 1st Armoured Division and 2nd Armoured Brigade, not infantry tank units. IMO they could be removed. Otherwise, they should be corrected, accordingly with units 26, 27, 29 (described later). 446 Matilda I - used for training from 9/41 until 9/42 only (now: 7/40-12/40). Max speed was 13 km/h (now 6) [Magnuski] - same for the British OOB units 27 and 112. There could be also variant with .50 Vickers TMG, possibly replacing unit 11 Matilda II. 457 FT-18 - there was no official designation "FT-18", and such designation isn't met in Poland (new works suggest though, that even a popular "FT-17" isn't an official designation, and they were just "Renault FT"). Anyway, I suggest a name "FT-17 /37mm" or "Renault FT 37mm" I don't know why are they supposed to be used until 10/41 - they were used by the Poles until a fall of France in 6/40 only, and for training (in fact, they ceased to be used in 10/39 and were given by the French again in 3/40). Is radio 1 correct? 471 - FR Char-D2 - Available 11/039 to 06/040 472 - FR Char-B1 - Available 11/039 to 06/040 - again, they are French tanks, not used by the Poles (and I assume, that the Polish infantry did not even met these types in field). Polish forces in France used in combat R-35, which was by definition an infantry tank, and is forgotten for that period in the OOB. They should be used in 5-6/40. Both variants with short and long 37mm guns were used (according to Magnuski, long guns had platoons' commanders). Most probably there were 3-tank platoons - four platoons and a commander's tank created a company (like in a Polish 1939 R-35 battalion). Also R-40 tanks were used in 6/40, all with long 37mm guns, in uniform companies. R-35 tank can replace #477 H-35 tank - there were only few (2?) used for training only. It's a matter of choice if R-35 should be 13 or 105 class. Maybe there should be created separate uniform units with R-40 and mixed units with R-35 short barrel and long barrel for a commander. FT-17 with MG / gun could fit into the same formations (gun for a commander - they were used for training only anyway). --- As a result, all class 105 Inf tank formations need to be changed - they should end in 6/40 and start again in 8/41 (Churchill) until 9/42 (Matilda I). |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
The "French" equipment probably dates from before we introduced the ALLIES button, and were there to represent French troops attached in support of the Poles in that period. (There are or used to be other OOBs that have this sort of stuff, e.g. Free French, the UK used to have the oddities for Polish and French units in Norway at one point).
So they probably can be removed, bar any French-supplied equipment actually in use by themselves in that brief period. That may well require some pick list changes - its been a long time since I looked at the Polish one. Andy |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Since there should be Polish R-35s in 5-6/40, there's no need of French tanks IMO.
I suggest to make it this way: A standard platoon, for a pick list, should be made of one long gun tank (eg. class 105) and two short gun tanks (eg. class 106, like unit 456 FT-17). FT-17s should have radio code 1, R-35 should have 2. Four such platoons should create a company (3-tank platoons and 13-tank companies have been confirmed). Such formations should be available in 3-6/40. I suggest also to create strengthened platoons, with three long-gun tanks and with two long-gun and one short-gun tank, in 6/40, representing a choice of tanks after less valuable ones had been left without a fuel (they could be marked eg. with ++/+). It's also worth to create such company, with, say, four platoons with two long-gun tanks - I believe, it would represent better a mixed company taking part in a last skirmish of Montbard. There should be also added R-40 tank (194 in a French oob), used in uniform platoons and companies. I believe it's best to give it own class, with separate formations. Picture could be 27549 or 27564. By the way, R-40 could be given a modified icon, with slightly longer tracks to the rear, and a tail. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
...........on the list
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Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
It might be noted, that in 11/39 - 2/40 and 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only (in UK and Egypt/Palestine). They could have faced some invasion however...
Next: (mainly class 13 Med tanks) 12 Valentine III - this variant was used only from 2/43 until at least 11/43 (now 11/41 - 12/42) Photo shows some 3-men early variant (as in the British OOB) 13, 14 Valentine IX - similar Valentine VIII is known to be used by the Polish, from 2/43 until at least 11/43 (now 7-12/42 for #13, 1-12/43 for #14 with AAMG). There is no information on Polish Valentine IX. There are no AAMGs on photos of Polish tanks evident (and it was not, that only after 1/43 all 6pdr Valentines were fitted with AAMG - so they might be two options of the same tank, or merged into one, either with, or without AAMG). 448 Valentine II - used from 11/40 until at least 5/42 (now 7/40-10/41). (Possibly earliest were Valentine I, but it's essentially the same). By the way, as for Valentines in all OOBs: in Valentine III and V due to increased weight, side hull armour was reduced from 60 to 50 mm, and in VIII-XI - to 43 mm (now they all have 6). Turret rear (at least in 2pdr variants, but maybe in all) had 60 mm (according to some sources, even 65 mm) - now it has 5. 18 Sherman I [as CS tank] - generally 75mm Sherman I wasn't used by the Polish. It should be changed to Sherman III, which was a basic tank of the 2nd Arm.Bde on Italian theatre, used from 10/43 until end of 1946 (now 1/43-5/45). Photo is M4A1 Sherman II - could be 27725 or 27726. (I omit Infantry Tank Shermans mentioned before, to be removed IMO) 21 Comet - wasn't used by the Polish. 24, 146 Centurion Mk 1 - sci-fi unit in Polish case. 26 Sherman I (Med tank) - as unit 18, should be replaced with Sherman III, used in 10/43-12/46 (and fitted with AAMG). 27 Sherman V - used from 10/43 (OK) until 11/44 in combat units (now 12/46). (I'm not counting Polish training units in UK, which sure used them longer. In case of the 3rd war they could have been used) 28, 125, 130, 200 VC Firefly - I suggest name Sherman Firefly - there are only Fireflies VC in this OOB, and a difference between Firefly IC (which was also used by the Polish) is not worth mentioning. Units 28 and 200 [class Gun tank] should be merged into one IMO. The only difference is, that #200 is available in 6-7/44 and has radio code 0, while #28 is available in 8/44-12/46 and has radio code 1, which is strange, since it should be more popular with time, and there's nothing, that could replace it in Sherman troops. IMO there should be only unit 28 left, with a radio code 0, available from 6/44 until the end. 29 Sherman IB [CS tank] - used from 2/45 only (9/44). 33 Crocodile - wasn't used by the Polish. The only flame tank used, that could be added, was Wasp IIC (#128 in British OOB), used probably from around 6/44 (no closer date). Photos of Polish vehicles show, that they also had external Bren mounted (same could be for the British OOB). To finish with class 13 Med tanks: 438 Grant I - should be removed - there were only few recovered Grants used for training as non-standard vehicles. 3 were used as command tanks in the 2nd Arm.Bde. staff. 441 Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer) 442 Crusader II - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 (now 1/42 - 9/42) (used mostly as command tanks, so we can finish with them earlier as well). Late tanks had removed BMG turret. 443 Crusader I - not used by the Polish, especially from 5/41 444 A13 Mk II - not used by the Polish. Should be replaced with A13 Mk III Covenanter (986 in British OOB), used from 5/42 until 11/43. Radio code should be 0 or 1 (now 2 - it was less numerous and worse, than Crusader). An interesting fact is, that Polish Covenanter is regarded as the first tank knocked out on the British soil by the Germans (bombed on 1/6/42). 474 - FR Somua S-35 - to be removed 477 - H-35 - as I wrote, few were used for training - might be removed. I'll deal with formations later. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:
375 44 Tank Sqdn 376 44 Tank Troop - available: 06/44-12/45 (OK) They seem to be on AI pick list in 06/44 - 12/45 Now a troop has 3 tanks and a Firefly, like a British troop. Magnuski writes about three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly. He might be wrong, though I can't find a reliable source on British tank troops in 1944 - some web pages say 3 tanks, some 4 tanks. Such Firefly troops were used by the 1st Arm.Div. in Western Europe in 6/44-10/44, and by the 2nd Arm.Bde. in Italy in 2/45-12/45 By the way: it's worth to change Troop to Platoon, to better fit Polish naming (pluton). 012 46 Tank Company 013 46 Tank Platoon - Available: 01/46-12/46 They seem to be on AI pick list in 1/46 - 12/46 Now it has 4 tanks - a template unit should be changed from a fictitious Centurion. I think, that four 3-tank platoons will be more appropriate (now it has three 4-tank platoons) - seems, that 3 were standard in Great Britain, possibly with exception of added Fireflies. Its availability should extend back from 11/44 - it would represent the 1st Arm.Div rearmed to Sherman IIA In 1/46-12/46 it would also represent the 2nd Arm.Div (former Bde) deprived of Fireflies post-war (switched to diesel-only) A small problem is, that in 6/44-12/45 the formations used in Western Europe and Italy were different (in Italy Fireflies were received only in 2/45, while in ETO the 1st Arm.Div had switched to uniform Sherman IIA platoons in 11/44). I suggest to solve it this way: - unit #203 Sherman IIA [Gun tank] should be changed to Med tank with a radio code 2, available until 12/46 (now 12/45). (its usage as a Gun tank is wrong). - formation 012 46 Tank Company should be the AI pick from 11/44. It will ignore usage of Firefly companies in Italy, but a primary theatre of operation was ETO, where Polish Shermans IIA could be met - and they also fulfilled occupation service in Germany post-war - formation 375 44 Tank Sqdn should be picked by the AI in 6/44-10/44 only - if unit 027 Sherman V is available after 11/44, it should have radio code changed to 0 Besides, it's worth to change Company to Sqdn, to better fit Polish naming (szwadron), and to remove "46" naturally. 190 Medium Tank - Available: 11/39-12/46 391 Medium Tank Sec - Available: 11/39-12/46 - concerning Polish tanks only, it should be available from 11/40. And they rather should be used in platoons by 3, not sections by 2. 257 Pel AMC (DLM) - Available: 11/39-06/40 258 Esc AMC (DLM) - Available: 11/39-06/40 - formations of French tanks, to be removed. 377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 09/42-05/44 378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 07/40-08/42 379 Cruiser Tk Trp - Available: 07/40-05/44 - names are not appropriate, for they also use Valentines (even as a template unit). Before 4/44 Polish tanks were used for training, and the units in ME used Valentines all the time, while the units in the UK switched to cruisers in 6/42, so I suggest to rename it just Tank Squadron / Tank Platoon. Formation 377 (with 2 CS tanks) should be extended to 1/45, to cover as far, as Sherman-armed 2nd Arm.Bde units before it got Fireflies. Then, it should be on AI pick list in 1/44 - 5/44 (or maybe even earlier). It seems, that in this period, the AI buys 397 Inf Tk Sqdn, what makes us keep unit 16 Sherman I as an infantry tank. Maybe an OOB creator considered the 2nd Arm.Bde to be infantry tank unit, but I don't think it is the case, even if it was a part of the 2nd Corps and often fought together with infantry. IMO there's no need to introduce more units, than it's needed and duplicate Shermans as Med and Infantry tanks. Especially, that from 2/45 these Infantry tanks should be supplemented with Fireflies. (BTW, unit 16 could be re-nationalized rather then deleted, since it may be used in some user scenarios.) As for period from 11/39 until 12/43, it seems, that the AI buys an allied French or British infantry tank company. It seems quite reasonable, for there were no Polish tank units in field at that time, except for 5-6/40. In the last period, we could create an R-35 company, described earlier. Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Further in units:
