MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

I'm going to release an Alpha version of the mod described below, once I've finished writing it up, that covers only the nations of MA Ulm, MA Machaka, MA Agartha and MA Mictlan.

A final version of the mod will include bennies for MA Man (needs a late game), MA Arco (just needs to be a bit better, all around), MA T'ien Ch'i (likewise), MA Abysia (needs ranged attacks w/out research, better non-capital researchers), MA C'tis, MA Bandar Log (needs castle defense-bonus troops, mainly), and MA Oceania (needs so much help I'm not sure where to start.)

General Note
All national commanders (and most non-magic wielding national priests) would like to be given retinues that appear in each battle using #onebattlespell. I need to test to make sure this works, though.

A typical retinue will be:
total gold + total resources / 2 = (gold + resources) * 1.25
Thus, a Paladin costs 130 gp + 61 RP = 191 * 1.25 = 238
A knight of the chalice costs 80 gp + 61 RP / 2 = 110, so a Paladin gets a retinue of 2 Knights of the Chalice.
A centurion gets (30 + 21) * 1.25 = 63 pts, and Hastati are 22 pts, so he gets a retinue of 2 hastati.
A legatus legionis gets (70 + 21) * 1.25 = 113 pts, and principe are 25 pts, so he gets a retinue of 4 principes.
And so forth.

The whole purpose of this is that independent commanders will not get these retinues. I could make them larger (up to twice that large) if required. Giant nations will not get these retinues. I may re-use some retinues if the # of spells starts to be a problem.

MA Ulm - Needs better troops, higher MR stuff to do, stuff to do with fire gems, way to get strong ritual casters, national combat spells to fight mid and late game opp with what they already have.
Full Plate of Ulm - Prot 22 & Enc 3.
Tower Shield of Ulm - Prot 20 & Enc 1
Kite Shield of Ulm - Prot 25 & Def -1
Battleaxe of Ulm - Dam 14, Att 1, L 0, Magic
Warflail of Ulm - Dam 6, Def -1, Magic
Maul of Ulm - AP, Magic
Hammer of Ulm - AP, Magic
Morningstar of Ulm - Dam 11, Def -1, Magic
Pike of Ulm - Dam 10, Att 3, Magic
Black Halberd of Ulm - Att 3, AP.

All the normal Ulmish infantry (black plate and not) are cheap because they are acremen, and will get a land grant upon their retirement.

They get three catapults out of the forges of Ulm - one shoots fire, one shoots boulders, one shoots sling stones (10 at once.) You also get a Marksman out of the forges of Ulm, who has a black-steel firing crossbow (magic).

You get:
Hammer the Unclean - E2, Thaumaturgy, hurts demons
Hammer the Unliving - E2, Thaumaturgy, hurts undead
Hammer the Unnatural - E2, Thaumaturgy, hurts magical beings
Tempering the Spirit - E4, Thaumaturgy, medium area gets Astral Weapons
Tempering the Wind - E3A, Thaumaturgy, medium area cloud gives SR100 to friendly units. Because I can.
Tempering the Will - is now free (Fat Cost 90), and not MRN.
Tempering the Flesh - E4, Thaumaturgy, Strength for everyone? This one is still up for debate.

Prognostication Engine - S1E3, Const 3, Makes an immobile, S-magic using, research bonus, bad-events preventing object
Forge Furchtlos - E4, Const 3, Makes a living, iron sarcophagus for a guardian of Ulm who has fallen in battle against heretics. The Furchtlos is iron, not flesh, so it is an object of religious reverance, and a source of inspiration in battle to the men of Ulm. Basically a sacred Crusher with Bane of Heresy on the fists.
The Phlogiston Orb - E4F2, Const 5, Makes a floating, F-magic using, metal ball. Unique.
The Mammom Machine - E5A3, Const 7, Makes an immobile, Air/Blood/Nature caster, also a reaper (kills population.) Unique.

MA Machaka - Needs late game, higher MR stuff to do, stuff to do with fire gems, way to get astral.

Machaka Spear to Att 0, Def 0
Hunter Spiders to MR 12.
Spider Rider gets Light Lance.
Spider Knight gets Lance/Machaka Spear.
Black Hunter gets Lance/Bane Blade.
All the spiders get "spider barding" (for +5RP Black Hunter, +2RP on Spider Knight)
Sorcerer gets 10% Random.
Witch Doctor nolonger needs lab (-> "randoms" x 3)
Black Sorcerer gets a second 10% random.
Soreceress should be guaranteed not-old, sacred, cost 165 gp, have a high MR (14) in spider-form, and not lose magic in spider form.

Animate Archer - D1F1, Enchantment, "Witch Doctors are eager to do favors for the unwary, but they carry a terrible price. In death, those who ask favors can be called upon to fight for the witch doctor. Many of these hapless souls are skilled with the bow."
Leaf Burner - F1N1, Enchantment, "The Witch Doctor can crown a warrior in burning leaves, incinerating his enemies who dare to come near." Gives nearby units Fire Shield.
Fearsome Presence - D1, Enchantment, Gives you Fear (maybe friends as well?)
Hunger of the Forest - N1D1, Enchantment, Sends a small spider (not the spider cav! small ones!) to kill someone for only 1 NG.
Hunger of the God Forest - N3D2, Enchantment, Sends a hunter spider to kill someone for 8 NG.
Wrestle Tikolosh - N4, Enchantment, You fight a Tikolosh (maybe you actually fight one?), Tikolosh is a one-armed, one-legged dwarf, with astral magic, healing, and assassinate.

