ATGM Units
 

Most units seem to have good routines for using weapons but I was wondering what peoples views were on ATGMs & if they could be changed.
Ranges are in hexes
Foot ATGMS
Set range to engage infantry at say 3 hexes regardless of second weapon range.
The idea is to stop them giving away there position & having shots bled preventing the use of the ATGM.
I assume it would work like the Y key & if fired on the range would then be reset.

Vehicle ATGMs equiped with a MG normally an AAMG I think.
Not IFVs with ATGMs just SP-ATGMs like the German Jaguar
Let the AAMG function normally vs air.
Versus infantry set range to say 10 - 12.
Reasoning again to stop giving away & bleeding of shots.
As far as I know very few infantry weapons have a range greater than 10 that are capable of destroying it.
Couple of RPGs with range of 12 MBT LAW & latest Panzerfaust 3
The odd flame type RPG
GL Teams equipped with HEAT

Also both should only engage Soft Vehicles at close range, say 8 hexes.
ATGMs are not effective vs them let the MMG & HMG do it

What are peoples views on this pros & cons, there is the odd instance when its not beneficial but on the whole this would help the AI.
Its the one type of unit I always set using the Op Fire Filter

Re: ATGM Units
 

Well 28 views & no comments so far so I would take that to mean people like it as it is.
Was an idea as just played a battle in 1989 vs the AI as USA. I admit Dragons are easier to spot than most ATGMs as size 1 & relativly short range but there firing at my infantry meant I hardly got a surprise throughout the whole game.
This despite the fact the ratio at that time is about 2 squads to 1 Dragon.
RPG equiped AT teams seem more likely to give you a surprise by staying silent & then firing in thier turn.

Re: ATGM Units
 

If I'm understanding you you're saying weapons such as ATGMs and maybe tank cannon would fire at opposing armor only while secondary tank weapons such as MGs and AAMGs would not (generally)? Likewise soft tatgets such as trucks and infantry would be fired upon by MGs but not ATGMs and tank cannon. Do I have it right? You cited a couple of benefits plus, to my mind, it would move the game along somewhat. Reducing the riccochet sound effects would help too. :)

Re: ATGM Units
 

Not really I was mainly advocating it for ATGM teams, because they cant fire it if moved so remaining concealed & not having to relocate is important for them, especially for the AI that cant think to pull them out.
It is way to easy to use the gamey tactic of bleeding 2 shots off them & then exposing an AFV to kill them.
Dont get me wrong I hate them they are the scourge of the modern battlefield, especially those sides that use a lot of them. They negate to a large extent the power of Mech formations as caution is required supporting your infantry & moving to reinforce.
The soft target bit is mainly because its giving away its position (roughly at least) for a target other units can deal with easily enough. Also considiring it only has 4 shots & they are very ineffective vs soft targets its a waste really.
Tanks IFVs etc do tend to be pretty good at target selection anyway with the exception they sometimes fire at mid ranged infantry when you dont want them to.
Staying hidden is not always a priority to them though & they can move & fire.
I think of ATGM teams as the armour equivalent of the sniper, they cause disruption & caution & slow things down a lot if they can perform their role. Locate & destroy is high priority.

Re: ATGM Units
 

Okay, I see what you're saying. I prefer SPMBT over SPWW2 much of the time primarily because the ATGM teams provide an added dimension to the modern battlefield. You make a good analogy by calling them the "armour equivalent of a sniper" which is how I often use them placing them in ambush positions to thin out enemy armour or alert me to armoured threats. I know I'm still a little off :)topic here and would like to read what others have to say regarding your original message specifics.

Re: ATGM Units
 

I'm not sure of the point here,i suspect it's the age old topic on why ATGM's waste shots on soft targets in OP fire.

If you want to keep them silent,just turn the main weapon off and wait until the juicier targets come in,, then let them have it.

Re: ATGM Units
 

No Gila the main point is for ATGM teams not to fire at infantry unless they have to.
So fire at infantry only if within 3 hexes unless it recieves fire at greater range so is obviously detected.
I set mine this way all the time & it works fine, it is more likely to help the AI than the player as it is more likely to end up with infantry in range of its second weapon especially if its not defending.
Yes a human player can turn the second weapon of or use the Op Filter but the AI wont.

Re: ATGM Units
 

I like the proposal.

(Similarly, I find it tiresome for WW2 tank destroyers to turn off the main gun every time for the enemy turn duration, after it has moved to its fully allowance. It won't hit the target, it will waste precious ammunition, and it will reveal it's location.)

