Discussion on 4X games.
 

I'd like to start a discussion on 4X games, tell your opinions on the various 4X games you have played. My summary:

Master of Orion
Master of Orion II - Battle for Antares
VGA Planets
Star Control
Star Control 2 & 3
Space Empires III
Star Wars: Rebellion (Yech!)
Space Empires IV

I'd say that MOO2 was overall the best, if your a Bab5 fan or a Star Trek fan you just have to love this game.

SA 4 offers the ability to 'build your own' though, which is great fun for those closet game designers out there.

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'If there are gods, they do not care, and justice always goes to the strong. But know this - all that is done before the naked stars is remembered' - Klingon proverb, the Final Reflection.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I spent many many happy hours playing Stars!2 with a bunch of friends. At some point we were so good that one who spent more time micro-managing his empire would always win... this killed the fun http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif This and knowing the best strategies throughout, like if one gets Jihad missle Battleships ahead of the others, the game is pretty much over.

Anyone looking forward to Stars! Supernova? (if it ever gets released...)

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

yeah i've been waiting for it for some time now but it seems that they are having problems finding a publisher or something like that it looks like it's gonna be good though. Lots of ideas in there that i think that SE5 could "borrow" and use.

anyway on topic i never played any of the moo games but SE3 and 4 have been totally awesome. You won't get any better for your money's worth. Especially with the great support MM has given and the awesome fan base it has. The game keeps getting better and better. I also played sw rebellion a lot before se4 but that got old real quick although the battles were cool. And of course i've always played the civ games. They pretty much have the 4x mentallity. Can't wait for civ3 to come out at the end of the month. Again looks like lots of cool ideas that can be implemented for SE5 especially the diplomacy model.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gavin:
I'd like to start a discussion on 4X games, tell your opinions on the various 4X games you have played. My summary:

Master of Orion
Master of Orion II - Battle for Antares
VGA Planets
Star Control
Star Control 2 & 3
Space Empires III
Star Wars: Rebellion (Yech!)
Space Empires IV

I'd say that MOO2 was overall the best, if your a Bab5 fan or a Star Trek fan you just have to love this game.

SA 4 offers the ability to 'build your own' though, which is great fun for those closet game designers out there.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Original MOO is a pretty good game for it's time. The limited repertoire of diplomatic Messages is noticable after you've played for a while, and the limitations of ships -- all ships of a given clas move as a single stack in combat -- can get annoying, but considering when it was programmed it's a good effort. MOO II is just great in some areas but worse in others. The individual ships with shield facings and weapon arcs are a huge improvement over original MOO, and the highly detailed control in tactical combat is fantastic. The new technologies are pretty good but the absolutely rigid tech tree is not so great. The "little people" approach to managing planetary work forces is awful. It was lifted from Master of Magic, which is a good game but played on the scale of individual cities not planets. Why they thought that a feature from a fantasy game played on the scale of cities and even individual characters was a good thing to wedge into a 4X game I've never been able to even guess. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif I hope the "sliders" from original MOO come back in MOO III.

I tried to play VGA planets once or twice. It's too clunky to be played effectively from my experience.

I played Star Control II a bit. It's cute, but it's more of an 'adventure' game than a strategic game. The ship combat and technologies associated with ships are very limited. I have no experience with either SC I or III.

I've not played ANY "Star Wars" space game. And don't expect to in the future. SW games are generally arcade games, anyway. But the SW universe just doesn't excite me so I'd probably not be very interested even in a "genuine" SW 4X game.

SE II was interesting but I never quite got excited enough to register it. I discovered SE III just as the beta development for SE IV was beginning. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif SE III is a lot of fun. There is much more detail and flexibility than SE II or even most other "big name" 4X games like the MOO series. SE IV is an improvement in many ways, but many good features of SE III were not carried forward. The ability to retreat from combat, for example. Still, I have to agree that SE IV is over-all one of the best 4X games available. More detail in certain aspects of the game would help it a lot, though. "Conditions" on planets are too generic. There should be seperate weather/temperature, gravity, and radiation factors, like in MOO or Stars! And if only he could improve the tactical combat -- even a simple impulse system to control initiative and fire-order would be good. Shield facings, weapon arcs, and turn rates like MOO would be fantastic.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 15 October 2001).]

