this was a bummer...
 

i was reading on this forum(i think it was in "the future of dom III) that basically, in the upper level games, everyone plays the same(scales set to high magic, sloth-all players using the same summoning spells, national troops/summons basically ignored). is this true? the best thing about dom has always been(in my opinion) so many options. what a shame to think at the highest levels there is only one way to play.

is this true? if so, would it effect me, a newbie? and also, are there any newbies left? i mean, the game has been out awhile.

just some musings...

Re: this was a bummer...
 

YES it is absolutely true.

If by everyone you mean everyone on this forum. The other forums with Dom3 populations also tend to play the same, but not the same as this forum. Also the are the various Dom3 IRC channels. Part of the problem isnt just that they play the same but that they tend toward playing the same game all the time. The same game settings and the same size or style of map tends to define what nations and tactics are strong or weak.

There is a thread here about game variations but its rare to see one of them tried.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35083

Re: this was a bummer...
 

err... what?

Absolutely untrue.

There is a set of spells which sees frequent use in lategame. However, this set of spells comprises multiple distinct strategies. Especially since mods like CBM and EDM have actually increased the range of plausible options.

FWIW, the SA community uses a rather similar array of options in lategame as this forum's community, with certain predictable changes based upon differences in mods. (Ie, stuff that sucks outside of CBM doesn't get used in non-CBM games. The awesome mod series by ninjadebugger has made certain units viable that weren't before).

Current CBM has multiple known viable endgame strategies.

Now, certain battlefield enchantments are basically required lategame, but stuff like Fog Warriors is simply too powerful to be ignored and nothing else does anything remotely like what it does (and it stacks with everything else). Of course spells like that are going to be used by everyone who can.

Midgame is even more diverse, with piles of different strategies.

And all of that is before even considering nation-specific spells.

Gandalf, afaik you haven't played an MP game in *years*, I don't know why you think you can say that MP games always end in the same spells being used.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Also for game variants not being used, yeah, sure, CBM (and maybe vanilla on this forum?) are dominant, but there is at least one Cataclysm and one Randomocalypse game up on this very forum and one Cataclysm game on the other one. There are also other games, some of which I'm pretty sure run one of the two mods. Sure though, same strategies will apply (especially in Cataclysm) in the endgame, but early and mid game are wildly different in both of those.

Now I need to get utterly frustrated with my current coding project so I can get the motivation to finish the sprite-generating NationGen for even more interesting random nations. Current iteration generates some pretty interesting results (for example black human samurais, oriental lizardmen (see my avatar!), cavalry with battleaxes and naked tower shield crossbowmen) along with stuff that's pretty much the same that's in the game already. It just lacks proper mage and sacred generation (with sacreds especially being potentially fairly wild) and needs varying rewrites in other areas. Sadly developing Dominions 3 content isn't very rewarding.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Wow i'm surprised by your answer Gandalf.
I think it's totally untrue to say that it's always the same dom & spells used.
Concerning the dom there is some popular pick (for instance +1 magic scale) but dom settings are usually set to fit the nation choice but also the strategy you are planning.

Now concerning spells there are the popular ones (such as fog warrior mentioned earlier) but finally i think 90% of the spells are usable, some ofc only in niche use.

However i haven't the experience of many ppl here, but dom3 sounds to me complex enough in MP so you can't win by just applying a common guide (such as Baalz's) despite his high quality.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Gandalf, I wish you would stop repeating unfounded comments like this. It's very frustrating. I understand that you were just using the question as a platform to advertise the diversity between communities, which is one of your favourite points, but you ended up basing your answer on misinformation.

To answer the question, early in dom3's life it was a bit like that. However, changes in subsequent patches, along with the Conceptual Balance Mod*, have greatly improved things. There is now an extremely diverse range of options available regardless of player level.

As to whether there are any newbies - yes, there seems to be a surprisingly steady stream of newbies, which is great. If you look in the MP forum then a lot of the games are described as "for newbies".

* - I think I can still trumpet CBM despite being its current maintainer, since the large majority of the work in it was done before my time.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Heh.

Don't believe a word you hear about a grand unified field theory...

