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Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
I would very much appreciate your help with this, please read on!
The rules for posting will appear below in the third post (second is reserved for future use). This post will be dedicated to the chart once results are compiled. Please read below, and then share your knowledge and experience so we can make this a useful tool for the continued growth of this community. <3 |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
(Reserved for additional stats as needed, see post 3 for posting guidelines please.)
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
It has come to my attention that there has been some slacking among the nations, some of them simply do not contribute enough to SP and MP gaming enjoyment. So to avoid downsizing, and make sure everyone gets the bonus that was promised, I would like everyone who is able, to provide evaluations of the available nations. The purpose of this is twofold, the first is to make an easy to use chart that new players can use to shorten their learning curve, and simultaneously hasten and ease their entry into MP games. The second is to compile the opinions of all of the more experienced players regarding relative strength and weakness of the nations, to highlight where IW could give a little love, in the interest of diversity.
Now, there are some rules, please read all the rules before contributing to the thread, though stray comments are of course welcome, evaluations need to adhere to these rules: First, we are not ranking in any attempt to make a top 10, or any other sort of arbitrary listing. There is no harm in 5 nations being tied for top or bottom, there are no winners or losers here. Second, I want informed perspectives only. Without a broad range of experience with different nations, you cannot expect to make accurate judgements about what weak and strong actually are. While we are not here to directly compare nations to eachother, the ratings are inherently relative, within the scope of the game. For this reason, I am asking that you not rate the nations of any given age unless you can rate at least one third of the nations within that age. Because of this rule, you are not expected to submit ratings for more than 1 age, if you are not comfortable doing so. Third, you may post if you only play SP games, there is no problem with that. Simply do not include the MP score on the nations that you rate, I won't hold it against you. If, however, you are posting MP ratings as well, I would prefer that you have an adequate body of experience in MP. I don't feel comfortable quantifying this, but if you have completed several MP games (win or lose) in any given age, and you feel confident in assigning some ratings, then please do so. Fourth, when I begin to compile the list from the posts (since I will be averaging results, I won't tabulate on the fly, there will be a window for posting, then I will compile the chart, with occasional updates over time), I will be looking for statistical deviations. I won't be looking for certain results, there are no right answers, but if someone posts nonsense ratings that don't coincide with anyone else at all, then their post will be disregarded. Now, each nation will be rated in 5 distinct categories: Early Game Strength Mid Game Strength Late Game Strength Ease of Learning (SP) Ease of Use (MP) In each category, I would ask that you rate the nation on a 1-5 scale, such that: 1 = Weak 2 = Deficient 3 = Adequate 4 = Capable 5 = Strong Feel free to post your rating in either 1-5 form, or using the first letters, W/D/A/C/S. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Late game strength is so subject to things like indy mage finds and how strong your early game has been...are we just assuming we only have access to national mages and a more-or-less even position with other nations entering late-game?
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
damn thats a lot of work just to make an opinion. Lanka EA 5 4 4 5 5 Tien EA 4 5 5 3 5 Hinnon EA 5 5 4 2 2 Niefel EA 5 5 4 3 3 Yomi EA 1 1 4 1 3 more late |
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Thank you for getting us started Chris. <3
I understand this process takes a lot of thought, and a bit of effort to contribute. But the benefit to the older players, is that if we get a good chart developed, rather than explain the same things to people in newbie posts all the time, you can direct them to this post for these comparisons. They'll get more information, and more accurate information faster, and save you forum posting time for more in depth questions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Caelum is a nation you should avoid playing as your 1st or even 2nd/3rd nation. Hence low marks in ease of learning/use, this is mainly due to its flying units take some getting use to, the early game use of mammoths takes practice as well and learning just how good your troops are in cold 3 dominion.