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

SE is by far the best. I have tried various othergames like that(too many to mention) But Se(both III and IV) remains my favorite. Fot stratagy, depth and customizing there is just no comparison

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

"I tried to play VGA planets once or twice. It's too clunky to be played effectively from my experience."

It was very easy to set up and play over the Internet, and played fast, and was the first game I know of that allowed custom races from popular sci-fi shows.

"I played Star Control II a bit. It's cute, but it's more of an 'adventure' game than a strategic game. The ship combat and technologies associated with ships are very limited. I have no experience with either SC I or III."

Star Control II had Xploration, one of the most realistic ever done in fact.

It didn't have any Xpansion, you had one homeworld and that was that. You had to do all the mining yourself, too, which was fun for the first 20 star systems, then you started yawning.

It did allow you to research new technology and build ships, only trick was they all had to go into your main command ship fleet.

"I've not played ANY "Star Wars" space game. And don't expect to in the future. SW games are generally arcade games, anyway. But the SW universe just doesn't excite me so I'd probably not be very interested even in a "genuine" SW 4X game."

Rebellion was horrible, the planet interface was archaic, and the only fun part, the starship combat in a 3D view with 3D rendered models, appeared thrown together and rushed into game release and lacked polish.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Uhm, there's more to 4X games than just space-based ones...
The best strategy game ever made, for me, is still Civilization II. And in a few weeks, after 5 years of waiting, Civ III is coming out ! I can't wait...all we had is Civ clones and ripoffs in the mean time (Call to Power, etc).

From the real-time 4x games I'd say I enjoyed Age of Empires the most....looking forward to Empire Earth !

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Would battles of desteny make it any where on this list?

All time fav. 4x games

Stars, MOO, MOO2, SEIV, SEIII, Overlord, Lord of the Relms, MULE, Star Control (2).

There was another game I used to play. Cannot remember what it was called. Came out in 96. You basicaly designed your ships and sent them out on patrols etc... You could really control them. Very detailed. Mostly space combat. I will have to look in the old game boxes for the name. I have tech tree infront of me but it has no name on it.. ( remeber when games came with tech charts... what I would give to see game shiped with the manuals like from the aces series or early janes games.)

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Inter arma silent leges

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

i have said it before, i will say it again:

Imperialism I and II, by FrogCity and SSI. Games for the Thinking man. empire building and warfare, with unheard of things like solid (bordering upon god-like) diplomacy and economic modles. sharp AI (SSI meets a 4x game, you know the AI has to be good) both strategically and diplomatically. it knows all the tricks and you cant get away with dicking it about like the unfortuneate AI in space empires (and civ, and alpha centauri..)

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"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

well if we're going down that path what about Europa Universalis. That is another great game and the sequal is coming out soon to. Should be even better now. Diplomacy is awesome i especially like the way alliances are done. I think thats the way se5 should go it would make it so much more realistic and make treaties so much more important.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Reach for the stars. (by ssi) Did not reach to far. And I have to say that the AI in space Empire IV is one of the best I'v ever seen. The best is moo. moo2 is alright but I think SEIV is better

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

And by the way Pustov and Pustov 2 are the same I just got stuck in some kind of profile thing whith a change off aderess and passworld so I got a new one

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the only good bug is a dead bug = Starship Troopers

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

"And I have to say that the AI in space Empire IV is one of the best I'v ever seen. "

Are you the Aaron's brother?

Although I admit that:
1) The SEIV AI was really improved from the original release.
2) Modding the AI scripts you can improve a lot their behavior.
3) The SEIV AI doesn't cheat.

Honestly, Pustov, I'm far to believe that the SEIV AI is one of the best... After hours and hours and hours testings SEIV AIs scripts, I still can feel the frustration, looking how dumb the SEIV AI can be.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Hrmmm. 4X games, eh? Let me think 'bout this... which ones have I played, hrm.

Civ II, VGAP, SMAC, HOMM III, MOO II, SE IV. Perhaps less true to 4X: Strategic Conquest, XConq, EU. Even less strictly 4X: the old BBS doors Solar Realms Elite and Barren Realms Elite, and the old Mac game Bolo, and Netrek.

Of those, hrm. Civ II was pretty good, albeit it had a lot of misfeatures that really, really irritated me (stubborn AIs that demand tribute from a position of weakness; blatant cheating; nonsensical air unit handling; broken GOTO...).