34 Priest - wasn't used by the Polish 37 Bishop - wasn't used by the Polish Template unit in formation 82 SPA Troop should be 36 Sexton, and it should start at 1/44 43 Humber Mk IV - photo is MK.II/III (proper is 30121). Used by the Polish from 6/43 (now 1/44) - for training only 44 Daimler A/C - used in 8/42-10/43 (now 1/43-5/44) - for training only 45 Staghound (precisely, Staghound I) - used from around 9/43 (now 6/44), radio should be 92 (common). 61 2 pdr AA-Gun - never heard of such gun in Polish units. Should be replaced with ordinary 40 mm Bofors. 104 Hurricane II - precisely IIc (with 20 mm guns). I assume, that the aircraft don't have to be from Polish RAF squadrons (which had no operational independence), but rather a general RAF air support? (eg. Polish squadrons had no Typhoons) 125 VC Firefly [Med tank, 1946] - to be removed - Fireflies weren't used as Med tanks in that period. 128 4.7in Naval Gun - in Polish it should be 120mm Naval Gun 129 6in Naval Gun - in Polish it should be 152mm Naval Gun (I assume it's allied general support) 130 VC Firefly [Tank destroyer] - I'm not sure, if it's a proper class... We could alternatively create a platoon of three Class 59 Gun Tanks, available in 6/44-12/46, in case a player wanted to use such support. 131 Archer - received only around 12/44 (9/44), radio code should be 91 132 M10 17 pdr - radio should be 92 (now 91) - it was a basic equipment in ETO. There should be also basic M10 3in added - since 11/43 until 6/45, radio 90. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Further minor tweaks for units mentioned before:
27 Sherman V - photo is M4A1 Sherman II - could be 27730. 29 Sherman IB [CS tank] - radio could be 92, so that it's primary choice after its introduction in 2/45 (or 018 Sherman I and 201 Sherman V could as well end on 1/45) Quote:
Quote:
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Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Next:
058 17 Pdr AT-Gun - I believe, that the 2nd Corps had these guns from a beginning of Italian campaign (4/44) at least, but I have no info (now starts at 6/44) 163, 164 6pdr GMC T48 - weren't used by the Poles (on Western front at least - the LWP used SU-57) 165, 166 75mm SP Autocar [TD, SP-Art] - used only from 9/44 until the end (now: 1/42-12/43). Picture should be 27738 Earliest unit in 088 SP-AT Section and 089 SP-AT Troop should be proposed M10 3in, since 11/43. SP Flak: 177 40mm SPAA Truck - gun should be 40 mm Bofors, not Vickers. Could be named "40mm C9/B SPAA" - it wasn't just any truck. It's a detail, but received in 9/43 (6/43) (according to Lalak/Kamiński: "Artyleria samobiezna w Polskich Silach Zbrojnych 1940-1945" - SP Arty in Polish Armed Forces) 178 20mm Quad Truck - I don't know about such weapon used by the Polish. Had the Allies such Flakvierling at all? 184 Staghound AA - received by 3/44 (now 8/44) Formation 290 AC Sqn AA Troop - Available: 08/44-12/46 might need correction as well 185 Crusader AA Mk1 - aren't known to be used by the Polish. It could be replaced with Crusader AA III, with twin 20 mm guns - like unit 105 in the British oob, but with a coaxial 7.7mm Vickers K MG, without BMG, and used from 7/44. Withdrawn from most units in the 1st Arm.Div around 11/44 due to allied air superiority and need of crews (might be kept until the end here though) Formation 160 SP-AA Troop should start later accordingly. Also, about dozen Light Tank AA I were reportedly used for training in a course of 1943, but it's rather insignificant use. (Lalak/Kamiński: Artyleria samobiezna w Polskich Silach Zbrojnych 1940-1945) Formation 159 SP-AA Section (Available: 01/43-12/46) might need change according to what is earliest and not deleted. Template unit should be most typical 40mm C9/B There could also be added M16 SPAA vehicle - used in small quantity from around 3/45, probably until the end (radio 91). Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
186 Daimler Dingo [scout veh] - received in "early 1942" (1/43).
Specifications should be corrected like in the British OOB: crew 2(now 4), size 2(3), weight 10(0). Radio should be 90 or 92 - it was most common. Was its Bren, normally shooting through a slot in armour, really an AAMG? The vehicle doesn't seem to have any AA mounting, so it would have to be fired "from hand" (same for the British OOB). 187 Ironside Mk.III [scout veh] - should be named Humber LRC III. The armament was Bren AAMG (now: .30 AAMG) and it had smoke mortar. Crew was 3 (4). It has weight 0. It would be good to give it a new icon (also to the British ones - now it is like Humber Scout car). They were used by the Polish in a small quantity - according to Magnuski, only "towards the end of the war" (no precise info when), and rather they weren't used in combat. As scout vehicles, also Otters were used by one unit in Italy (#125 from Canadian OOB) - in 11/43 until the end (radio=91). cavalry tanks 202 Cromwell VII [cavalry tank] - according to Magnuski, Cromwells with 75mm guns were received probably around 6/44 (now 3/44), and they were first of all Cromwell IV model. The Cromwells were used from 1/44 for training - but they were probably 6pdr Cromwells I or III, that could be added (until 5/44) There were also used CS Cromwells VI with 95mm howitzers, that should be added (class eg. 104 CS cruiser tank). For sure they were received as replacements by 9/44 - it isn't clear, if there were none before that date. Formations 147, 148 Recce Tank Trp /Sqdn should be modified according to a first date of availability. In Recce Tank Sqdn there were only 4 troops (renamed to platoons) - their number was reduced due to low personnel. There should also be two CS tanks in a squadron - there could be made additional entry of Cromwell IV unit as CS tank, before advent of Cromwells VI (it shouldn't be much problem, if in 1-5/44 there will be ordinary 6pdr Cromwells and support 75mm ones) From 11/44 there should be used Challengers in Recce Tank Sqdn - they were used as a fourth platoon (in 1945 at least), so we'll need a new Squadron. Unit 546 Challenger [gun tank] should be reclassified as 123 Cruiser Gun tank, so that it is not mixed with Fireflies. misc 189 Cdo Support - better picture is 553, showing 2in mortar 193 Commando Sniper - it uses anachronistic 1939-era picture. Maybe it should be changed to standard British sniper 12113 (which in turn could be changed to SMLE with a scope - now it's probably newer rifle taken from SP2). Or maybe it could be 30570 (used for 175 Para Sniper) 210 Para Support, 725, 726 3in Mortar - picture 56 of a generic (Soviet) mortar should be replaced with 3in, eg. 601 or 21150 |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
misc. less important changes
231 Honey Ammo Tank - should be renamed to Stuart (name Honey applied to early versions rather, and was unknown by the Polish) 236 152mm A Nadbrze 237 105mm A Nadbrze - I suggest more understandable English name rather, like: "...mm Coast Art", "Coast Gun". A name: "A Nadbrze" isn't a valid abbreviation in Polish, just cut words (A[rtyleria? Armata?] Nadbrze[żna]). Eventually "A.Nadbrz.", with points. 238 Lesny Bunkier (forest bunker) - if we keep a Polish name, more natural is "Lesny bunkier". 13077 239 Budynek - might be translated to Building 240 Bunkier - dates 11/39-12/46 don't fit to Polish armament - probably it should be 1/30-10/39. Pistol doesn't seem necessary. 251 Polish HQ - 1940 HQ could not use wz.29 carbines and Vis pistols. The carbine could be replaced with 112 Lebel and pistol with 114. 264, 265, 266 Sniper - it uses 1939-era picture - see unit 193 Commando Sniper above. 278, 279 Partisans - to me, partisans armed with rare Mannlicher and Berthier rifles are redundant if we have otherwise identical standard unit 340. 282 Rifle Squad - its weapon #60 wz.38M rifle was self-loading rifle and therefore should have kill=2 (now 1), BUT such unit was extremely rare and should have radio=3(now 2). I've just found, that only Paras, Marines, Bicycle Squads and Mot Rifles use a weapon 86 defensive Granat wz.24 Ob, while all the other infantry uses offensive 87 Granat wz.24 Za. In fact, all the infantry used both defensive and offensive grenades, and with offensive grenades only they will be inferior to enemy (I've started a separate thread on grenades in general http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49960). Since defensive grenades are generally used by other countries, I think, that offensive Granat wz.24 Za is redundant and all cases of its usage should be changed to Granat wz.24 Ob (renamed to "Granat obronny"). And since 87 seems a standard slot for hand grenades, a new defensive grenade could be placed in this slot. A standard was two defensive and two offensive grenades for a soldier, so in units which has two slots with grenades, the second entry of grenades could be changed to lighter #80 Granaty (that could be renamed to "granat zaczepny" ie. offensive). This concerns units 284, 285, 289, 290, 293, 306. 330 105mm Gun Bty - correct picture of wz.29 gun is 23598 (in Finnish service). They were used at least from 1934 (now 1/35) 332 100mm Gun Bty - should be used from 1/30 (1/35) 333 81mm Mortars - mortar crews should rather have #173 wz.98 Carabine, than rifle 360 Ursus 'A' [truck] - used from 1/30(1/35). Name could be written just Ursus A 362 Jeep - earliest serial Jeeps were manufactured from late 1941 - I don't know when the Poles got them, but I guess some 1/42 (now: 7/40). Some Austin Tilly (#286 in the British oob) could be copied to fill a gap from 7/40 Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Another part of shallow digging through plethora of infantry units... Their structures and weapons should be examined deeply, but maybe next year.