EA Caelum Early Game Strength 5 Mid Game Strength 4 Late Game Strength 3 Ease of Learning (SP) 1 Ease of Use (MP) 2 The great advantage EA Caelum has is Eagle Kings which is a excellent recruitable SC, with perfect paths for self buffing. It does however lack some magical diversity and requires luck in site searching unless you take a rainbow pretender. MA Caelum Early Game Strength 5 Mid Game Strength 3 Late Game Strength 3 Ease of Learning (SP) 1 Ease of Use (MP) 2 Ma Caelum is probably the weakest of the 3 ages, lacking the SC's of the EA and the better magical paths of the LA. LA Caelum Early Game Strength 5 Mid Game Strength 4 Late Game Strength 4 Ease of Learning (SP) 1 Ease of Use (MP) 2 I think LA Caelum is the strongest of all the ages, such a shame it shares the age with Ermor and Rlyeh. The Harab Elder is a fantastic mage with strong paths in A, E and D. This gives LA Caelum some serious power in the endgame which is lacking in the other 2 ages. The earth forging bonus is better than the MA's water forging bonus as well. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
For the two nations I've writen guides.
Arco MA EG 4 (elephants ftw, but you may have difficulties against some bless nations or awake pretenders) MG 2 (no easy access to thugs or forge of gem-economy items, correct infantry but need a lot of indie archers and mages on the field) LG 4 to 5 (depending of how many astrologers have survived, and if you have found indies mages completing the nation) Ease of Learning (SP) : 5 (you just trample everything with ethearal elephants) or 3 (if you try to use something else) Ease of Use (MP) : 2 (you need to master communions and script very carefully for each big battle, and diversify to summoning paths for late game ; gems may lack for that without some efforts to developp an economy) Utgard LA EG 4 with a good bless, 3 without (giants... but you won't have big armies of them) MG 5 (recruitable thugs, cheap researchers, nationals can forge clams) LG 4 (everybody have thugs or SCs now, and others have better MR than yours ; BUT you have access to the three most powerful paths for endgame to compensate, and probably an huge income from clams at this point) I would have said 5 without Ermor and Rlyeh in this age Ease of Learning (SP) 4 (you just kill everything with ethearal double blessed giants, but the cost of the troops may be a problem, and the nation is not as good with a weaker bless) Ease of Use (MP) 3 or 4 (not really hard to equip thugs and script mages to buff them ; but the transition to endgame may be painfull if you rely too much on your recruitables ones) |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
EA Kailasa
Early Game Strength 2: Your sacreds can do a lot of damage, but everything that has a bow is able to kill you. You have the worst PD in game, so it is of no use agains raiders. Mid Game Strength 5: Ghandaravas buffed with celestial music, are able to kill everything that is around in the mid-game, kailasa is easily the strongest midgame nation. Late Game Strength 4: Nice 4 armed SCs with good paths for buffs, access to air, earth, water, fire, death, astral and nature magic guaranteed by national mages or summons, but death and fire coming very late. SCs are lacking HP. Sacred troops still effective. Nice nation for clamming. Ease of Learning (SP) 3: sacred nation, but you have to place your troops right and use archer decoys to minimize losses. pretty much fixed research paths conj 6 for ghandaravas kinnaras then ench for arrow fend. Ease of Use (MP) 2: very versatile lots of possibilities strength is hidden. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
