Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

I've got a commander with the Heroic Strength ability - with Boots of Strength, Girdle of Might, etc., his strength is above 40, and with Jade Armor, should get double attacks, correct? Oh, he has 1 level of Air magic for casting Aim too, so turning him into a super-archer seems natural.

I'm wondering which people would prefer - double Fire Bolas for four range 40+ attacks with Fire Bond effects, or a Thunder Bow for two attacks of 40+ AN damage (by the way, am I understanding how quickness from the Jade Armor interacts with missile weapons correctly?).

One more thing, I'm pretty sure an Eye of Aiming stacks with the spell Eagle Eyes. Does it also stack with the spell Aim (if so, my archer would have a precision of +20!).

Thanks

I would lean towards the fire bola(s) since the thunder bow only has 10_shots unless you know your enemy has specific fire resistance/immunity or an SC where lightning will work. It gives you the option to switch out one of the two fire bolas for a shield or other 1-hand weapon as well.

I wouldn't add an eye of aiming instead I would provide him a pendant of luck.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Doh! I shoulda seen the whole ammo thing. Certainly makes a huge difference in all but the shortest battles. I'll save the Thunder Bow for situations where lighting is more effective. On that note, looks like I need to design a team of 'caddies' - gophers who can carry the correct 'club' ("hmm, facing Abyssia today, looks like I'll need the Thunder Bow", or, "eh, Formoria? Pass me Vision's Foe, please!").

On a side note, can anyone tell me if the spell Aim stacks with an Eye of Aiming (if not, I'm really going to regret slapping that Eye in his face)?

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Aim and Eagle Eyes are spells that grant the same benefit (+4 precision), so they don't stack with each other. Eye of aiming may either 1) cause one of these spells to be cast at the user or 2) grant precision directly. 1) doesn't stack, 2) stacks. I don't know how Eye of Aiming works, but the manual lists if it acts as a spell IIRC.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Eye + aim don't stack.

Also, I thought aim and eagle eyes don't stack either but not 100% on that one.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Aim/Eagle Eyes grant +5 precision. Eye of Aiming grants +8 Precision and an affliction (One Eye) which gives -3 Precision and -2 to Att/Def. They're certainly not the same effect even though the net effect is pretty much the same. I don't know firsthand whether they stack with each other, although Aim/Eagle Eye almost certainly does not stack since one is just an area effect version of the other.

-Max

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

TwoBits, you should really consider trying both. I had a heroic strength guy, and I thought he'd totally rock with double Fire Bolas, and I even gave him an Eye of Aiming. I was really unimpressed. Usually he missed with the Bolas, and sometimes he didn't bother throwing them. So, I gave him a Thunder Bow, and he seemed a lot more effective in battle, every shot killed something.

Unless you're up against a horde of Mammoths or Elephants, I'd go with the Thunder Bow. A Boots of Quickness, double Fire Bola heroic strength hero could be good against a large number of Elephants, assuming he's not the only thing standing between you and the horde. In any case, don't wear Jade Armor because the weight takes away AP and most of the time you'll end up only getting one shot off.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

I was under the impression from other discussions that the AP needed to make an attack was based off of your actual AP. So if your base is 12, armor and whatnot take you down to 6, and then quickness gets you back to 12 again - you really should still attack twice a round if you don't move. Heavy Infantry with 5-6 AP in combat tend to attack every round if they don't move, for example.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

put on him TWO EYES OF AIMING. That should fix it :O

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Yep, that's what I thought, and I tested it out.

With a "Wand of Wild Fire" or whatnot, both Jade Armor and Boots gave double the spell casting.

With missile weapons, the unit would sometimes fire, and sometimes inch towards the target, eating APs.