Some joker will set you up if you don't change your tactics from time to time...

And that's in the game, not just the start...

Re: this was a bummer...
 

So many disagreements :) Thank you.
But no one here is going to nibble and start up an extreme alternative game setting to PROVE the point? The surprise at how such games totally trash the usual "everyone knows" about what is great or what sucks is so much fun (which isnt really obvious unless you play outside a specific group). We could use abit more creativity around here from the same size maps and same game goals which obviously sparked the original comment. Review the games options. Think outside the menu.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

People already do that Gandalf. I don't know where your comments come from.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

And to answer the other question about Noobs. Yes. 2 weeks ago I had never played an MP game and Now I'm 2 Noob games and hopefully a 3rd soon. They are very enjoyable and you learn a lot from watching and the boards. They take very little time also. There is a one that still needs 1 player and another 1 just starting if you would like to join.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Take it from this sucker: yeah, early turns take 5 minutes.
You don't want to be playing multiple mid-to-end games at once though. It will eat your life.

When I first started playing dominions MP and was *really* OCD about everything, even playing 2 games at the same time (one late game, one early-mid) occupied almost all of my daily brain time. I'm serious - I could barely concentrate on my work.
These days I don't get as involved any more. I think. I still try to restrict myself to one game, or at least give each successive game a couple months' head start.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

thanks to all who weighed in. all usefull info, and im sure you are all correct on some level. as i will likely never progress much beyond a new to below average player, it sounds as though i have little to worry about. now i just gotta come up with $60 before everyone stops playing!

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Heehee. That doesnt seem to be a danger. Not like other games. Ive paid as much for games that lasted about a month then someone posted an undeniable walk-thru that won every time. Those games died.

Dominions 1, 2, 3 have stayed on some of our computers thru many upgraded machines. And years later we are still arguing about tactics and walk thrus. Even if it did ever happen, I think we can count on Johan to patch a wrench into it. :)

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Been there done that, burned the T-shirt and sacrificed the designer.

The little group I play Dominions MP with, which mixes Dom3 veterans and newbies from the Paradox forums, experiment with settings, not to prove points, but to find out what suits us - and achieve interesting results thereby. Some things that are touted as conventional wisdom in these Shrapnel forums work as well for us, some worse, and some much worse, because our culture of diplomacy is different - and successful diplomacy is at least half the route to victory.

I would be deeply surprised if other smaller groups don't do the same on a frequent basis and don't see any reason whatsoever to tell you so on the official boards.

But we probably don't play different enough that you'd consider it proving any points.

----------------


That said, the 11 human/7 mighty AI player game on GreeceStain that ended in a turn in the 80's or 90's when the opposition saw me and my (temporary) ally teleporting in SCs all around the capital of one of our enemies (temporarily allied against the temporar alliance of the two of us), raising a fortress in one of the provinces by magic the next turn, followed by the dominion-crushing blow of my sending 17 Juggernauts into the fortress next to his capital next turn... was pretty awesome - and not too shabbily done for a player who had 2 fortresses and less than 6 provinces to his name for most of the turns 28-42, when he was under attack by three players and all alone in the world while his troops deserted. :D

Who needs blood sacrifice when you have the Arcane Nexus?

-- This, incidentally, is one of those examples where giving only the bare bones of the story will cause many Shrapnel forum MP veterans who recoil in disgust or suspect incompetence on the hands of other players for not bringing down the Nexus the moment it first went up.

I assure you that it was brought down once by one half of the other players cooperating as soon as they could, and they did it when I didn't have enough astral pearls to bring it up again, only to return 15 turns later at my hands, at which point it was opposed by the other half of the players, but not by those that brought it down the first time and, diplomatically speaking, it made excellent sense at the time for everybody to act as they did both times.

In the end, the Arcane Nexus was up for almost half the game without a single armageddon being cast.

--------

Currently we are trying out cumulative VP games with 10-15 VP to win, 1 VP per capital, no AIs to inflate the ranks, and no shared victories. Those are, not surprisingly, interesting too, just like all the previous games we have played regardless of settings.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Feel free to check out http://www.dom3minions.com

The Mods and Maps both offer some very different methods of play. The Hosted games also showcase some very non-standard games. The Hosting link goes even farther with a link to a thread full of non-standard ideas, and a challenge to come up with a variation I cant host.