VGAP never grabbed me that much. Dunno why. Maybe because I was the only one who had even the demo on the BBSes I frequented, heh.

SMAC: decent, but far too much 'former micromanagement needed. Again, inane AI diplomacy and cheating, and too little thought went into the design -- e.g. airport equivalents, but they were basically useless.

HOMM III: better, but hero-chaining bothers me. RoE Campaign easy for a novice to get into.

MOO2BAA: Fun. The joys of ship design (read: interesting design. SMAC's unit workshop was largely a joke, relatively speaking.) And the delight of wreaking terrible vengeance for all those Antaran raids.

SE4: Fun. Complex and flexible, not that usual of a combination. AI diplomacy needs a lot of work, 'tho.

Strategic Conquest: Along with the original 'Empire' (mainframe-ish? 'A/a' for army, O for city, etc), granddaddy of many a nice wargame. Expand by taking neutral cities, and then cities belonging to others. Xconq owes a lot to it design-wise, but is far more flexible.

EU: OK. I eventually hated the interface and the diplomacy, however -- especially the asymmetry of bribery (how every pipsqueak country needs bribery to be your friend), the inanity of it all (e.g. being Austria and +200 w/ Spain, Spain not wanting to join alliance, but countries which hate me (-50 and worse) do join?), and the rather blatant AI cheating (e.g. fleets never attriting).

SRE/BRE: Not really 4X, but more Hammurabi-style. Grow your domain, develop it, form pacts with those on the same BBS, and go after other people. The theme lives on in certain web games like 'Utopia'.

Bolo and Netrek: Team-play games where you expand your territory for resources and range, and crush the other guy. Not really 4X at all, but fun. Both require good tactical skill to do well, and both are old games that survive to this present day.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

It's only as dume as you make It. The diplomacy is eratic and the combat system needs help. BUT the way the AI buildes colonies is impresive. Maybe It's because I can switch players in a game and see what they are doning that makes it so cool. I still think It's one of the best 4x games out there. And I don't concider Civ or EU To be a 4x game If they were then I'l agree with you.I'm not saying that the AI in SEVI is beter I,m just saying that for a 4 x game you don't have to worry about history and that there are not that many out there.

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the only good bug is a dead bug = Starship Troopers

[This message has been edited by Pustov 2 (edited 16 October 2001).]

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Out of all the games mentioned I'm surprised not to see "Star Trek Federation" (Well maybe not that surprised!)

Definitly a MOOII Clone but I believe it was the first space game to include the notion of neutral races. It also had an interesting combat engine. With all the talk of SEIV combat dificiencies, this one may be worth looking at for ideas. Basically you gave your ships a strategy to implement before each combat turn. The AI then modeled the combat in 3D and you watched it unfold.

Unfortunately the AI was not the best and repeatability suffered because of it.

Although I did have fun being the Ferengi and basically buying my way to the top!

If you like MooII and Star Trek it's worth at least a look see....

RhineStone Cowboy

" I don't do Wetwork .... um...Cheap!"

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I've played Moo & Moo2, but for some reason I enjoyed Moo better then Moo2, oh well, Civ and Civ2, Pax Imperia which I did like, However now with SE4, haven't played it since, The old SSI Imperium Galactica, the first one, was excellent in its time, Reach for the Stars, have the new remake but havn't played it yet, Europa Universalis I do like this one, waiting for II to come out, is interesting, has bugs & needs work but like the format, Birth of a Federation good idea just needs work, gets boring after awhile. Really enjoyed Star General by SSI only problem was buggy and I could never get the patch to load.. still, good beer and pretzel game if you can get it to keep from freezing up all the time. SE4 has become my favorite space game, Shogun favorite tactical game, with the tech of today look foreward to better & challenging games and am looking foreward to upgrades of SE4 and to SE5.

just some ideas mac

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 16 October 2001).]

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

The Best 4X games, IMHO

Reach for the Stars, orignal Version. Huge black hole for time and a decent eco system given the age of the game.

MOO, the original Version. (of course). Had all the elements, but its strongest points were ship design, tactical combat and tech.

MOO II tactical combat and ship design was great, but the eco was rather silly. See the little people commenents below.