Ghost Animals - N1D1, Conjuration, Makes combat-duration animals (they are returned spirits of the dead)
Roar of the Kings - F3, Conjuration, Makes a bunch of summer lions at the edge of battlefield.
Burning Ghosts - F3D1, Conjuration, makes spider-fire casters in battle, who then show up and do what they do.
Chameleon Spider - N3, Conjuration, They're sacred, they have glamour, they're not as big as hunter spiders, but they are even more deadly.
Return Sorcerer - N4D2, Conjuration, "When nearing death, a sorcerer of great power can consume vulture beaks, to ensure that he returns from the land of the dead in the form of a great spider with vast power over his forest domain. These ancient ones can be called back to the land to serve the Awakening God."
Return Sorcerer - F4D2, Conjuration, "When nearing death, a sorcerer or black sorcerer of great power can consume the skin of albinos, to ensure that he returns from the land of the dead in the form of a great spider with smouldering fangs. These ancient ones can be called back to the land to serve the Awakening God."
Return Sorcerer - E4D2, Conjuration, "When nearing death, a sorcerer or black sorcerer of great power can consume the tails of rats, to ensure that he returns from the land of the dead in the form of a great spider, dwelling beneath and command the bones of the earth. These ancient ones can be called back to the land to serve the Awakening God."
Call Kohdumodumo - W6D3, Conjuration, Only castable underwater. Summons a unique, amphibious dragon (a blue tarrasque, basically) with onebattlespell "Darkness", and a fair pile of magic himself.

MA Agartha - Needs a research bonus, needs some ability to use statues really early, needs a much easier time getting to Darkness.
Temperature Preference to Heat 1.
Earth Reader gets research bonus +2.
Golem Crafter gets a 10% FWED random, and the ability to freespawn (as an action, free of cost!) an attentive statue. The attentive statue spell makes a lot more attentive statues (varies with earth magic).
Oracle of the Ancients gets a 100% FWE random, and a *second* 10% FWED random.

MA Mictlan
+4 RP on high priest of the sky, +2 RP on priest of the sky.
Additionally, 20% chance of third pick on rain priest and sun priest.
Starting army needs to be unbugged.

Law of the Jaguar Toad - Conj 3, N1, 1+2/lvl Jaguar Toads for 2 NG.
Law of the Hummingbird - Conj 4, F1, 3+2/lvl Humming Birds for 3 FG.
Law of the Jade Serpent - Conj 5, W3, 2+1/lvl jade serpents for 8 WG.
Law of the Monster Toad - Conj 6, N2, 2+1/lvl Monster Toads for 4 NG.
Law of the Vision Serpent - Conj 7, S2, 1+1/lvl Vision Serpents for 6 SG.
Law of the Harpy Eagle - Conj 8, A1, 3+2/lvl Harpy Eagle for 6 AG.

Humming Birds fly and have a fire burst attack, but they turn into FR100%, magic-being sun warriors when wounded.
Vision Serpents are non-commander Couatl's with Glamour.
Harpy Eagles are sacred giant eagles.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

That sounds.. ambitious. I think that # of spell slots is really going to be a problem. I'd probably eliminate some of the national spells for Ulm/Machaka. I mean, does a single nation really need 15 national spells?

Also, I have already done a bit towards the MA Oceania problem in my UWGIM mod. If you want to, you can also furhter boost them by giving the EA Oceania summon for Cursed Queens. Feel free to take and edit the changes that mod makes.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Honestly, this looks like a content mod, not a balance mod, and certain aspects of it *substantially* change gameplay.

Also, one of the nations you're tweaking don't really need the help. I wouldn't call MA Mictlan weak *except* in the context of other Mictlans. It measures up fine against other MA nations. (In fact, some of the changes you're making will almost certainly make it OP, like the RP bonus - as if it didn't have an abundance of cheap mages).

I might steal some of your MA Agartha ideas though (particularly attentive statue related changes), although I think the most important first step is making attentive statues sacred.

I'm resisting the urge to make specific change comments for the moment.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

So you're basically removing all assassins from the game?

MA Mictlan doesn't need boosts.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

I suspect that 'commanders' doesn't include mages. If it includes national assassins, things could be interesting.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Obviously I disagree about MA Mictlan. It's not as weak as the other three nations on that list, I'll grant; but even with these bonuses it will still be somewhat weaker than Mictlan in either of the other two eras.

Gregstrom is right that national mages won't get retinues, except *possibly* for a few national mages which pay an unreasonable premium for high leadership - Abyssian Anathemants, Marignon Inquisitors.