287 Rifle Squad - picture 30211 without LMG will be more appropriate 310, 311 Obrona Naradowa - should be Narodowa. 313 Patrol - has a picture of marksman. 15000 could be, as used for #312 318 Rifle Section - picture 30553 seems better, than some soldiers with Sherman (used as mech patrol) 322, 323 Engineer Sec - soldiers on the photo looks rather like Germans to me. Maybe 30553 will do. 324, 327 Engineer Squad - photo 30211 looks better for a French period 325, 326 Engineer Squad - photo 30220 looks better for engineers (not charging on bayonets) Off-map Artillery Now 1939 artillery is organized this way: - Lt arty - 75 mm FG - Med how - 100 mm FH, 105 mm FG (wz.13), 105 mm FG (wz.29) - Hvy arty - 120 mm, 155 mm FH, 220 mm A problem is, that in fact 100 mm FH were used in Light Arty Regiments (along with 75 mm guns), while 105 mm FG were in heavy arty units (along with 155mm FH) If we want to be closer to original, 100 mm FH battery should be reclassified as Light Arty. There would be available a whole Lt Arty Bn with three 4-gun batteries of 75 mm or 100 mm, which is correct. A bigger problem is, that heavy divisional arty, using 105 mm FG/155 mm FH, had a different structure (3-gun batteries), than C-in-c Heavy Arty, using same guns (4-gun batteries), plus 120 mm guns and 220 mm mortars. There's a page on 105mm guns, indicating this problem http://derela.republika.pl/105mm_wz1..._schneider.htm There didn't exist battalions with three 3-gun 105mm batteries, like formation 358 in a present oob. Unfortunately, it seems impossible to create real mixed off-map divisional Heavy Arty Battalions with one battery of three 105mm guns (wz.13 or wz.29) and one battery of 155mm FH. That's why I suggest to use 3-gun 105mm and 155mm batteries as single batteries only, and not to include them in any Battalion. Unit #331 155mm How Bty should be reclassified to 10 Off-map arty, like 105mm batteries. If a player would like to create original divisional Heavy Arty Bn, he'd have to take one 3-gun 105mm Bty and one 3-gun 155mm Bty separately. There should be created new four-gun units, modified from #99 105mm Gun Bty, #330 105mm Gun Bty and #331 155mm How Bty. All these four-gun batteries should be classified as Heavy off-map arty. Of them, 155mm howitzers should be most common. Unit 416 120mm How Bty should be given a fourth gun to be true (you can read about them here: http://derela.republika.pl/120mm_wz78-09-31.htm). Then, if we add one more battery to a battalion 357, there will be available heavy arty battalions with three 4-gun batteries of 105mm, 120mm or 155mm, which is correct, or with three 2-gun 220mm batteries, also correct. Suggested changes to formations to reflect changes above: form. 358 Med Howitzer Bn - to be removed, as non-existing. A problem is, that it might be on a pick list in assault mode (sometimes there is Lt or Hvy Bn instead). form. 365 Med How Bty - rename eg. "Hvy Art Bty/3", "Hvy Art Bty(3)" - it will cover divisional heavy arty of 105mm guns and 155mm FH form. 357 Heavy Art Bn - add the third battery and change template unit (331) to Off-map Hvy Arty, eg. 416 form. 367 Hvy Art Battery - rename eg. "Hvy Art Bty/4" and change template unit 332 100mm Gun Bty - should be named 100mm How Bty or FH Bty, and used from 1/30 (now 1/35) 333 81mm Mortars - if there's a choice, a secondary weapon should be shorter 144 wz.29 Carbine Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Quote:
It was not popular, probably of limited effectiveness, and no doubt removed by many crew to make room in that tight cab. So I agree that the Dingo is not the best choice for an AA mount. There's plenty of other allied vehicles that I'd give AA mounts before the Dingo. Just an FYI ;) Cross |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
1 Attachment(s)
349 Partisan MG - I'm attaching a proposed picture of a Polish partisan with wz.28 LMG.
350 Partisan MG - I'm attaching a proposed picture of a Polish partisan with German MG (it would also better fit for unit 347, than a current one) 352 Part. Mortars - picture shows 82mm mortar. I'm attaching a picture for Polish 46mm GL. A word about formations: form. 342 Gwardia Ludowa, 343 GL Partisan Co - since 1/44 its name was Armia Ludowa (AL). Gwardia Ludowa existed since 5/42, so we should add earlier formations with this name. It seems from morale & experience modifier, that somebody liked communist GL and despised rightist NSZ (formation 344) ;) - well, I don't like nationalist and grossly anti-Semitic partisans either, but -10 penalty in morale & experience isn't justified, neither is +5 in case of GL, which were no better, than the rest. Since Poland has high base morale 75, IMO it's enough for partisans as well. The partisans had limited possibility of training, so as for experience (with base level 70), I would say, that GL and NSZ partisans should have -10, AK partisans (best organized, form. 340, 341) -5 (=average level 65, eg. of Yugoslavian partisans). 364 Carrier HMG was in fact not a scout vehicle, but an infantry support vehicle, used in separate platoons (4-6 HMG carriers). And they were introduced to the British (and Polish) army only in 1943/44 (now 7/40). I'm attaching a proposed improved picture of a vehicle in actual configuration - for all countries (a current one looks like some makeshift, with a shielded HMG) 368 Polski Fiat 508 [utility veh.] - picture is 2-seater Italian variant, I'm attaching a correct one. It could be AT wheel class - it was 4x2, but it had some off-road capabilities (like German Kubelwagen). Precisely, they were produced from 1935 (1/30). Earlier, a Ford T could be used. 369 Polski Fiat 618 [APC wheel] - used from 1937 only (now 1/30). Formations 263, 264 Lt Truck Sec, Plt (Available: 01/30-12/46) should be corrected then (I don't think we need such unit earlier, medium trucks should be enough) 370 Polski Fiat 621 [med truck] - picture is generic SP-1 Renault truck, I'm attaching a proper one. It was produced from 1932 only (1/30) (earlier there should be #360 Ursus A). 374 30cwt GS Truck [med truck] - 30cwt trucks were rather rare in wartime British and Polish armies, especially in combat units. Maybe 375 Bedford should be re-classified to med truck instead (commonly used in field), especially, that it is used only in two Heavy Truck formations. 375 Bedford - much closer for Bedford QL is icon 674 in SPMBT (same for British oob). If it represents Bedford QL, it should be AT/wheel. Maybe it should be made a Medium Truck - if so, a data of Bedford should be changed to correspond with a Medium Truck (we have already #383 heavy truck in this period). 376 3t Chevy 157 [heavy truck] - it might be called Chevrolet 157 (Chevy abbreviation wasn't known in Poland). It was used only from 1/39 (1/30). In fact it was medium truck, the same class, as Polski Fiat 621 - and it was faster (80 km/h - now speed 15). If we need Heavy Truck formations 267,268 before 1939, we could create Berliet CBA (up to 35 km/h) - I'm attaching a photo. 381 15cwt GS Truck - much more common, than pictured Chevrolet C15 CMP was Bedford MW (picture 30123) or Fordson WOT2 384 Humber Gun Quad - correct name is Morris Quad FAT naturally, if we want to name a manufacturer (could also be Ford or Chevrolet FGT/CGT). 387 Bunkier - photo 29710 looks much more like Polish bunker (which is in fact, because I did this picture myself long ago ;)) 400 37mm AT-Gun - introduced only in mid-1936 (now 1/30). If we need to feel a gap, #399 37mm wz.18 might be used as AT-gun in 1930-35 (though in fact, there were no AT-guns in Poland at that time at all). On the other hand, during a French period more modern guns were used (below). Name 37mm wz.18 should be supplemented with "gun", because it was not a standalone mark designation. 401 25mm AT-Gun - radio should be 2(1) - it was standard AT gun in France. 402 47mm AT-Gun - photo is a Japanese gun, and armament is 47mm Bohler. It should be a French gun (weapon #21 47mm SA37 (L53) from French oob), picture 203, radio=0. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Polish LWP basically "grow out" of the Gwardia Ludowa? If so, then I think the pre-1944 partisan forces are already in that OOB. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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(A distinction may be unclear, but there are other words for army as a military unit - "armia", like the 1st Polish Army, and an army as armed forces - "wojsko", although "armia" is colloquially used also in the second meaning). In my opinion, though, since GL/AL units operated in the country, there's no need to put them into a separate LWP OOB and treat as allies. The idea isn't bad, though. By the way: a flag representing LWP, with a hammer and sickle, is a bit offensive, since it was never a sign of Polish communists, who used just a national flag. However, I have no better idea. Maybe there could be used Piast's eagle, used by the LWP on caps and badges, but a distinction may be hardly seen: http://histmag.org/grafika/articles6...ly5/kurica.png On the other hand, ordinary Polish flag should have no eagle at all - a flag with eagle was used only as a merchant ensign and a flag of Polish official representatives abroad. By the way: it could be noted, that despite both groups of partisan movement were unfriendly, and regarded themselves as communist renegades vs fascists, fights between them were sporadic. Regards Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Exactly, and nobody had a better idea when we first put it in either. Don |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
However, it's worth IMO to remove eagle from the ordinary flag.
