MP etiquette-going AI
 

what is the protocol here? im in the early game, and two players allied, prob around turn 4 or 5, and are bent on my destruction. it is turn 22, i think. i did all i could, tried to make outside alliances(all diplo failed) offered both terms(no responses from either party). took some chances to try to buy some time, but had limited success.

i am doomed, as it would seem these players basically started the game in an alliance with a plan to eliminate whoever was between them. that's fine, as there are plenty of games out there. however, i don't want to quit too early and upset anyone.

when can i "call it a day"?

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

My experience is that events can take a turn quickly, for instance someone joining the war in time if u hold on for long enough.

One other reason for playing is transforming the "hopeless" position into a "hopeful" one by aiming for a new goal: instead playing for final victory one might play for (for instance) making a very tough last stand.

In my games i prefer someone turning AI to playing unhappily with us while feeling he is forced to do so. I also think there are differences between the cultures of different dom3 communities regarding turning AI: here on shrapnel there are some people who will be very frustrated by that, and seemingly can only react in anger.

I personally dont consider turning AI a big deal.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Turning AI is fine as long as you talk to the game admin. Give him chance to find a substitute if he thinks that your position is still not lost. And then if no substitute is found in couple of days to a week they will turn you AI. I think thats fair to anyone. The thing is joining a multiplayer game you have to be thinking of the others playing. So if you turning AI will give someone an easy win and thus he can double his territories at little no cost, ruining the game for all the other players, then you shouldn't do that. Ask around the game thread if its fine to leave the game or turn AI first.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Imo one should go AI only when one can do nothing else to harass whoever is attacking. That may well mean playing to the end, but even if you're able to hold out 1-2 turns longer than if you had turned AI from the start then that impacts your invaders and benefits the other players not attacking you.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Be very careful when making statements like this, as many if not all MP games frown on such behaviour ie. making alliances b4 a game commences. As one of the parties involved in this supposed alliance against you, I certainly take offence to such a charge.

Now I have seen you post on the forums and you have appeared to be a decent chap.

There was no such alliance made against you and I was approached by Ulm to attack you in conjunction with him the same turn I killed your pretender. That was like turn 10 to 14 from memory.
A far cry from "the beginning of the game".

If you REALLY want to learn from that game, think about your approach to me over the disputed province, you claimed as having arrived there first. We both arrived there the same turn, you just got to fight the indies b4 we fought. None the less it was the same turn.

You say you have approached both opponents for a truce. You certainly approached me, but you still claimed that province I "stole" from you. That province has exactly 1 other province between it and my capital. Do you really think I will just hand it over to you because you said you "arrived" there first?

There are a number of reasons you are in your current predicament.

I'll just comment on one. You diplomacy failed badly. If you continue to approach diplomacy in every game the same way you approached this game, you will be turning AI quite often.

I am still learning this game, it has a huge learning curve which I am still on way down the bottom. But diplomacy I learned from playing other multi player games.

That's the way I see it, just some friendly advice and look forward to meeting you in a future game, honestly.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

And to comment on an earlier point in the thread. I was in a completely hopeless situation in my first ever game (I subbed). My opponent get a siege on my last province/castle and was going for a domkill. I amused myself by trying to research and alchemize to create an Eater of the Dead. I was then going to try to breakout with my last remaining army. Not sure what would have happened, would have been fun...but I got domkilled the turn before I could make my last stand.

Point is it only took a couple of minutes a day and it was fun...though I would have liked to have had my last battle :D.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

I have a couple of games going where I have 1 or two provinces left and two recently games where I was killed to the last man.

But yeah, fighting off a superior enemy in your capital with all those mages is certainly rewarding, and it only takes 5 minutes at most to handle the move.

It all depends on your mind set.

"Oh, I can't win, I had better go AI".

There is a lot of fun to be had in losing in this game.

That's why I play games, for enjoyment. If that only came with winning, I would have stopped playing games long ago.

Luv it!

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Regarding the 2 nations in that game:

I think it is safe to say there was no alliance fromthe start of the game between those two. Just typical diplomacy that develops during the game. I've found both players to be honorable and up front.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Thanks for saying that Matt.

Means I'll probable have to kick your butt a bit softer in our new games just started.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Going AI:
When you only have one last fort without any commanders/mages/troops in it. Go ahead.

At shrapnel:
Ask the game admin. But generally frowned upon.

At dom3mods:
Never do this. Get a sub/fight it out. (The idea is, that you can still learn a lot form desperate last stand tactics and tricks, and going AI isn't fair for non invading players).

At SA:
Go ahead, you are playing the game to have fun. If it isn't fun, you should stop.