EA Arco 2 4 4 2 2
Ea Ermor 3 3 3 4 3 EA Ulm 2 2 4 3 2 EA Marverni 1 3 3 2 2 EA Sauromatia 3 3 3 3 2 EA TC 2 3 4 2 2 EA Mictlan 5 4 5 3 2 EA Aby 3 2 2 4 4 EA Caelum 4 3 2 2 3 EA C'tis 2 2 3 3 3 EA Pangaea 3 2 3 4 3 EA Agartha 2 3 4 2 3 EA Tir na Og 3 3 2 4 3 EA Fomoria 3 4 4 3 2 EA Helhiem 5 5 4 4 3 EA Vanhiem 4 4 3 4 3 EA Niefelhiem 5 4 5 5 4 EA Kailasa 2 3 4 2 3 EA Yomi 3 3 3 3 2 EA Hinnom 3 4 5 4 3 EA Atlantis 3 4 3 2 3 EA R'lyeh 2 3 4 2 2 EA Oceania 5 3 2 4 3 MA Arco 3 5 4 3 3 MA Ermor 5 5 5 4 3 MA Pythium 3 5 4 3 2 MA Man 3 2 2 4 3 MA Ulm 2 2 2 4 3 MA Marignon 3 3 2 3 4 MA Mictlan 4 3 3 2 3 MA TC 2 2 4 2 3 MA Mackaka 3 3 3 3 2 MA Agartha 1 2 2 3 2 MA Abysia 3 3 2 4 3 MA Caelum 3 4 2 2 3 MA C'tis 2 3 3 2 2 MA Pangaea 4 2 3 3 3 MA Vanhiem 5 5 3 3 4 MA Jotunhiem 4 4 4 4 3 MA Bandar Log 3 4 3 3 2 MA Shinuyama 3 4 4 3 2 MA Ashod 3 4 3 3 3 MA Atlantis 2 3 3 2 3 MA R'yeh 3 4 5 2 3 MA Oceania 5 3 2 4 4 MA Eriu 3 3 2 3 4 LA Arco 4 3 3 4 3 LA Ermor 5 5 4 5 5 LA Man 3 4 3 3 2 LA Ulm 2 3 2 3 1 LA Marignon 3 4 4 3 3 LA Mictlan 5 3 4 2 3 LA TC 4 3 4 3 3 LA Jomon 1 2 3 2 2 LA Agartha 3 5 4 3 3 LA Abysia 2 3 3 3 2 LA Caelum 4 4 3 2 3 LA C'tis 2 3 3 3 3 LA Pangaea 4 3 3 4 4 LA Midgard 5 4 4 3 3 LA Utgard 4 5 4 4 3 LA Patala 2 3 3 2 2 LA Gath 3 3 4 4 3 LA Atlantis 2 3 3 2 2 LA R'lyeh 4 5 5 5 3 LA Pythium 3 4 4 2 1 LA Bogarus 1 3 4 3 2 A few notes: *As Micah says, late era strength is rather arbitrary, it almost always comes down to how well the nations have done in the earlier stags, not theoretical late game nation power. *Ease of learning is also a bit arbitrary, some nations are cakewalk if you know basic bless tacics, but extremely challenging otherwise. *I assumed nation power relative to other nations in their era. *I was extremely tempted to put 6 in for some categories with LA Ermor/Ryleh, because as it is, it implies some otherwise powerful nations would be a one on one match for them. *I consider early game approximately pre-level 4 research. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Dear lord Quantum, that is quite impressive, and at first glance looks very well thought out, THANK YOU!
If a few more of the oldbies can do lists like this, we'll be looking at a good base for the chart. Everyone else contributes a few here and there to flesh it out, there will be a powerful reference for new arrivals to the game and the forums. And yes, before anyone says it, I know I am setting a bad example by not posting, but I started to get my thoughts together, and I realized that I've only gotten to the true "late game" a few times, out of literally hundreds of starts. Unfortunately I either find out too late that I've failed to pull my strat together, or I am just doing too well and get bored of stomping on the AI, so I start a new one..... |
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Interesting thread. Keep up the good work!
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I wonder why QM thinks niefelheim is 5-4-5.. I can see them starting very strong and getting less in the mid game.. but why 5 again in the end?
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Well, as I was saying, late game rating is pretty purely theoretical. However, niefel's commanders contribute more to the late game than most nation's- mages resistant to artillery, free SC/thug chassis.