Back to suggestions: Quote:
335 CKM wz.30 Pl - radio should be 22 - it was a standard weapon (or 32, since HMGs 406, 407, 408 have radio=30). 403 120mm How - should be 120mm Gun or Canon (eventually "armata" in Polish - in lower case). Better icon is 2116 - it was rather long-barrel piece (on a photo the barrel is in a transport position). Radio should be 92(91) - it was a rare gun. 407 CKM wz.10 Pl - should be wz.10/28. They were withdrawn by the end of 1936 (sold probably to Spain). 408 CKM wz.25 Pl - it should be original 8mm wz.14 Hotchkiss rather (there were still 2600 wz.14 in 1939 and only 1200 of wz.25, half of them as TMGs). Weapon #121 should have kill=5 like weapon #100 and should be named 8mm wz.25 HMG (or MMG - though in Poland all were classified as "heavy"). BTW, kill 7 of wz.28 MMG is not justified. A word on HMG/MMG: Most HMG/MMGs in the game have HE kill=5 (Vickers, Soviet Maxim, M1917, Mle.14), and I assume, that MG34 (8) and MG42 (10) are better due to higher ROF (some 800 rpm in case of MG34). But German OOB #122 MG08/18 HMG, which has 6, should have HEK similar to other water-cooled MGs, or even lower, since its ROF is quoted at 300-450 rpm (Wikipedia says 450-500, German Wikipedia 400-450, which is also relatively low). For Vickers also 450-500 rpm is quoted, but for M1917: 450-600. Also for Polish wz.30 (a Browing clone) 600 rpm is given and it has HEK=6. For Russian Maxim 520-600 is given. [I mostly use WarMachine 97 Machine guns of WWI as a reference] So, if 500 rpm = roughly 5 HEK, I think, that MG08 should have HEK=5, and there is a basis to increase HEK of Browning M1917 and wz.30 and possibly Russian Maxim to 6. On the other hand German MG08 could have increased accuracy due to its ultra-heavy sledge mount. Returning back to the Polish: weapon 123 7.92 wz.08 MMG should have HEK=5 (now 8), and it is HMG in fact. weapon 124 7.92wz.10/28HMG - kill 9 is not justified at all - it should be 6 (Russian Maxim converted to 7.92mm) Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
1939 guns took me several days:
398 37mm wz.18 [inf gun] - name should be wz.16 and a secondary weapon should be French 112 Lebel 409 65mm Mtn Gun - ending date should be 10/39 (10/49, an evident typo). Radio should be 91(92) - very rare, used only by mountain units. -------- 75 mm artillery: Only two types of 75mm pieces were used by the Polish by 1939, and both were field guns: wz.1897 (French) used by artillery regiments and wz.02/26 used by cavalry and in infantry regiments. None were specifically assigned to AT role. You can read more at http://derela.republika.pl/artillery.htm 410 75mm Inf-Gun - as infantry gun, an ordinary 75mm wz.02/26 field gun was used, so a weapon (7.5cm leIG) should be replaced with #64 75mm vz.02 FG (differing in longer range). If it's important: ammo load in limber and caisson in infantry units were 80 shells (plus 36 shells in caisson's limber). Icon should be changed to 2111 (as unit 412 - longer barrel) Speed 1 is correct - it could be pulled by the crew. Weapon 064 75mm vz.02 FG - correct name is wz02/26 FG It could receive Sabot round with pen=7, range=60, like weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG (75mm gun in AT role). Then, the gun can receive few Sabot rounds, although not necessarily. Form. 338 Infantry Guns could be renamed to Infantry Gun Pl Precisely, they should be given 6-horse limbers instead of wagons, but then the player could also choose inappropriate artillery tractors. Maybe a limber could be doubled as a kind of wagon? I'm attaching some proposed pictures of wz.02/26, for 32135 is hard to recognize. It could replace ugly 21172 - also for unit #412 below. 390 Fort - 7.5cm leIG should not be used in Poland at all. Polish gun-armed fortifications were very rare, but probably first of all, original Russian 76mm wz.02 field guns were used there (without special mountings). Weapon #32 7.5cm leIG could be therefore converted to 76mm wz.02 FG, with the same specs as #64 75mm vz.02 FG (wz02/26) Otherwise, main armament of the fort should be just replaced with 064 75mm vz.02 FG (wz02/26). 411 100mm How - was used since 1/30 (now 1/35). Maybe we could use a full name Howitzer? (or Polish "haubica", in lower case). Icon 2115 with a shorter barrel would be more appropriate IMO (2116 rather fits for #403 120mm gun) 412 75mm Howitzer - should be 75mm Field Gun or Canon (or Polish "armata") or 75mm wz02/26 FG. In a limber and caisson, 96 shells were carried (plus 32 in a caisson's limber). 413 75mm Howitzer - same as above as for a name, but 75mm wz.1897 FG. It should be used since 1930, being Polish most common field gun (now: only from 11/39). Secondary weapon should be changed to Polish carbine 144 (even if it wasn't used in France - or we can create two units with different rifles to be precise). In a limber and caisson, 96 shells were carried (plus 24 in a caisson's limber). Icon should be 2112, as French OOB unit 28 (it had quite long barrel). Better picture is 28018 or 23083 with wooden wheels - current one is French motorized version (same for unit #329 75mm FG Bty) Weapon 033 75mm vz.97 FG - correct name is wz.1897. Sabot range should be increased from 20 to 60, like weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG (75mm gun in AT role, shooting full AP shots). 414 75mm Field Gun [AT gun] - firstly, in Poland there were no 75mm field guns specifically assigned to AT role, they had no special sights (apart from a handful of guns) and there was little AP ammo available for them (20 per battery). The same role could be fulfilled by 75mm Inf Gun or Howitzer above, with Sabot ammo, which would offer longer HE range (they would have to have less AP ammo - but it would expend its 8 AP rounds for first few targets anyway). In fact, 75 mm guns could destroy most tanks with HE in 1939. If we decide to keep it as AT gun, it could be used since 1/30 (now: 1/35), and fill a gap before advent of 37mm ATG. But then, wz.02/26 gun should be eventually replaced by much more numerous wz1897 FG (as above) - a name of weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG can be just changed without harm to other units using it (the river craft used wz.97 guns as well in fact). In all 1939 guns, rifle should be replaced with shorter #144 carbine - it applies to units 399, 400, 403, 410, 411, 412, 414, 415, also to 405 wz.35 AT-Rifle By the way: there was no weapon, like #221 wz.29 rifle at all. It should be eventually renamed to wz.98a Rifle (a modernized version of wz.98 Rifle), or changed in all units to #178 wz.98 Rifle. 391 Strongpoint - its weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG could be also exchanged to newly added 76mm wz.02 FG or 064 75mm wz.02/26 (like #390 Fort above). Such amount of AP rounds is wrong - it could be a handful at best. 416 120mm How Bty - it should receive fourth gun, and a proper name is 120mm Gun Bty. Radio should be 91 (now 92) - it was very rare. 418 wz.25 AAMG [2] - it should be wz.14 (see remarks for 408 CKM wz.25 Pl). Hotchkiss AAMGS were mainly used in stationary AA defence (along with wz.08 Maxims), but in infantry units a standard was wz.30 HMG on convertible AA mount, which should be added as new weapon (it should be also an armament of #548 Taczanka). 420 13.2mm AAMG - there were few used, by the Navy, on stationery naval mounts, in coastal defence. To be removed IMO. 423 194mm Gun Bty - it must be French allied support, but more probable would be a support of ordinary 155mm GPF guns (unit 220 in French oob, with changed class). |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Promised 75mm wz.02/26 pictures.
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Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Again, it's not exclusively communist (save the crownless eagle), but it was historically used by them on some occasions. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
400 37mm AT-Gun - I've just acquired a new source, which states, that it was actually deployed to units from 1/37.