Any of those, or any other variant, can be hosted there. Most of the games hosted on that system are from forums other than this one. Anything can be run. (altho if it is entirely PbEM and fits in their menu of offerings I would prefer people use LLamaServer.net just to share the load)

Re: this was a bummer...
 

I disagree with posters here that claim everithing is fine.
I started creating MP games with random nations only because some players only play with nations that exploits an horrendous feature. They only play with nations like vanheim that can cloud trapeze a thug with sneak ability and then sneak out. Why cant you zap him with a spell like it would be logical. because he sneaks before spell. Isnt that ridiculous?
That needs to be changed by a patch.
I fixed that creating only random games. I know who are the players that like to use exploits ande they never join my games because they wouldnt perform with a random nation.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

The game does have a burnout level. The expert level tends to be the group mentioned above IMO. Cant really hold it against them for preferring to create games that allow them to win by their skills. Beyond that much play are the burnouts. They tend to produce some of the most popular 3rd party addons and services. And only show up once in awhile for really interesting variations.

But I still hold that it tends to be true of this forum more than the others. Different forums and channels have very different feels to them. And it reflects in their Dom3 games.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

well gandalf, which channel would u recommend for a beginner?

Re: this was a bummer...
 

What channel? None.
I think that all of the IRC channels tend to help new players by training them. Many months of fun and experimentation can be skipped that way.

Besides which, the best forums and channels are like gold mines. Its only best if you dont publicly announce where it is :)

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Err... wot ? It's not an exploit in any way, shape or form. It's just something Vanheim can do that other nations can't. Every nation has some proprietary feature that gives them an edge. Is it an exploit that MA Ermor/LA C'tis can vomit hundreds of free, superior undead from their caps every turn, that TC can recruit lots of superb research mages with barely any gold investment, that Hinnom will wreck your armies early game even without a bless because that's how it (literally) rolls, that Panir freespawn a dozen maenads per turn each or that Arco can afford to mindhunt even other astral nations in bulk because it has priestesses to heal the feebleminds instantly ?

Speaking of which, mind hunt alone will wreck a Vanheim player relying solely on that particular strat. Just sayin' ;).

Re: this was a bummer...
 

The "feature" you say its unintended by the devs. An accident. Besides i dont say its cheating. I say its lame. And if every nation has an aedge why those players cant play a random nation game??
Did you ever seen a player win with maenads? how those undead are superior units? Wrong examples. Acro mind hunt its too srong yes.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

So your hypothesis is that the developers accidentally put in separate playing styles for every nation? Moreover, it is still a complete accident despite, for instance, drastic differences in nation specific spells, dominion effects, and of course troops? Really?

As for the various "cheap" strategies, every one of them has counters. Take Vanheim - domes pretty much close that strategy entirely. Take Arco - mindless commanders can just ignore Mind Hunt, and it isn't like there aren't assassination spells that can target Arco. Hordes of undead can be valuable, particularly high quality undead with generally better stats (Lanka, C'tis), etc.

As for people not playing random nation games, really learning how to use a nation well takes time. Moreover, some nations fit some people, and just won't fit others. EA Mictlan is incredibly powerful, that doesn't mean that I am any good with them. Just having an edge isn't enough, one has to know how to use it.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

More importantly, one S3 mage automatically *feebleminds* all mindhunts directed at the province, S2 does so like 90% of the time, and S1 still hits ~half.

Anyway, there's a huge diversity of games at dom3mods, with tons of mod nation games, random nations, barebones nations with great sites, and so forth. Modding is still alive and well, and to pretend all games are the same necessarily suggests the claimant hasn't actually played much recently.

Gandalf, if you want to make claims about the dom3 community, you need to actually participate in it by *playing games*.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Perhaps, but it seems it's one the devs were quite OK with - Glamour was specifically nerfed in one of the patches, without touching this aspect of it.