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EDIT: ninja'd by quantum, and I guess his reasons wrong as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
MA Ulm: Early: 2 Middle: 2 Late: 3 Learning: 3 Use: 2 You'll need clever tactics to get to late game, and need Blood Stones to survive late middle/all of late. This drops ease of use, because blood hunting is boring. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
EA Ermor: 3 4 3 2 3 (Solid yet unspectacular early game with legionaries, nice communion battlemagic potential in mid game. Low max levels in S prevent it from being the late game powerhouse other S nations can be. Mastering communions and lots of low-level not easy to boost paths make it quite tricky to learn. )
EA Sauromatia 4 4 4 3 3 (Just plain solid nation, with a large variety of strong options in all stages of the game. It might be worth a 2 in ease of learning simply due to the large number of options available, but in the end went with 3 as whatever option you choose is bound to be at least decent. ) EA Helheim: 5 3 3 4 4 (Obvious early game power. They do have a good number of mid/late game options available (magma eruption, good A/D magic, powerful(flying) stealthy raiders, but a lot of it is capital only, lowering their rating a bit. ) EA Yomi: 1 4 3 2 2 (Easily the most difficult expansion of all nations I played so far. Mid game with recruitable Dai Oni and strong battlemagic is very solid. Mastering early expansion, figuring the best uses for the quite crappy military, and the many uses of Dai Oni make them quite hard to learn. ) EA Oceania: 5 1 2 3 3 (Amazing early game potential, but getting out of the water is an unbelievable pain in the ***. Their only saving grace past early game is easy clam-access. ) MA Ulm: 2 4 2 4 4 (Your troops are decent enough for expansion, but you have a number of vulnerablilities in early wars. Hordes of smiths spamming magma eruption behind a wall of steel make mid-game their day of glory. Late game their lack of magic diversity haunts them. The limited number of magic paths make them quite easy to use and script. ) MA Abysia: 3 4 3 2 2 (Solid and fire immune if expensive troops and fire evocations make for a decent enough early and mid game. Late game they can leverage the power of blood, but expensive & capital only bloodhunters and lack of other tricks limits them. Crippling capital dependance, old age issues, blood magic, and path boosting difficulties make this nation hard to play. MA C'tis: 2 4 3 2 2 (Recruitable everywhere marshmasters with skellespam and poison tricks make for a very powerful mid game. Late game marshmasters remain top-class mages, and shaman/couatls allow communions and astral tricks. The miasma makes it difficult to diversify their magic though (bringing their lategame rating down a notch) and also explains the low learning/ease of use ratings. ) MA Jotunheim: 4 4 3 4 3 (Easily massable sacreds for a potentially strong early game, cheap researchers, thugs and body ethereal in mid game. Somehow, despite having astral, death and blood magic I feel they slowly peter out towards late game. ) MA R'lyeh: 3 3 5 2 3 (Nothing extraordinary about the early stages of their game, but nigh on unstopable as soon as you get your Starspawn & cheap communion slaves going. Learing how to get out of the water with chaffy troops and communions make them not the easiest nation to learn. ) LA Pangaea: 4 3 3 4 4 (Two very different but equally nice varieties of sacreds and minotaurs make early game a breeze. Mid game your Pans can buff your very solid military to greater hights. High hp mages and troops and high MR are great assets for late game, but you lack magical diversity. ) LA Utgard: 4 4 4 2 3 (A very solid nation all around. Good sacreds, strong thugs, amazing cheap mages, strong communions, very decent S/D magic, and good blood access. LA Atlantis: 2 3 2 4 5 (Strong but resource heavy troops. Coupled with strong W/D mages and cold resistant troops they make for a decent mid game. Late game the mages high hp and high death magic are useful, but appalling lack of other options leave them rather weak. That same lack of options and obvious strengths make them easy to use though. ) LA R'lyeh: 4 4 5 2 1 (I agree with QM about giving LA R'lyeh a 6 for endgame strength. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Masses of freespawn chaff make for good expansion, and proper use of illithids and mages make early/mid game solid enough. Late game is ridiculously powerful, combining MA's magical power with virtually limitless chaff hordes - who suddenly become a lot more fearsome when massively buffed by your communions. Freespawn requiring two kinds of leadership, madness and large communions makes playing them a micromanagement nightmare. ) |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
A 4 for MA Ulm in MP? I would think they're one of the hardest to learn to use effectively and require quite a lot of micro, with loads of forging, necessary troop buffs etc.