Stars!. I found this gem while waiting for MOO II to come out. Its not for everyone, and has its warts, but there is simply so much to do, and once you understand how the whole system works, its tons of fun. For me, it qualifies for the biggest black hole for time award. When fans start using logrithims and calculus to deterime play strategies, that is proof beyond all doubt that people are hooked.

SEIV. Strongest points are the ship design and tech tree. THe eco system is a little blah. Its still worth every penny in my book.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
More detail in certain aspects of the game would help it a lot, though. "Conditions" on planets are too generic. There should be seperate weather/temperature, gravity, and radiation factors, like in MOO or Stars!
[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 15 October 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the conditions of a planet are determined by type of surface, gravity, temperature, atmosphere (The gases) and weather (Atmospheric pressures). Weather and atmosphere can be displayed as an unique factor, so i think that te minimun factors to evaluate a planet would be type, gravity, temperature and atmosphere (Gases + weather). I think it is possible to be a race that don't need to breathe (A crystalline race as the Crysolnite would be an example.They are inorganic.) but was born in a gas giant.


There was a game called Ascendancy. The most remarkable thing was the races, with very elaborated concepts, and the shipsets. There was also very logic and advanced technologies. A good game 4X game, i think.

What do you think?

By the way, i'm spanish and i have a question:what does IMHO mean? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shyrka:

There was a game called Ascendancy. The most remarkable thing was the races, with very elaborated concepts, and the shipsets. There was also very logic and advanced technologies. A good game 4X game, i think.

What do you think?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ascendancy. I spent one night, form 9pm to 8 am, playing Ascendancy non-stop. My wife was quite mad http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

The game had its charm, there really was something about it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif But, one night was enough to figure out that the AI sucked and the game had major bugs that were never fixed.

That game had great potential. But the attitude of the developers was just opposite to MM's. It's a real pity.

Still, that game had lots of fresh ideas and I don't resent buying it. You may laugh, but one of the things I enjoy is comparing ideas of different 4x games and the ways they are executed.

I even buy games sometimes just to "analyze" them and to figure out what they invented and how they applied the old ideas to their game. One remarkable game in that respect was SF: Birth Of the Federation. Lots of great ideas, but the implrmrntation sucked. Oh well.

Aub

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

FYI (For Your Information) :
IMHO means " In My Humble/Honest Opinion".

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Birth Of The Federation was a good game that I still enjoy playing. Rebellion I liked a lot, and will always consider to be one of my favorate games. Past that, only SEIV, MOO2, and Stars are all that I can recall playing.

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New Age Ship Yards

"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG

Borg Breen Species 8472 Cardassian Dominion STNG Ferengi Klingon Romulan
Trek Movie era TOS Illuminati Starwolf

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aub:
Ascendancy. I spent one night, form 9pm to 8 am, playing Ascendancy non-stop. My wife was quite mad http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The game had its charm, there really was something about it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif But, one night was enough to figure out that the AI sucked and the game had major bugs that were never fixed.

That game had great potential. But the attitude of the developers was just opposite to MM's. It's a real pity.

Still, that game had lots of fresh ideas and I don't resent buying it. You may laugh, but one of the things I enjoy is comparing ideas of different 4x games and the ways they are executed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes i do the same. SE4 is the game that best combines the 4X concepts, IMHO http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
FYI (For Your Information) :
IMHO means " In My Humble/Honest Opinion".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Dragonlord. I'm improving my english in this forum! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Buying SE4 was a really good idea! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Ascendancy, now that was a an example of game with great ideas produced by people who don't play their own games. It had one of the worst bugs ever. Ships used rather large amounts of fuel in battle, so economy of force was paramount, or should have been. The bug caused every friggin ship to lose fuel when one ship moved. In SEIV terms, it would be the same the supply use of one ship would cause every ship in the fleet to use the exact same supply.

The producers did put out a patch, but it was too little too late.

The game was a turkey.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I like playing the game SpaceWard Ho!
It is a fairly simple game that one could get trough a game in one Long day.
It has all of the 4X stuff. The ships look different, and it easly supports multiplayer on a LAN.
It even works in WIN 95 through WIN ME !
If you started out too close to an AI player you could even get Killed off.
I think it had a MAC as well as DOS Version.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Has anyone been reading the MOO 3 site? (heh... like anyone in this thread would NOT have been to the MOO 3 site!)

The more I read of the over-views, pre-views, official pronouncements and what not, the better it sounds. They seem to be doing everything right! MOO 3 might be the greatest game of the genre just like Civ 3 is likely to be the greatest of its own genre.