I don't see how the two concepts are linked in any way, shape or form. It's not that people want to play their pet strats or even win at any cost, it's that playing nations assigned to them at random holds little interest for most people.
Blood magic is very powerful, but having played one LA Mictlan game, I'm leery of playing with it again because the micro is insane. I couldn't play Bandar well to save my life. I have zero interest in Niefelheim. And so forth.

Yes. Those undead are superior to the undead other nations can reanimate (if they even have that option). Arco mind hunts are counter-able. Everything is counterable.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

HAHAHA

First off, Id say that hosting many of the non-menued games would suffice in knowing what is being tried in that regard. Not nearly enough for my preference so, yes I agree with the original poster.

Secondly, you make assumptions that I dont play.

Thirdly, and most importantly for my laughter, you mention EXCELLENT game variations. Modded nations, random nations, barebones, and modding. Thank you for the wonderful examples of creative Dom3 games on the Dom3Mods forum (which are not on this forum). I could also list such variations on other forums (not on this forum). So are you suggesting that if the original poster wants to find some variation in the Dom3 games being played that he should maybe visit other Dom3 communities on other forums?
Thank you.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

if you learn how to read you should read
Feature is singular (one) not EVERY feature the game has. That would be plural "all featureS"
As I said READ before you write.
"tongue is faster than the brain"

The point in Arco Mind hunt is that you dont care if your mage goes feebleminded. You just heal him/her while other mahe uses his/her items to continuely mind hunt everywhere. If you put 1 astral mage everywhere you are spending more than I am. And i can mind hunt other player. (maybe for a price, paid by the enemy of that player)

Re: this was a bummer...
 

The irony of this statement speaks for itself. Moreover, if your argument is predicated on a nation being cheap because they can do something other nations cannot do, and every nation has something like that - which they do - you cannot claim that that feature was unintended without the exact same logic putting forth the same conclusion for all nations.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

I was going to argue what you just said but you said before
It shows teorize vs practice. I hope you luck building a lab in every province and casting a dome everywhere. Cheap strategy there. sorry.
I better stick to the old plan of retaking provinces vanheim just stole with a common commander and few troops vs the pd 1 he just left.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Gandalf, there are times when I really don't understand you. You do not post links to forums and channels because helping people is robbing them of the fun of doing experiments? Why force people to reinvent the wheel all over again. Or worse, to hit local maxima, when there are higher peaks to be reached.

(Note, when I read this I got a strange feeling, it feels a bit like those new age religions, where people do not help you because you need to figure things out for yourself. Which has lead to hilarious stuff, like a important writer of one of these religions asking for a link to certain magical documents. Which was then refused by one of the newbies because he needed to discover things by himself, because he was not ready yet.)

For help go here:
irc.gamesurge.net #dominions (A bit silent as of late, as some oldtimers have seemed to quit the game, but still frequented by a few excellent players).

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=idx
This forum tends to be a bit more unfriendly than this one. So expect harsh language. When people think you are full of poo they will say so. Strangely, there are fewer flamewars on dom3mods.

These links also help a lot.
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/
http://wolfsbane.alwaysdata.net/Spells.html

However the wiki is based on vanilla only. Which can be confusing at times.

Edit:
I'm not a goon, but I do sometimes read the dom3 threads.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...readid=3411351
The intro threads are reasonably good. The rest of the threads can sometimes contain a lot of misinformation (For example, the myth that flyers need to make a morale check to attack rear if there are other units in the way. Sure there is a check, but it isn't a morale check). But anything thedemon says is usually golden :D. (But there are a lot more knowledgeable goons. And the mods they use tend to be of the more is more variety. While CBM is more about less is more, and some balance).

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Sorry Soy. But continual beating down here (and health concerns in real life) have drained the effervescent optimist community-support fanboi in me. I dont work here anymore and its unlikely to ever happen again so ptthhh!
I move on to join the ranks of those who went before me.

Feel free to take over. Appreciated.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Sucks to hear that. Dunno how bad it is, but hope it improves.

Re: this was a bummer...
 

Back to the OP:

IMHO it’s not one strategy, but a few different ones.
Some of those strategies get better with different settings and mods (and different map size), some worse.
Example: Scales build got better with (the last?) CBM.

But there are strategies that won’t work against human players.