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Nah, I don't feel that's the case. They don't need to forge more than other nations, they just do it a lot cheaper. Same thing with buffing troops. And you can give all (well, most) their smiths the same script and be effective. Nothing like the T'ien Chi hassle to optimize scripting for a gazillion different mages with 1000's of different possible spells to cast.
Incidentally Ulm was the first nation I played in MP. I used a rainbow pretender and got away with it. In the huge endgame battles against Calmons Ermor I first had to figure out what to do with the various indy/summoned mages, assign one smith to army of lead duty, and then just script 37x [summon earthpower, magma eruption x4] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That was the easy part. |
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Arco is clearly weaker between the moment when elephants become obsolete (because ennemies use MR spells, thugs etc) and when the level 8-9 extremely powerful astral spells are researched (and diversification to death or other thugs summons achieved). |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
MA Ermor 4 5 4 4 3 (in early game Ermor has to use a lot of commanders to reanimate ; and the kind of armies Ermor has become weaker in late game + 8hp mages are easily killed by mass spells ; so I only give a maximum note for MA Ermor in midgame, even if the nation is always strong)
MA Pythium 3 4 5 3 2 (troops are expensive for early expansion, then Pythium rocks, best defensive battle magic for armies, angels summons etc.. make it one of the best endgame nations) MA Man 4 1/3 2/4 5 3 (longbowmen/knights are excellent against both indies and AIs, but a weak army base against players as it's easy to counter them with decoys, I'd give MP midgame a 1 but a 3 against AIs ; as well in SP access to the fog warriors + rain of stones combo + air queen thugs are sufficient to make Man an AI destroying nation in late stage, but not at all to make it good against players) MA Ulm 2 1 2 3 1 (one of the weakest nations in midgame due to poor magic, for early game troops are correct but not that good, and vulnerable against tramplers ; if Ulm happen to reach late game and access to good thugs/SCs, forge bonus may be a consequent economical advantage, so I give it a little better note for LG) MA Marignon 3 2 3 3 4 (correct troops for expansion, lack of thugs or magical economy forge in midgame, angels and astral magic make endgame potential rather good) MA Mictlan 4 4 3 2 3 (sacred for expansion, good magical diversity for midgame, but not the best paths for late stage) MA TC 2 3 4 2 3 (mage based nation, troops are not great, profits a lot from high level research) MA Mackaka 3 4 3 3 3 (good sacreds for early stage but a little too expensive, then fire and earth magic are very powerful in midgame, and the nation also has good research and access to fetish hoarding ; but in endgame the lack of astral is painful, having death is good but not sufficient) MA Agartha 1 3 2 2 2 (fine knowledge of the national summons -some very interesting some extremely niche- is needed so I give it a bad note for learning/use ; the nation can be rather good in midgame and isn't completely desesperate in late game if they are well used) MA Abysia 3 4 3 2 3 (good early expansion with heat aura troops, then don't underestimate midgame power of fire magic, or late game power of demons -but lack of other tricks is a problem- bad learning note due to age problems) MA Caelum 4 3 3 3 (mammoths make for a powerful early games, mages for a rather good mid game and medium late potential -access to some of the best paths but with low levels) MA C'tis 2 4 4 2 2 (troops aren't very good, but having mages as good as marshmasters recruitable everywhere, powerful death and access to astral + clams forging, qualifies Ct'is as a strong nation for mid-late game ; vulnerability to cold and dominion killing your indies recruit make the nation rather hard to play) MA Pangaea 4 5 3 3 3 (good early game with a bless, excellent midgame with hordes of freespawns, high hp troops and some thugable chassis, medium late game, maenads are easily killed by mass spells and sacreds no longer important, but earth and blood aren't bad path) MA Vanhiem 5 4 2 3 4 (bless nation, become weaker over time, blood-air is not that interesting as the combo don't give uniques like blood-fire or water) MA Jotunhiem 4 4 4 4 3 (like Utgard except a little weaker in midgame due to price of mages) MA Bandar Log (never played no opinion) MA Shinuyama (never played no opinion) MA Ashod (not sufficiently played to have an opinion, except national summons qualify for a 4 or more in late game) MA Atlantis 4 2 3+ 5 3 (sea tramplers and access to the extremely good dagon chassis are excellent for expansion, but the price of non capitol mages is an handicap in midgame ; in late game correct astral levels and mages with sufficient hp to endure mass spells make Atlantis an above average nation ; excellent note for sp learning as AIs are unable to defeat sea nations, and Atlantis is the best to expand in both sea and lands) MA R'yeh 3 4 5 3 3 (high level astral mages with high hp make the nation insanely good in late stage) MA Oceania 5 2 3 4 4 (excellent for destroying other sea nations, then globally lacking, but massive clam hoarding can make it very powerful in late stage if diversification to astral can be achieved) MA Eriu 3 3 2 4 2 (medium nation, without the good paths for late game, rather easy to play against AIs unable to counter glamour) |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