Re: ATGM Units
 

I see i missed this part,

Re: ATGM Units
 

@IMP

Why? are you so concerned about the AI,they already use ample amount of ATGM's IMO.

Your proposal on having the AI filter fire thier AT's is of course,, beyond the scope this game.

If was possible,then there be countless complaints i suspect.

Or am I still missing your point here:)

Re: ATGM Units
 

.
No its not they can be set up to work that way

Because its an easy fix unlike sorting the pathing so that the AI does not lemming charge at you & the AI needs all the help it can get.

On that as a sort of fix when a vehicle fires its smoke dischargers (or possibly is fired on) could that triger a series of choices for the AI all of which include unloading any passengers.
1) Stop & unload
2) Move back along the original path & unload
3) Advance & unload.
Also if possible all later moving vehicles should unload when get within say 2-5 hexes of the event determined randomly.
Or as no idea how it works have hexes that are fired on by the enemy"flaged" by the AI as hostile & vehicles near it go to combat speeds & unload.
So they will move at only 1-3 hexes following passengers if possible.
or possibly vehicle will remain stationary the turn after it unloads only moving if a enemy unit is seen that it can fire on with a small move.
Perhaps making hexes that have recieved fire act as temporary Victory flag hexes would work as the AI seems to perform better when within about 10 hexes of them

Re: ATGM Units
 

I don't have much time as I have NLW Trng. in the morning, however I do concur that the AI needs some help here to prioritize it's targets, HP teams will do the same thing in shooting at trucks and utility type vehicles during the AI movement sequence. It "seems" the AI does learn that the opposing HP team is shooting a little more then would be expected and thus move those type vehicles first if used before the more high value units so as to draw that fire. Coincidence? I don't know I'm not a software guy, however if you haven't got there yet, the problem with the AI shooting low value targets is the fact that it can't resupply it's teams with ammo where the HP can do this for his teams all battle long. If I'm making the investment in ATGW teams you better believe I'll have a means of resupply close by. It's a game option I have and most people out here understand it's real life with most modern armies today as well. As ammo resupply is an issue for the AI then limits maybe should be placed on the AI to target MBT, IFV, APC/FORTS, SPAA/SPA, GRUNTS, then all the rest as the game progresses.
Just my "two cents" as I've watched this progress.
Good Night!

Regards,
Pat

Re: ATGM Units
 

To be fair, resupply is too easily abused in the game, making multiple rocket launchers for example seem much more effective than they are - one reload sure, infinite reloads no.

Besides, not being good at prioritizing targets is at least realistic. It is only because the human is given unrealistic powers that it is unfair. In real life, you are aiming at silhouettes, not things clearly marked "Truck" or "T-80BV" with their weapons listed.

But what I would like to see is fixing the Auto Deploy function. I notice that often one platoon of Company A (which is mostly in the South Side) is scattered all the way to the North, in Company B's area, and so on. Obviously, the computer cannot be as smart as human but I would like seeing at least two things:
1) Companies grouped together rather than scattered)
2) Better deployment for things like tanks and ATGM. Perfection is impossible but at least they can care about LOS. Infantry hiding in woods is more or less acceptable, ATGM units wasting their LOS in the woods is not.

Re: ATGM Units
 

Point one could be looked at. I'm not in a position to run test to evaluate this ATM but I will in the future

Point two is not possible because the game has no concept of LOS when it deploys but if it did you wouldn't find those nasty ambushes in places that normally an AT gun or ATGM would be. Random unpredictability is what keeps people on their toes in this game.

The simplest way to understand how the AI deploys is to set up a game and buy some units. Then, when the next screen appears press "Auto deploy" then, when the game loads, press ' = ' key and the units will be redeployed. Every time you press that they will be redeployed. That's what the AI side does once when you start the game.

Now go back to SP2 and do the same to see how far deployment has advanced in the game. The game DOES NOT ( and can not ) calculate every possible LOS combination for every unit for every hex on the map before deciding where is the "best" place for a unit to be. Sometimes the best place for a AT unit to be is the last place you'd expect an AT unit to be. If we could manage to only put units in the "best" place it wouldn't take players long to figure out where the best place to attack would be.

Don

Re: ATGM Units
 

As a matter of fact, a few years back I tried calculating the "best LOS" as a little test of deploying units, in the defence. It added about 5 minutes to the AI deploy time for a not too large force, and tended to put the stuff in "very obvious" places like all the AAA on the top of the only hill in the defended area etc..

So basically - not much advantage over the random placement the AI uses ATM, and less unpredictability for someone who did a little terrain analysis.

However - I have some ideas for experiments in generating a better AI defence using an LOS map. Will see if I get the time this year.

Andy