5 round combat:

# of fireballs wearing boots of quickness: 10
# of fireballs wearing jade armor: 10
# of bow shots wearing boots of quickness: 8
# of bow shots wearing jade armor: 5
# of shots, wielding 2 bolas wearing boots of quickness: 14
# of shots, wielding 2 bolas wearing jade armor: 10

I dunno, maybe something was wrong with my tests.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Hmmmm. How did you script? I seem to get less of the "inching forward" effect if I Fire Closest. The 2 Bolas + Jade Armor result is pitiful though. And it makes me wonder if I should resurrect my thread that was trying to figure out if there is something wrong with the way that Quickness works.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Scripted 'Fire Closest'. Strength 25 units, at attacking edge of army placement setup. Defenders scripted to 'Guard Commander', also at attacking edge. Turning the grid on shows max 13 grid spaces from enemy army left-right, and 3 grid spaces up-down.

1st round:
Both casters cast double fireballs.
Both bows fire.
Bow units and bola units advance 3 grid spaces to enemy.
Boots bow fires again.
Boots bolas fire once.

2nd round:
Both casters cast double fireballs.
Both bow units fire.
Both bola units fire.
Bow units and bola units advance 3 grid spaces to enemy.
One bola unit fires.

I just can't get the archers to stop creeping towards the enemy, even the thunder bow units. Maybe because I'm using Golems?

But, like I said before, in an actual game I tried the Bolas and wasn't impressed, so I didn't do more extensive testing.

I think Quickness is working properly in that it doubles the base AP. But if your unit moves, he may not get in an attack if he doesn't have enough AP left.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

OMG I just wrote one of my typically long replies - and my mouse mysteriously went to the Post Reply button above, instead of the much stealthier Post Quick Reply button below. And of course, it ate the post.

To sum up my thinking - my best guess is that there is some sort of artificial "need to move" script involved with giving a unit Quickness. The act of casting a spell is supposed to override Quickness, so scripting to use the magic items bypasses that "need to move". Best I can come up with.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Very interesting results on how quickness differs with Jade Armor vs Boots. Hm, looks like I'll need a 'caddy' to come along, and try out the difference between Bow and Bola, Jade and Boots. Thanks for the tips, you guys.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

The armour and the boots ought to give the same exact benefit. Waterbless quickness, and maybe spell-obtained quickness should be different from forged-items quickness.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

The armour and boots give the exact same Quickness attribute, that's true.

If you wore the boots and some other heavy armor (Elemental), you'd end up with the same AP in the end as if you'd worn Jade Armor. The problem is that wearing heavy Armor subtracts from your AP, and Jade Armor is heavy. When you're building a missile dude, it's better to give him boots, because AP is used up if he moves at all towards the enemy.

The boots and armour effect is exactly the same effect as the Quickness spell: +100%AP,+3Att,+3Def. The W9-bless only gives you +50% AP,+4Def.

Here's a link to a previous analysis of quickness and AP:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...359#post579359

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Only use the Jade Armor on mounted commanders. Else, use Boots, spells, bless, or nothing.

<3

For a melee SC, I suppose it's somewhat debatable. If you expect him to be swarmed, the reduction in BAP won't matter, he should still get 2 attacks every round if he can make them without any movement. If they have to move at all, Jade Armor is just a bad joke. Remember for a non-mounted commander, he's going to suck up a LOT of fatigue from that as well. Suggest Soul Vortex or Relief in conjunction with that terribly heavy armor.

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

Jade Armor is fine for zero-encumbrance thugs that won't be doing tons of self-buffing, like Bane Lords or Poison Golems or GORed Gargoyles. A Black Servant could be good too if you pumped his MR to avoid banishment.

I don't like to give Jade Armor to mounted commanders because their HP is so low ... it doesn't take much to get whacked, and then you've got a good chance of those gems just falling down the drain.

Has anyone ever tried GORing a Troll Moose Knight?

Re: Fire Bola vs Thunder Bow
 

With 0Enc commanders, you only get the benefit of no fatigue. The Encumbrance value is still subtracted from their AP pool, so you still get the terrible synergy there.

I seem to remember I did a GoR on a Moose Rider once upon a time. It was just a screw around game though, and I don't think I even geared him out, I was just exploring GoR, seeing what kind of results I could get. I'm pretty sure he was worth the gems though, and would make a fine hanger for a suit of Jade Armor. :P