I'm looking at the national assassins. Bane Spiders definitely get a retinue. Again, it may be resolved based on leadership - so the generic Ermor/Marignon/Pythium assassin would not get a retinue.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

How MA Mictlan matches up to EA/LA Mictlan is *irrelevant* to MA nation balance. MA Mictlan matches up fine to other MA nations, its probably in the top half of MA nations.

EA/LA Mictlan are arguably overpowered and should probably be nerfed. Raising MA Mictlan to their level is not a good idea.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

I'd suggest that MA Man's mages would all get at least one Warden per, if just for theme.

If you're giving Ulm all superior equipment...why don't you actually just plain give them the black steel items as armor? Is 23 some magic number that's impossible to kill? Even so, they'll only be invincible for a turn or two of melee before they start getting critted. No big deal. Keep them in Full Helmets instead of Blacksteel ones if you're concerned. No need to use up a bunch of weapon/armor slots when there are perfectly fine ones right there.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

You're correct that the balance vs. other MA nations is what is relevant, but, obviously, I think you are quite mistaken. I'm not particularly interested in debating this, but I assert that MA Mictlan is weak, compared to the balance targets for this mod, which are:
MA Ermor
MA Pythium
MA Marignon
MA Caelum
MA Pangaea
MA Vanheim
MA Jotunheim
MA Shinuyama
...

Therefore, I am giving MA Mictlan stuff to make it comparable to MA Ermor etc. My followup will be a balance mod intended to balance the "weak camp" nations in the late era (Pythium, Jomon, etc.) with the "medium camp" nations (Agartha, T'ien Ch'i), while allowing the "strong camp" nations - LA Mictlan, LA Ermor, LA R'lyeh are being left alone.

Regarding bodyguards being "thematic" - it would be thematic to buy Wardens and use them as bodyguards for Crones, but you will never ever do this for many reasons starting with: the Crone cannot bless her bodyguards.

Anyway, free bodyguards for Mages would make assassins useless, so very few Mages will get them.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

This seems simply impractical, given that I count over 30 new spells before even doing the #onebattlespell things for all the national commanders.

The Attentive Statue thing seems very weird. You're trying to make a level 0 spell that you can cast on literally turn 1(2 if you have to recruit a mage)...more accessible? Wouldn't simply making the spell summon 2+ do that? Or even just summon 3 instead of 2?

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

It's definitely *practical*, just a question of copying and pasting and looking up unit #s. Many of these new spells don't require graphics, or use existing graphics. I'm something a spell-modding Guru, I don't anticipate any trouble.

Q is - will it break the spell # limit or something? That I couldn't tell you :).

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

The spell limit is about 100 or something? Edit: 135 or thereabouts. You won't be breaking it yet, but you'll get pretty close pretty soon at the rate you're piling in the spells and effects. And of course the issue of using other mods at the same time will raise its head even sooner.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

I disagree. MA Mictlan > MA Marignon in my opinion, and probably Vanheim too.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Lolomo, also more powerful than Pan. Seriously, MA Pan is the worst Pan - really not seeing how they're that powerful. Probably more powerful than MA Caelum as well - MA Caelum is a middle-of-the-road nation.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Wait, Lolomo is a nation now?

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

whoops, la la la. I think I meant LDICesare, actually, I must be going senile or something. Probably should have been a colon instead of a comma too. Too late to edit. Blarg.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Nah, MA Mictlan is average nation. Sure, they have sacreds, but taking good bless kills so many options for them. D9W9 imprisoned Master Lich was somewhat a way to fix that in LR, but well, I still had problems :)

What I'd like to see for MA Mictlan is the way to play non-bless. Some troops that would let you expand. There are really good options for mid-game this way - flying communions, cheap researchers... but you just cannot execute it when your only option to expand is with sacreds.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

You can expand with unblessed jaguar warriors just fine, which should be great for early expansion. And the basic warrior units (the mm2 one with armor) is actually pretty good against indies. MA Mictlan doesn't need a bless to expand at all.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Agree with this. Another possibility are Moon Warriors. This is slower than Sacred Madness of Mictlan, but it works. And single major bless would be affordable with other possibilities.
***
Generally, this mod project has many beautiful ideas, but as far as I see using all them would make nations adressed in it just filthy overpowered.
Maybe testing would show that I'm wrong... maybe. Some of them would be interesting to see, though.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Hi, I'm curious if you ever got #onebattlespell Retinues working? It was something I was looking at myself, but I don't know how to get started on it, so I'm curious if it worked. Since according to the manual they need to be vanilla Dom3 spells...

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Yeah, lots of the more recent nation mods use them. Er, as an example off the top of my head, the Bretonnian spy has a retinue. (Bretonnia is a mod by Burnsaber, on the other forum; here is a list of Burnsaber's mods: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/...t=0#entry12232 ).

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Thanks. I'll take a look.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

I read somewhere that you can also have a 'retinue' that is recruited for free when you recruit a commander, rather than using #onebattlespell.

I can't remember exactly, but the process is something like giving the commander the attribute that creates freespawn and also giving it a #secondshape without the freespawn. What happens is that the commander is recruited and creates the freespawn during turn resolution, and then turns into the second form, giving you a one-time group of troops.

Re: MA Nation Balance Mod - Planning
 

Oh, clever. Nice.