A limber had 80 rounds: 16 HE and 64 AP. tankettes: 425 TK-3 - this tankette is begging for a new picture, instead of SP-1 vintage caricature :) I'll attach some in next posts. In the future, it is worth to create a camouflaged icon replacing a green one (like 2787 - TKS and 2791 - TKS 20mm) - they were all camouflaged. The first batch was delivered in 4/32 (now 9/31) (not counting pre-series of ordinary steel) [Magnuski] 426 TKS - picture as above (besides, it shows something more similar to TK-3) Armament should be 229 wz.25 MG, like TK-3. BTW: I don't want to overturn all rules, but why BMG has a range of only 10, if it was an ordinary MMG, and its coaxial version has a range of 24?... The tankettes are therefore handicapped in the game (apart from the British Carden-Loyd, which uses CMG) TK-3 should have FC 0 and RF 0 (like other nations' tankettes), while TKS should have FC=1 (scope sight). There should be added also Carden-Loyd VI tankette, like British 856, but probably armed with 222 wz.30 CMG [Magnuski], used in 1/30 to some 33. Formations: 403 Recce Tank Trp (could be renamed Plt, to be more consistent with Polish nomenclature) - earliest unit should be Carden-Loyd from 1/30 It should be available until 10/39 - only few troops received gun-armed TKS 404 Recce Tank Sqdn - last date as above. First date should be somewhat later - around 1/33 will be better (now 1/35) (they didn't exist during a peacetime, and were to be organized during mobilization) 405 Recce Tank Trp - there should be 2 tankettes with a gun. I suggest to rename it "Recce Tank Plt+" or something like that. 406 Recce Tank Sqdn - a commander had ordinary MG-armed tankette (there were only plans to give him gun-armed one). I suggest to rename it "Recce Tank Sqd+" or something like that. 408 Armoured Bn HQ - it should be used until 10/39 (as formation 403) A name should be just "Armoured Bn", or, preferably "Armoured Bat." or "Batt." to make it more consistent with Polish abbreviation (bat.). They were recce units of Cavalry Brigades, not HQ. According to this page: http://wp39.struktury.net/dywizjon-p...dywizjonu.html there might be added a car carrying an AAMG, if you think it's a good idea. 409 Armoured Bn HQ - as above, apart from date. A tankette should be MG-armed. Name could be changed to "Armoured Bat.+" etc. 427 TKS.m - such designation was not used. I suggest "TKS nkm" or "TKS /nkm" (nkm = Heaviest MG). 428 C7P tractor - it had no radio post-1940 armoured cars 429 Mrmn-Hrngtn IV - a picture shows Humber. They were however used only from 5/45 until 10/45 for training (now 1/43-3/44) [Magnuski]. Radio should be x1. 430 Mrmn-Hrngtn II - used from 5/42 until about 10/43 (now 3/41-3/42). It would be good to fit it with Mk.II picture - now it has Mk.III (I've proposed one in the British oob). Maybe a more natural name would be Marmon-Herr, or M-H ? They were the first armoured cars used by the Polish after 1939 - it would need changes in formation 287. 431 Humber Mk.III - used only for training in 6/42-10/43. Radio should be x1. Picture is Mk.IV (I've proposed a picture in the British oob) 432 Humber Mk.I - not used by the Polish. Could be replaced with Fox Mk.I (Canadian-built) - used from some 10/43 until some 12/45, also in combat. The same specifications, but armed with 0.50 Browning and 0.30 Browning, radio=71, crew=4. 433 Scout Mk.II - it should be Humber Scout II. Used from around 6/44 only (now 8/40). 434 Scout Mk.I - as above, used from around 12/43 (now 7/40 - a production started in 1943). In 380-381 unit in the British oob I wrote, that there's no information, that I and II differed in armour - only mechanical changes are mentioned. But I've found no precise info on their armour (they say "max 14 mm" for all variants). 435 Ironside Mk.II [scout veh] - used by the Polish in a small quantity - according to Magnuski, only "towards the end of the war" (no precise info when), and rather they weren't used in combat. It isn't clear, if Mk.II was used at all. Otherwise, comments as for the British oob (icon, picture etc). 436 Ironside Mk.I [scout veh] - rather certainly didn't used by the Polish. Otherwise, comments as for the British oob. 437 Mrmn-Hrngtn III - used from 5/43 until some 10/43 for training From armoured cars, there could be eventually added: - Beaverette IV used from some 1/41 until some 1943 for training only (#373 in the British oob) [class scout veh?],. - Morris LRC - suggested to be added to the British oob, used from 11/42 Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
CS tanks
439 Crusader II-CS - Crusaders CS were received only around 2/43 (now 1/42). 440 Crusader I-CS - not used. Since Poland never used unit 011 Matilda II-CS, we'll need a Valentine VIII classified as CS Tank, available in 2/43-9/43, to fill a gap in formation 377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn (in this period there were used Crusaders CS in units formed in UK, and no CS tanks in units formed in ME, using Valentines) Therefore, formation 377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn should start at 2/43 (now 9/42), while earlier formation 378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn should be extended to 1/43. 445 C4P Art Tractor - max speed was 35 km/h (12 - now 16). Crew should be 2 (4) 446 Boys Carrier - used from early 1941 (7/40). It should be earliest unit of Scout Vehicle class - needs change in formation 288 Rec Reg Sct Tp (now available: 07/40-05/43). Carry should be 104 (now 102) ------------------------------------------------- Vickers Mk.E tanks Information on Vickers tanks is based upon a detailed research article by Rafał Białkowski (of course, apart from a page http://derela.republika.pl/vickers.htm) Correct name for all is Vickers Mk.E type A/B, not Mk.A/B. It could be just Vickers E typ A/B ("typ" is type in Polish). Short chronology: - 6/32 - only 38 twin-turret tanks armed with wz.25 MGs - mid-33 (say, 8/33) - 16 rearmed with 13.2mm MGs, 6 rearmed with short 37 mm - mid-34 (say, 8/34) - started conversion of 22 tanks to single-turret - all tanks with wz.25 MGs and 37mm guns wiped out by the end of year - 11/36 (or earlier) - twin-turret tanks with 13.2mm being converted to wz.30 MGs, 13.2mm disappear by the end of 1937 (or earlier) 449 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with wz.25 MGs - earliest) - they were delivered from 6/32 (now 1/30), used until end of 1934 (now 7/34). Better photo of earliest twin-turret tank is 30225. In my opinion it should have a camouflaged icon 3472, like newer tanks, despite this icon has modified air intakes (they were camouflaged from a beginning, never green). 450 Vickers E Mk.B (Vickers E typ B) - first single turret tanks were converted in mid-34, because first turrets were delivered in 3/34 (now starts at 1/34). This unit, available at best for two months (6-7/34), seems redundant, since we have unit 644 following it from 8/34, that can be as well available from 6/34. This unit is probably only meant to represent earliest model without air intakes. If it is removed, a template unit in formations should be changed to 644. 639 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with 13.2 TMG) - used from mid-33 - might be 8/33 (now 8/34). 640 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with 37mm gun) - used from mid-33 - might be 8/33 until end of 1934 only (now 8/34-10/37). A photo 29426 is in fact late variant with twin wz.30 MGs (and air intakes). I'll attach a correct Vickers with 37 mm. It is better reclassified to Cavalry Tank, so that they can play a role of an interim gun tank (before advent of Type B). 641 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with wz.25 MGs, with modified air intakes) - in fact, wz.25 MG armed tanks were used only until the end of 1934 (then, for several years, only 13.2mm and single turret ones). Therefore, IMO this unit is redundant, for unit 449 can be well used a few months longer. The only difference is supposed to be modified air intakes, but there was no strict date of their adoption. 642 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with final wz.30 MGs) - used at least from 11/36 (11/37) Photo 30225 is earliest tank, without air intakes - correct is 29426. I'll attach a better copy. 644 Vickers E Mk.B - can be available from some 6/34 (now 8/34) - see unit 450 above. The tank is supposed to be in early camo, but the photo is late camo. I'll attach a better one. 645 Vickers E Mk.B - much better photo for a late tank is 27618 646 Vickers E Mk.B - much better photo for a late tank is 27618. Radio=82 is too optimistic. It isn't clear what radio equipment these tanks got in 1939, but 52 would be closer to truth. Edit: I'll deal with formations tomorrow Regards Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
1 Attachment(s)
Vickers E formations:
373 Vickers Tk Sec - Available: 09/30-10/39 - should be from 6/32 (as unit 449). However, a section of two tanks, especially twin-turret ones, is in fact unnecessary, when we have platoons. A section of two single-turret tanks from 6/34 would be more useful, although it's also unnecessary. 384 Vickers Tk Pl - Available: 09/30-12/33 - should be from 6/32 until 7/33 (Type A tanks only) Now it uses 99-nation tank as a template (could be 449). 385 Vickers Tk Co - Available: 09/30-12/33 - as above It would be most real-like to create interim formations with 37mm-armed tanks, considering, that there were only 6 - IF unit 640 Vickers E Mk.A is reclassified to Cavalry Tank: Vickers Tk Pl - from 8/33 until 5/34, with two Cavalry tanks (eg.644) and three Light cavalry tanks (eg.449) Vickers Tk Co - from 8/33 until 5/34, with 449 Light cavalry tank and three platoons as above Otherwise, formations below could start at 8/33, but then a company will have more 37mm-gun armed tanks, than it was available. 386 Vickers Tk Pl - Available: 01/34-09/39 - should be available from 6/34 until 10/39. Proportion of A and B tanks is correct, but a commander's tank should be Type B (more natural would be to place three Type B tanks first at all). As I wrote, unit 450 is IMO redundant, and could be replaced in a template with eg. 644. 387 Vickers Tk Co - Available: 01/34-09/39 - as above. A commander's tank should also be Type B. -------- I'm attaching proposed or better pictures for Vickers, TK-3, TKS and Polish 40mm Bofors. Two are proposed for units 640 and 644. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
451 7TP wczesny (name, meaning "early", should be changed just to 7TP)
459 7TP - as was stated in other place, both should have no sabot. Despite common info, according to a research by K. Rudy the tanks with guns were completed and ready only after 6/38 (7/38 should be OK). Early and late tanks could differ in radio chance only: first one could end in some 6/39 and have some 30 radio chance, second one could start in some 7/39 and have around 50 radio chance (it seems, that only platoons' commanders received radios anyway). Formations: 383 Medium Tank Sec, 388 Medium Tank Pl, 389 Medium Tank Co should be modified accordingly - and they all should be renamed to Light Tank (it was an official classification). For a sake of consistency, it's worth to re-classify units 451, 459 as Light Tanks as well (there are no others at that time - they are Med Tanks now). 452 R-35 - better name is Renault R-35. However, formations: 214 Renault Tank, 215 Renault Platoon, 216 Renault Company should be renamed to R-35 Tank etc, so that they are not confused with basic Renaults in the Polish service, ie. FT. 455 7TP 467 7TP wczesny - although it wasn't their designation, but twin turret tanks could be named "7TP dw." for a sake of convenience (=dwuwieżowy - twin-turret). Both tanks differ only in icon, and so shall it be. They should be reclassified eg. to 15 Close Support Tank, so that they are not in mixed formations with FT-18 (formation 380). There should be new formations of 7TP dw (names are proposals): Lt Tank Pl (MG) - 7/36 - 9/39 - 5 tanks Lt Tank Co (MG) - 7/36 - 6/38 - 1 tank + 3 platoons (later most were converted to single-turret) 460 7TP Spychacz (dozer) - it was designed in 1939 only [Magnuski] (now 1/38) and almost certainly remained only a prototype. There are not even known photos. If we keep it, formation 028 should start later (and might be renamed Prototype Plough or so). 461 Panhard 178 - not used by the Polish. According to a common knowledge, the Polish didn't use any armoured cars in combat in France, however a recent article claims, that at least 3 Laffly 50 were given to the 10th Motorized Brigade in 5/40 and used for training in a recce company. Therefore, it could be replaced with Laffly 50 (unit 391 in a French oob - although a picture 15015 is in fact Laffly 80) A formation 354 Armd Car Pl should be modified accordingly (with 3 cars, from 5/40). . |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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That said, the assumption that the main weapon position of tankettes is similar to the BMG position in larger tanks is just faulty logic and not a reasonable generalization. I am have little knowledge about details of the Polish tankettes, but at least in the original Carden-Loyd and the Italian CV series tankettes both the machine gun elevation and vision from the commander-gunners position was fairly good, especially if unbuttoned. Vision from a buttoned-up vehicle was of course not as good, but still better than most BMG position I have seen. So, I don't think the tankette main MGs should be called BMGs at all or considered analogous the them. They should have the same range as regular CMGs and TMGs. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
I agree - all tankettes should be given TMGs.