Until Civ 4 and MOO 4, anyway... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

The description of the new interstellar travel system sounds like modified warp points, btw. They seem to have no worries about borrowing good ideas from other games. They will have both the 'flat-space' model and something like warp-points in the same game. I wish MM would steal from MOO more shamelessly. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 18 October 2001).]

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I'm showing my age here but the original SSG "Reach for the Stars" pointed the way for contemporary PC 4X space games. In it's day, it was unsurpassed.

Its later reincarnations has shown how a system can be too ingrown. While the "RftS" by-word was simplicity, the ability of gamers has outgrown the level of simplicity maintained. SSG confused improvements with graphics so the later Versions are the same constructs with a pretty interface. We've gone beyond that and that's the point designers should keep in mind. Is SE4 as pretty as the latest "RftS"? No. Is it a deeper game? Yes. Is it more popular? Yes. We can then conclude that designers should concentrate on gameplay.

I look forward to MOO3. I know one of the people working on it and he does have a sense of balance.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

One of the best ground combat models which would work great for the SE series is the old Pacific War model by Gary Grisby. This classic was released in 1993 or so, and is now free for downloading at www.matrixgames.com.

Translating the pacwar model to SEIV (or maybe SEV&lt;g&gt; ), here is how I would approach it.

The basic ground unit would be a division. Of course, this name could me modded to pretty much anything, such as legion, corp, herd, or whatever.

Empires would raise troops from population (exceptions could apply of course for special races), these would fill the division� ranks. Equipment for the division could and would me upgraded; equipment would include troops personal armor, small arms, artillery, tanks, and so forth. The equipment would be produced similar to the way troops are now produced, but once produced, be treated like stored minerals.

This pool of equipment is directly from Pacwar and its cousin, War in Russia (also available for free).

Divisions would remain and not be scrapped to upgrade, but when ready, there would be an equipment upgrade. Of course, the training level would drop as the troops would have to be retrained in the new equipment.

Supply should also be critical for troops, and I would increase its importance for both ships and troops; not for micromanagement purposes but rather to give greater depth and meaning to the space combat. After all, the SE series is really about ship to ship combat. But I digress.

Ground combat should be designed to Last more than one turn, the average combat should be designed to take approximately 10 turns, provided the ground troops can receive both replacements and supplies. That in turn, results in fighting for control of the space around a planet becomes critical, cutting off the supply source would lead to a huge advantage on the ground. Of course, maintaining a tight blockade should be much harder than simply winning combat around the planet, and in fact, could give rise to a whole slew of new combats; blockade running.

If only I knew how to program.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Baron - I agree. I also like the advanced ground combat model. It looks like they took some of the better elements from the ground combat in Star General (my favorite aspect of that particular game). For SE5, I would love for MM to team up with one of the other engines here at Shrapnel (i.e. the War Engine or CC2 engine) for ground combat.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 18 October 2001).]

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

One thing I do like about SE3-4 series is it throws me back to the GOod ol Star Fire days... that was a pretty cool board game. I still like Moo2 and I am definately looking forward to Moo3.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

My very first 4X game was Reach for the Stars, 3rd Edition. It was probably my favorite computer game until I bought Sid Meier's Civilization.

I currently have installed on my harddrive:

Master of Orion (haven't played MoO2), Reach for the Stars (current Version), Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri/Alien Crossfire, and SE IV.

Games that aren't on the HD any more:

Civilization II, Star Wars: Rebellion, Birthright, King of Dragon Pass.

(All the non-space games might technically not be 4X, but they're still empire management, so I included them.)

All of these had their strengths, and the only one I'd hesitate to reinstall if I had the HD space for it is Rebellion, mainly because it's the only real-time game in the lot, which made it almost unplayable for me.

The one I play the most now is SE IV, with SMAX in second place. I rarely play MoO or RftS, but there are other non-4X games on the HD that I'd uninstall before those.