Those are my general conclusions.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

well hooley, i didn't say an alliance before the game, i said very early. i think i said turn 5, but if it was turn 10, that is not all that big a difference.

the reason i was so heavy handed in diplomacy is because i beleived i had the upper hand. i then attacked with my SC, and he fell asleep, and you killed him. EXTREMELY dumb on my part, but hey, i'm the only one to blame there. i actually can be a very pleasant neighbor...when i think you are stronger than me. and obviously i either overestimated myself, underestimated you, or both.

also, i was a bit surprised to find shardphoenix, a guy who has helped me many times by answering my questions, was my neighbor in a newbie game!! of course, i didn't figure this out until you and i were mauling one another.

in short, i realize that due to my own miscalculations and your alliance, that this game is hopeless. but i did figure one thing out: if you really don't care, you can cook off a turn in no time at all! so i won't be going AI. but if you are nice to me, i might withdraw to the north, cede you a bunch of territory, stop my raiding in force, and give you my southern castle. we'll just have to decide where you will stop coming. this way, shard don't get too much of my corpse, and maybe i can spring a nasty surprise!!!

well, since this is public, i guess that won't work...:cold:

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

I've only played a couple MP games, so I'm sort of in the same boat as you as far as experience is concerned, parone. One of my games, after getting off to a great start, I was quickly and brutally pushed back to my capital. I've spent more than half the game besieged in my capital.

It was by far the best MP learning experience I've had. I have practically no hope of overcoming my current situation, but it has helped me a ton. I've been able to learn a lot about efficiency in research, summoning, and forging. All stuff it might have taken me a lot longer to realize or learn through games where I was doing better. Its worth sticking it out to the bitter end, IMO.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

If you still intend to go AI, parone, I'm very permissive about it (again, not having fun or learning, might as well). Still, I'd be better to find a sub in that case (or I can help find one for you).

I've been skitting about the edge of the war in question, and which really kinda threw a monkey wrench in my own plans.

My opinion is that in general, diplomacy is as important an aspect of the game as scripting your commanders and armies, etc. Being able to plan who you're at war against, and insuring temporary peace against those whom you'd rather not go against (and even forging coalitions against large threats), are all integral parts of the game. I don't have much knowledge about the specifics of the encounter, but the best I can say that it's part of the game. People will inevitably bandwagon against a losing war (because it's easier gains for them). The best I would suggest is to keep up a lively rapport with all your neighbors, even if only to glean information on neighbors etc.

I'll admit, when I first played MP, I was terrible at it. One game, I just got straight-up smashed by a CW Pan when playing Helheim, and did a terrible job conducting my diplomacy overall. Another game, I made NAPs with all my neighbors, sat on my hands most of the game, and got promptly squished by larger empires (ehm). etc, etc. My diplomacy this game has also been less than stellar.

You aren't quite dead yet! There is still a chance I can save you (via diplomacy, or other measures)! ...unlikely, but still! I kinda still wanted to turtle for just a few more turns, but it's still possible (if implausible)!

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

As far as going AI parone, its a mistake...

Everyone makes mistakes and you can make them howl over it...

I don't know what position your playing but if you can horror mark their SC's, then summon horrors...

Make them regret going into your capitol...

I always send a scout into the castle to see what their plan is...

I learned that the hard way... :hurt:

Losing is learning...

Force them to finish you off and watch how they do it.

;)

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

What game is this? I haven't done online multiplayer, but I can probably figure it out and subbing in this sounds like a pretty good way to start. I may not have much in the way of experience, but I can effectively guarantee being better than the AI.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

not going AI. just deciding whether or not to try to stay alive, or try to do as much damage as possible while dying.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Hilariously, I got in literally the exact same position in my first game with samoht...and I am sticking out to the bitter end, and have every intention of making seiging my final fort the biggest pain in the arse ever.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

oh your fort is already a very, very large pain in the proverbial rear end. :p

It would be too embarassing to admit how much time I spend every day just glaring at your capital on my computer screen.

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

My spies keep dying guys, but that is one battle I want to see between Samoht and 3v4jkz2!

Also, how much under does one man need when they only count as 1/10 of person when sieging?

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Last stands are a lot of fun, especially when you have some decent mages to sacrifice. Practice playing dirty!

Re: MP etiquette-going AI
 

Which is really good practice for your next game! I spent probably half of my first MP game fighting last stand after last stand at my capital, and really learned a lot (like that swarm is great for blocking the gate to a castle, that quagmire + lots of clouds of death and sleep = fun, and that whiter bones kicks bony undead arse like nothing else, but that communioned banishments should not be underestimated.)! So I would encourage players to stick it out, especially since last stand turns take like under 5 minutes to prepare.