In the Polish TK-3, an MG had ordinary open sights, in case of TKS it was mounted in a ball mounting, with a scope, and 20 deg of elevation. So they can't be worse, than infantry's HMGs. (BTW: it will be another story, but Italian early tankettes should have single 6.5mm MG, not a twin). Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
456 FT-17 - a proper picture for MG-armed FT is eg. 27560.
It seems, that official name was just Renault FT (sometimes called in documents "Renault M 17 FT"). 457 FT-18 - name FT-18 was never used in Poland. I suggest a name "Renault FT 37mm". There is a problem with formation 381 Inf Tank Co, because it should have no commander's tank. Maybe it should be replaced with utility car? Or we'd have to live with a a small inconsistency. 462 PZL P-37A Los - correct designation of bombers is PZL-37A Los or PZL.37A Los, without "P" It concerns also units 581-584 Unit 462 PZL-37A should be slower - 4 (now 5) (less than 400 km/h) Unit 582 PZl-37B, with 100-kg bombs, could have radio 92, as most typical. 464 PZL P-23A Karas - the same, correct designation is just PZL-23 or PZL.23, without "P". Same for 613-615. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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The only Italian tank to use twin 6.5mm coaxial machine guns was the FIAT 3000. The current OOB has such armament on some armored cars as well, but in reality the MGs in those turrets (which were quite big) were on separate flexible mounts and even had separate gunners. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Which we cannot model so we use a 2x MG Don |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
465 PZL P-11c - it was deployed to units from 11/35 only (now 11/34), so it seems redundant, because it ends at 12/35, and next unit 596 may as well start at 11/35 (now 1/36) [a book on Polish aircraft by A. Morgała]
Otherwise, it could be renamed P-11a and made available from "summer of 1935", until 9/39, with radio=91 and 188 Vickers MGs. But there's no such need IMO. All P.11 seem too fast - max 375 km/h, so maybe it should be 4 (now 5) 597 PZL P-11c - variant with 4 MGs started to appear in late 37 (say 11/37) (now 1/36) [A.Morgała] 598, 599 PZL P-11c - P.11 could carry ONLY up to four 12.5kg bombs, so these two units should be replaced with one with #193 bombs (unless we want to create the other one with 2 bombs, or 2 MGs instead of 4). As far, as it is known, no camouflage was used, so icon 2945 is improper (there were only experiments) 466 9TP - no sabot ammo. 470 FR AMR-35, 471 FR D-2, 472 FR B-1, 473 FR AMR-35ZT 474 FR Somua S-35 - French tanks, to be removed. 476 Renault UE - it should have top armour. 477 H-35 - as I have written, there were a couple used in 1940 for training only, so it can be left out. However, three H-35s (or H-38s - sources differ), acquired in early 1939, were used in combat in 9/39, so it can be changed to represent these units. I suggest full name Hotchkiss H-35. May be class 102 Cruiser tank. It should be available in three-tank platoon in 9/39 only. 478 Humber Mk II - used only for training in 6/42-10/43, just like unit #431 Humber Mk.III. Radio should be x1. It had also Besa CMG. 479 Rolls Royce A/C - precisely Rolls-Royce. A couple were used for training in 6/42- ?/43 (now 7/40-7/41) - they could have seen action, if Rommel had broken through at el-Alamein. Armament should be 148 Bren AAMG and fixed Boys, it also had smoke mortar. . |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
483 Spitfire Mk.XIV - I treat aircraft as a general allied support, nevertheless it's worth IMO to replace Mk.XVI with Mk.IXe, which was commonly used by the Polish - and since 4/44 with bombs.
it should be armed with two cannons, 2 x #164 .50 MG, 1 x 500 lb bomb, 2 x 250 lb bombs. Icon should be 4618 with clipped wings. Better picture is 30025 - which shows similar LF Mk.Vb, from a Polish 316th Sqdn. Besides, it's worth to add Mustang Mk.III, also used by the Polish, and since 4/44 for bombing. It should have specifications and icon like British OOB 186 Mustang Mk.1, but 4 x .50 MGs (BTW: British Mustang Mk.I should have 4 x .50 MGs instead of 6, and 4 x .30 MGs, and speed=7, not 8 - its max speed was around 628 km/h, only Mk.III and IV had a speed over 700 km/h. US OOB Mustangs P-51B and D have speed=7, while they could have 8). 486 Panhard 178 [scout veh.] - as 461 above - not used. Formation 455 Panhard Troop - to be removed 491 Honey Recce - in Polish units known as Stuart Recce. Used from late 1943 or early 1944 (say 1/44 - now 9/42) Better photo is 27739 (and of correct version) According to Magnuski, without a turret, a max speed exceeded 70 km/h. Same for 231 Honey Ammo Tank - name Honey wasn't known. Formation 149 Recce Tank - Available: 09/42-12/46 needs correction as well 494 Lloyd Carrier - correct form is Loyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyd_Carrier It wasn't armed (and as a rule, had no armour - there were kits of front and side plates only) 495 Citroen-K P17 - should be used from mid-31, also in Poland (now: from 11/39) 505, 507 Rifle Squad - picture 30211 without LMG will be more appropriate . |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
We're over a half - a bigger half in addition ;)
Riverine craft (monitors): 510 Krakow - short-range guns #55 75mm vz.02 DFG should be replaced with #33 75mm vz.97 FG - monitors could provide indirect artillery support. 511 Krakow - weapon #139 .30 cal AAMG should be replaced with #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG (as unit 510). However, weapon #204 is better to be renamed wz.08 (2) AAMG - it is unlikely, that monitors used newest infantry MGs, most probably they were Maxims. Traditional sources say, that it received 13.2mm (2) AAMG in 1939, but it is not clear, if these plans were really realized. There could be created another unit with 13.2mm AAMG from 1/39 in this case. It's worth to create a twin monitor Wilno, also in two (or three) variants. 512 Warszawa - initial armament were #67 105mm wz.13 guns, not 4.7in Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be renamed 2x7.92 wz.08 MG - there were no wz.14 Hotchkiss used on Polish ships. 513 Warszawa - it sure wasn't armed with quad 13.2 AAMG (there was no such weapon and it could be removed from OOB). It should be #204 AAMG, as units 511, 512. Short-range guns #55 75mm vz.02 DFG should be replaced with #33 75mm vz.97 FG 514 Warszawa - same as above. Icon of 512-514 Warszawa should be changed to 706 (like monitors below of the same type, different from Krakow). Is there a chance to create real icons of Krakow and Warszawa-class monitors? Now they have Hungarian icons, quite different from their real look. I could provide plans. 516 Torun - same as 513. Photo should be 30300 - now it's Hungarian Sopron. 517 Torun - same as 513 as for 75mm guns, but a photo of late Torun should be 30296. 519, 520 Pinsk - same as 513. 521 Horodyszcze - same as 512 Warszawa (#67 105mm wz.13 guns, not 4.7in) 522, 523 Horodyszcze - same as 513 All monitors from 510-523 had real speed no more, than 14 km/h (now 7 - should be 5, or 6, if we consider Renault FT tank as a lower limit) It is unknown, why monitors of the same class 512-523 differ in Heat armour. In fact, their armour was up to 8 mm, so maybe all should have basic armour 2, as unit 510 Kraków (there were strict weight limits, since they operated on shallow rivers). Other riverine craft: 524 Chodkiewicz - same as 513 as for 75mm guns. It would be best to create an icon of a sidewheel steamer for 524-528 and 531-537... 525 Chodkiewicz - weapon #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with two twin #226 13.2mm AAMG (2) Weapons #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with two #204 AAMG - it was AA ship. 527 Sikorski - weapon #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with one #226 13.2mm AAMG (2) Weapons #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with two #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG Full name should be Gen. Sikorski 528 Sikorski - weapons #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with 2 x #226 13.2mm AAMG (2) Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with 1 x #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG Speed of all the craft above (524-528) was also no more, than 14 km/h (now 7). Size should be at least 6 - they were river ships, more conspicuous, than monitors. 