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

The only 4x game I would still consider playing other than Se4 is Birth of The Federation.
Unfortunatly I have not been able to play it since My house hold had a win 2k upgrade and it no longer works, but rumors are spreading that it will be able to work under Windows XP. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
BOFT is still one of my all time favourite games and sits up there with Total Annihilation for longest running computer games to sit on my computer http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ferengie are too powerful but in my opinion, especially if they are lucky enough to meet up with a few allies that they can buy out in the early game http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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CyC
The Person not the AI
L+++ GdY $!+ Fr+ C--- S* T!- Sf++ Tcp++ A? M++ MpM RV Pw+ Fq++ Nd+++++ Rp++ G

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Lately, I noticed another one -- "Dominions", by Illwinter. It's a 4X god game (Literally -- the objective is to be the Last major deity whom any province worships), with a pretty high degree of complexity (large magical system, item forging, god design, unit experience, et al). I think I saw a comparison to SE4 complexity in a Dominions discussion forum, actually.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I had the opportunity of Beta Testing SE4, and Birth Of The Federation. SE4 is now my favorite game. However, I still have MOO, and Moo2, and BOTF installed as well. I also like Pax Imperia 2.

Of all the games that I have played, and believe me, I have played almost all the 4x games to some degree. SE4 is by far the most customizable 4x Space game out their. If you don't like something in it, change it.

All the creative talents of new races have made this game by far a new game each time you start a new session.

I have counted over 100 new races player's have contributed to SE4. And more are being created as we sit here reading and typing! You can play your favorite SCIFI race. What other game can say that? This concept was built into the game! That's sooo cool!

I guess I am a fan of SE4, and the whole 4x genre. I can find something good in all 4x games. However, there are only a few that will wear out my mouse, and stay with my next computer update. Keep me from sleeping. Nuff Said!

The Betaman!

("Able to kill bugs faster that a speeding Patch!")

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I played Stars!, Pax Imperia 2, Ascendancy, Master of Orion, Master of Orion 2, Reach for the Stars (dont know the Version but it is C 2000) and Space Empires IV. In my option is Space Empires IV the best of all this games. My hope for the future is Stars! Supernova Genesis.

[This message has been edited by Schwarzbart (edited 23 October 2001).]

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I've been reading further in the MOO3 site. The discussions in the forums are interesting but reveal some not-so-good ideas for MOO3. The 'event management' system where you get events to 'play' against other players is weird. As someone objecting to it pointed out, it makes MOO into 'Magic: The Gathering' rather than a 4X game. So perhaps MOO 3 is not going to be so perfect as it seemed at first. But, they have made major design changes already. The "ethos" system seems to have been dropped, for example. I guess it was too complex. Or they discovered that they were trying to program something that people wanted to do for themselves, the 'role playing' of their races. I hope they allow this strange 'event management' system to be disabled, at least.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I hope they allow this strange 'event management' system to be disabled, at least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It does sound like a very good idea if applied to intel ops.
You'd send in your spies, and they would prepare you a "riot squad", or a big stock of explosives, or whatever.
They'll notify you when ready, giving you a "card" to play whenever you send the signal.
These should have a limited shelf-life, depending on type and the counter-intel of the defender. (eg. Supplies for a bomb op could be hidden longer that an stirred-up populace for a riot)
When triggered, they would have a chance of failure (or partial success), depending on counter intel, happiness, and troop concentrations.

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

A discussion of what is a 'strategy game' has started on Slashdot under the "Ask Slashdot" topic. The usual 'holy war' between RTS and turn-based games has broken out. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Anyone here have a Slashdot account? You can put in a plug for SE if you do. http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/10/26/1441203.shtml

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It all comes down to simplicity, the number of people that want really complicated games is not that high. Complex games have a small market. Some of the best times are spent playing drunken tetris!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LoL "Drunken Tetris".
I think I'll stick with SE4 http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

Space Empires IV was the Last computer game I purchased and that was in January. I do not see myself buying another game until Space Empires V. Enough said.

Captain Kwok aka Captain Spoogy

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"Reality is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there..."

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A discussion of what is a 'strategy game' has started on Slashdot under the "Ask Slashdot" topic. The usual 'holy war' between RTS and turn-based games has broken out.

Anyone here have a Slashdot account? You can put in a plug for SE if you do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've added a plug for Shrapnel in general and SE IV in particular to that thread. Now someone else should go mod it up. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Discussion on 4X games.
 

I read on the MOO 3 discussion Boards that space monsters have been dropped. Too bad. Not a major feature but a nicely 'distinctive' one. If MM would pick them up I bet it would attract a lot of attention from the die-hard MOO fans.