529 Lekki Okret - it should be renamed LKU (Lekki Kuter Uzbrojony - Light Armed Boat; name Lekki Okret - Light Ship is wrong and wasn't used for anything It should be available from around 1/31 (1/36) It's definitely too fast (9) - max speed was 11 km/h (4-6) Crew was 6 (10) (http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-41.html) 530 Lekki Okret - there was no such vessel with such armament. It's worth to change it to KU-30 river motor gun boat, used from 6/39 (and in hot actions), armed with one #226 13.2mm (2) AAMG, armour: 2 all around, speed=14, crew=8, suggested icon: 434 (http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-22.html) 533 Dickman - full name was Admiral Dickman. Same as 513 as for 75mm guns. 534 Dickman - full name as above. weapons #140 .50 AAMG should be replaced with 2 x #226 13.2mm AAMG (2) Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG It was used only until 1937 (now 10/39) - then it was turned into a target ship. 535 Szeptycki - full name was Gen. Szeptycki Same as 513 as for 75mm guns. Last date is earlier, than the first one - and it should be 10/39 536 Sobieski - same as 513 as for 75mm guns. It should be available until 12/31 only, for those, who want to play 1920 war (in fact it was withdrawn in 1920s) Better photo is 30297 (or 30302) 537 Stefan Batory - It should be available until 12/31 only, for those, who want to play 1920 war (in fact it was withdrawn in 1926) Guns are better changed to 76mm wz.02 FG, which I proposed to create when writing about artillery. It apparently wasn't armoured (maybe it should have 1 or 2 armour - now it has 4) Better photo is 30297 (or 30302) - now it's monitor Size should be bigger (the same for unit 531 Pancerny) 538 Kanonierka - I suggest name Kanonierka Z (kanonierka=gunboat, they were known as Z-class) AAMG should be changed to #219 7.92 wz.25 AAMG (or whatever AAMG replacing it), instead of non-Polish .30 caliber. Speed was actually 10 km/h (now 9 - much too big) Crew should be 17 (10) Better icon is 712, with two turrets. (http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-32.html) There should be added one fine river craft, which saw action in 1939: heavy armoured cutter CKU Nieuchwytny ("Uncatchable"). It could be based upon unit 538, with armament: #025 40mm Bofors AAG, 37mm wz.18 and AAMG. Available from 4/34 until 9/39 Appropriate icon is 679 Speed=7, crew=16 (http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-21.html) |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
540 Wibault 7 - full name, according to Morgała, is Wibault 70C1
541 Lublin XIX [AOP aircraft] - to be removed - it was only a prototype, while we have a series of real Lublin XIIIs (besides, a picture and icon show Fokker C.V). 547 37mm Portee - such vehicles were used by the Polish only starting from combat at Tobruk, in 8/41 to around 12/42 (now: 1/37 - 10/39). Better photo for 37mm is 27588 (current one shows 2pdr). Maybe it should be given some SMG, eg 237 Sten for self-defence? Needs change in formation #152, as its only unit - or maybe it should be reclassified as class 19 TD, made available until 10/43, and then it would be the first vehicle in formations: 088 SP-AT Section, 089 SP-AT Troop (earlier I proposed M10 3in as the earliest unit, since 11/43). 548 Taczanka [SP Flak] - .30 AAMG should be changed to proposed wz.30 AAMG. I'll attach a picture of typical Polish taczanka (a current one is not Polish) 550 Maxim HMG Pl - all 7.62mm Maxims were withdrawn by the end of 1920s. Unless someone wants to play 1920 war, then it might be kept until 12/30. There could be added .30 Browning 1919 MMG, used in Italy from some 11/43 until the end (radio=x1). 552 7TP [prototype tank] - it is a fiction category, but to be precise, a prototype with 37mm gun was completed in early 1937 (now 10/36) 553 Wz.31 [prototype tank] - icon looks nice, but there wasn't even built a prototype (and specifications were not much improvement over wz.29 armoured car). I'd remove it. 554 PZInz 130 - photo is Vickers Amphibian tank - I'll attach a better one - or something might be picked from http://derela.republika.pl/en/pzinz130.htm Depending on sources, it could swim 7-10 km/h, so water speed 2 could be increased. However, armour was only up to 8 mm (now 2). 555 PZInz 130 - speed and armour as above 556 10TP - no sabot. . |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
A bit more on artillery, mostly used by the Poles in North Africa:
401 25mm AT-Gun - should be available until 8/40 at least (the Polish Carpathian Bde took its guns from Syria to Palestine, and then lent them to the British). Reportedly they were used until 1942 for training in the UK, but it's not worth adding I guess. There should be added: - 37mm AT-Gun available from some 1/41 until at least 5/42 - they were used in action at Tobruk (radio 92). It could be copied from unit 400, but with #242 .303 rifle and maybe #88 Mills. - 47mm AT-Gun - captured Italian Breda, available from 8/41 until some 5/42 (unit #578 in the British oob, along with its weapon). - 20mm AA-Gun - captured Italian Breda, available from 8/41 until 5/42 (unit #748 in the British oob, along with its weapon). - some Italian field guns used at Tobruk, presumably 75/32 FG (unit #029 from Italy, along with its weapon, with range corrected to 203 - 12.5 km) - used in 8/41 - 12/41 at least - 65mm Mtn Gun used in 5/40 - ? (presumably 12/40) It could be copied from unit 409, but with #176 Berthier rifle. I've written before, that unit 409 should be available until 10/39 only (it has a Polish rifle BTW). Formation 338 Infantry Guns should end at 10/39, and there should be another one in accordance with new unit, named Mountain guns. - 18 Pdr Howitzer used around 8/40 - 5/41 (unit #127 from the British OOB, along with its weapon; radio 91) There also could be added 75mm Mk.I FG (#627 in the British OOB), used for training in the UK, but not necessarily. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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Could have also been ex-Austro-Hungarian 77/28 M.05 field guns (8cm Feldkanone M.5), which equipped the Italian colonial artillery units in North Africa. No, it isn't in the Italian OOB either. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
558 14TP - it is a very "what if" unit (see http://derela.republika.pl/en/10tp.htm ). It was supposed to be equipped with 47mm gun, but only on later stage, and there was no such gun available in 1939. If it would have been built, it would have #15 37 mm - unless we want to create a future tank.
On the other hand, hull armour was to be strengthened - according to (speculative) publications, even to 50 mm in front. 559 H-39 / SA18 [prototype tank] - I've already mentioned at unit 477 H-35, that three H-35s (or H-38s) were used in combat in 9/39, and their training use in 1940 is negligible, so there should be only one unit left of these two. It should not be Prototype tank class, so that they are used in a whole platoon (I suggested class 102 Cruiser tank). Its armament should be #142 or #143 gun, not #12 with old AP round. Icons of unit 559 are long-barrel, so more appropriate is unit 477 (icon 171). 560 75mm wz.97/25 [fortification] - if it is fortification, it should be 75mm wz.1922/24, used in coastal defence, since 1/30 (now 1/35). It was a French naval AA gun, with L/50 length, corresponding with a weapon #133 75mm L50 m.25 (wz.1897/25 was an obsolete mle.1897 AA variant, with shorter barrel) There could be added Polish modern 75mm wz.1936 AA gun, as a Heavy AT gun, with similar performance (L/50), used since 1/38 (formations could have own C4P tractors). Picture as for now could be 36926. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
1 Attachment(s)
Hello
When you talking about modification of Polish OOB I just tough about my file with I done around 2 years ago is more an encyclopedic than playable file so I try separate units and formations in chronological order. Generally I include there everything what I found about polish pre-war army until 1939 for example proposed 75mm AA gun which was discussed by PIBWL .There are also now correct icons of polish riverine ships (yes correct icons was included inside shp in previous release so is even not necessary to add shp files). I try to modelled also polish underground army from 11/39 through creation of the AK to anticommunists organisations post disband of AK 10/44. Polish army in France first infantry units created in September 39 (only for human) to June 1940 with R-40 tanks which also was discussed. Formation for Polish Army in France was copied from French OOB. I never finish part about Polish army in UK lost motivation. Formations are done based on page about polish structures mentioned in previous posts so are as close modelled as I can but I assume that are not exactly correct for game engine and are named in polish comparable to German OOB with German names of formations. Hope that PIBWL will be able take some inspiration about already included icons and units and formations which may be possible to add to polish OOB from that file and rewrite this into specification for changes in official OOB for next version. This OOB now fit inside an blue OOB so is easy to check formations inside game. Blazejos |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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As for 75/27 in Italian oob - it is another story, but now there is unit 030 Obice da 75L25. I can't find such gun, so probably it should be just 75/27. PS. I've just "discovered", that picture 127 is 75/32 modello 37. Then, what gun is on picture 301, multiplied in many sources as Italian field gun?.. Mountain 75/18 modello 35? Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Self answer - I've found in Hogg's book, that picture 301, used for field guns since SP-1, is indeed described as 75/18 modello 35. An Italian oob will need separate thread.
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Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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As for the PaK38 in Tobruk: the Italians did order PaK38 AT guns from Germany in summer 1940, but to my knowledge they were delivered only in 1942, because the Germans could not spare them earlier. The DAK of course had them, but presumably not the Italians. Then again, there is a lot of murky corners in Italian WW2 weapons history, especially if one does not have access to printed Italian language sources. Since year 2000 there has been great books published in English about Italian tanks and other vehicles, but artillery is a less popular subject with less sources available. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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So, units 510-511 Krakow (and Wilno if we create it) should be given icon 3488; units 512 to 523 - icon 3487; unit 538 - icon 3489. Also unit 548 Taczanka should be given more appropriate icon 3492 Other supplements for previous comments: 400 37mm AT-Gun - its weapon #13 37mm wz.36 L45 has worse performance, than identical tank gun #15 37mm wz.37 L45, without a reason. They should be the same, with penetration 5 at least (as I've mentioned before, their performance might justify increasing penetration to 6 IMO - for all countries. Their performance figures are rarely given, but they are generally better, than PaK-35/36 - see eg. Jaeger platoon http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS1.htm ). There might be created a formation available in 9/39 only: 'Dubno' Half-Co (a "half-company" of Dubno group), with one platoon of 3 R-35 and one platoon of 3 H-38(H-35). A commander would be given 368 Polski Fiat 508. Next comments: 561, 562 Wz.28 (available in 9/39) - they should be given other class, so that they can't be chosen in armoured car squadrons (there were only 3 left in 1939). Maybe 230 Colonial AC, with an appropriate platoon (named eg. just "Wz.28 platoon"). Probably in 1939 there only remained MG-armed version, but this is my educated assumption (all but 3 cars had been converted to wz.34, so probably all gun-armed cars were converted). In any case there could remain no more, than one gun-armed. Name could be changed to Wz.28 Citroen (they were sometimes known as Citroens, also in documents, due to Citroen-Kegresse chassis). This name was in fact also used sometimes for wz.34 car, but not in any modern publications. 563, 564 Peugot M1918 - they were used by the Army until 1935 at least (http://derela.republika.pl/peugeot.htm) (now 12/31) Photo 29490 of unit 564 actually is MG-armed car - correct is 29488. These cars were actually known just as Peugeots, and their proper designation is unknown (they were wartime models, so often used "1918" is not correct, and wasn't official in Poland). Maybe MG-armed one should be named Peugeot AM, and gun-armed Peugeot AC, according to French nomenclature? Or gun-armed one should be named Peugeot (37mm) 567 Peugot M1918 - name as above. Better action photo for MG-armed version is 29490 573 Peugot M1918 - name as above. Crew was 4(5). 568 Wz.28 - Could be used until 12/36 at least, like units 664-665 (12/34). Name as 561. 663 Wz.28 - as above. 664, 665 Wz.28 I - there was no such designation - we may call it Wz.28 (late). I'll try to find better pictures. There's no reason for 665 to have rangefinder. Light sloping of rear 8 mm plate does not justify armour=2 IMO. In fact, all wz.28 cars had similarly thin armour at front (now 2). . |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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I'm attaching several improved or proposed pictures.
(An attached Autoblinda AB-41 is Polish indeed.) |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Photos of 37mm mle.16 and 65mm mle.06 guns can be as well used in other countries.
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There were initially only "about 30" gun cars, and 37mm guns weren't as freely available, as wz.25 MGs. In 1939 there should be exactly 30 gun-armed wz.34 cars in mobilized formations, so most probably all gun cars were converted to wz.34. On the other hand, unit 561, with a separate class and platoon, should can start at 1/37, right after units 664-665. You can read more at http://derela.republika.pl/wz28.htm |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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As for captured Italian guns, they might have been 100/17 howitzers, which seem popular at that time in North Africa.
To finish with 1939 armoured cars: 569 Wz.29 Ursus - they were built and given to the Army in 7/31 (now 1/30). Speed could be 12 (35 km/h - now 11) - same for units 574, 671. Armament of all wz.29 cars should be IMO reduced to gun and one TMG only. The car officially had three MGs in the beginning, but a BMG was rear-facing, what made it useful in peculiar combat situations only. The remaining three weapons (gun, TMG and AAMG) were manned by a commander and mounted in different sides of a turret, what made quick change of weapon difficult. As for AAMG in an upper ball mounting, it was inefficient, and quickly removed (more: http://derela.republika.pl/wz29.htm) The first unit 569 could have AAMG instead of TMG, because it had some chance of downing a slower aircraft of that era. In next units it should be TMG. I'll attach alternative pictures. 570-572 Wz.34, Wz.34 I, Wz.34 II (variants with MG and early camo) - in my opinion, distinguishing between these models doesn't make much sense. They mark only mechanical components, weren't usually used, and can't be associated with either of two types of armoured hull (more: http://derela.republika.pl/wz34.htm). Wz.34 I is completely redundant - no external difference, nor in specifications, not distinguished from wz.34 II in official statistics. Wz.34 II was newest model, but according to a military manual, it was in fact a bit slower (50 km/h) than wz.34 (54 km/h) (now wz.34 II has 18, rest - 16). IMO, its speed should be 17 (=51 km/h). It could be merged with wz.34 and named just "wz.34", or we could keep both, one with a picture with old hull (vertical rear) and one with newer hull (slanted rear). BTW: the picture 29521 of #571 has late camo, while it's supposed to have old camo. 575-577 Wz.34a, Wz.34 Ia, Wz.34 IIa - as above (variant with 37mm gun and late camo). There was no designation with "a" for a variant with 37mm gun (or any other special designation). It might be named "Wz.34 (37mm)" 674-676 Wz.34a, Wz.34 Ia, Wz.34 IIa - as above (variant with 37mm gun and early camo). Picture 29519 shows cars in late camo, while it is supposed to be early camo. I'll attach a photo of the car with gun and early camo. 678-680 Wz.34, Wz.34 I, Wz.34 II - as above (variant with MG and late camo). If we'd like a photo, a proper one is in fact 29521 (used for early unit 571) Michal |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
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The 100/17 was a little short-ranged by WW2 standards, but otherwise had good qualities (like most Skoda designs, one might add) and was well-liked by Italian artillerymen. The Italians liked the piece so much that it was upgraded twice after WW2, the second time in 1961 with a 105mm L/22 barrel capable of firing standard NATO ammunition. They were scrapped only after the end of the cold war. It must have been one of the longest lasting if not THE longest lasting WW1 artillery pieces anywhere. Sorry about getting a little carried away; about the rear facing MGs of the wz. 29: such weapons were very common in the 1920s and 1930s armored cars. The rationale seems to have been that armored cars were likely to run into ambushes while reconnoitering and would be required to fight their way out with enemies on all sides. The rear driving positions, often with additional driver, were based on the same doctrine as well. Turning the cars around on narrow dirt roads was often impossible and going cross-country difficult with a 4x2 drive. Even the Italian AB 40/41 still retained those qualities out of inertia, while it was a modern design with much better cross-country mobility, and probably did not have much use for the rear driver in practice other than as an extra help in maintenance. |
Re: Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)
Aircraft:
585 LWS-4A Zubr - correct designation is LWS-6 Żubr (LWS-4A was used in old books and is now declared as wrong). This unit is however in fact redundant - a small series was built and assigned for training only, being inferior to PZL 37 Łoś, not used in combat. BTW: it has no dedicated icon, but uses Potez 540. 587 PZL P-43 - should be PZL-43 (or PZL-43 Karas). They were produced in 1937 indeed, but for export only (now available from 10/37). Only in 9/39 two aircraft were pressed to Polish service and briefly used. It's rather "what if" unit, but in game terms its only advantage over PZL-23 Karas is 1 MG more, so it might be redundant (the players should rather not treat this plane as a standard one, for it would be inaccurate. Maybe it should be reclassified to 243 Ground attack and used in prototype formation?). 589 SPAD 61 C1 - it could also carry two #193 12kg bombs [book by A. Morgała]. Withdrawn from active use by end of 1931 (now 11/32). 590 SPAD 51 C1 - icon is typical PZL P fighter - better is 2906 (slightly larger, from some bomber, but with similar swept wings), eventually 2903. 592 PWS-A - used in units from 7/30 (now 1/30) until end of 1935 (now 12/34) [book by A. Morgała]. 593 PWS-10 - used from mid-31 (now 1/31) 594 PZL P-7a - it was used in units only since spring 1933 (now: 10/32 for unit 594) [book by A. Morgała]. Precisely, units 592-594 used Vickers MGs converted to 7.9mm (earlier units: 7.7mm indeed) 602 PWS-26 - only #193 12kg bombs could be carried instead of 25 kg. Speed should be max 3 (now 4) (217 km/h - it was a trainer) 603 Lublin R-XIIIA - proper icon is 2925 - all R-XIII, including early models, were camouflaged (as is visible on photos). 606 Lublin R-XIIIG - only #193 12kg bombs could be carried instead of 25 kg. Speed should be only 2 (now 4) (175 km/h) |
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