I would give MA T'ien Ch'i rather 2 3 3 2 2 [or even 1 for MP micro]. The only SCs and thugs they can really access are Golems. I think that their mages are hardest to script. IF you want to make use of research you need to use communions as all your mages are low level. You have insane amount of randoms on your mages. For some of them you need master matrixes. You need to do a lot of booster allocating and swapping.
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Thanks for the support, Kris! <3
Originally I had wanted to score on 1-10 for this, specifically so that LA Ermor/R'lyeh could have some 10's, and then most of the other powerhouses would really be in the 8-9 range. I was convinced to allow it all to come out in the averaging, and just simplify the rating system to encourage people to take the time to post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Anyway, good work so far guys, I really appreciate it. If any of you are dragging your heels, remember, it may take you 15-20 minutes to post, it's going to take me hours to organize the data. If you want to just get your favorites down first, that's fine, you can edit your post later if you wish, I'm not doing anything with the numbers just yet. |
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Hum yes I translated early game by expansion/rush (with say level 3 max magic researched). Midgame by when you have several schools at levels 4-6. Late when you have several levels 7-9. Also I value more mass astral spells than midgame ones, even if the two are powerful, my Arco's peak would be just in the beginning of late stage, when first level 8-9 battle magic (will of the fates, master enslave) is reached.
But my interpretation is probably not the best as I feel like a note is missing for after. The end game (when you and all your opponents have most schools at level 9 and access to numerous tartarians able to cast spells like rain of stones) is very different than the beginning of late game, as human mages lose most of their offensive power. On the other hand calling "midgame" all the game between level 4-5 magic and the moment all magic is researched, would make hard to differenciate nations. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Well the way I looked at it is this (and maybe I should clarify in the first post) - early game is mostly indies, unless it is a nation that can do viable fast rushes in the first year, then you score accordingly. Mid game, you've researched first few key schools, cons 4 for blood nations, maybe fire arrows, mistform for SCs, whatever, the point being you've only accessed the first 2-3 pivotal spells for your strat, and you may be going into a real war at this point. Late game is not end game for sure, but would be the point where people are getting to level 9 in 1-2 schools (depending on strat and magic scale), and are starting to deploy late game summons, and introduce powerful rituals and whatnot, though such things are not saturated, nor commonplace.
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
I really appreciate the posts so far, but I'm going to keep this thread up top for a few more days at least. If you see the potential of this resource, poke your friends, they can post as few or as many ratings as they like, as long as they feed the beast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Rate some nations, you lazy sots! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
I'm content to lift the restrictions on # of ratings. Just give me some. It's hardly a compiled average if most nations are only rated by 1-2 people..... Doing this will save you time and effort explaining to new players which nations to try in order to learn the game faster. Also, it will entertain you, I PROMISE. <3 |
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JM,
I've enjoyed reading the posts but don't have enough nations under my belt for useful rating context. Interesting thread though. -SSJ |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Okay, in that case, with the understanding that the late-game numbers are quite fuzzy:
EA Agartha 2 4 3 3 ? (Have to learn national summons to play well.) EA Ulm 4 3 <font color="red">3</font> 4 ? (Piles and piles of excellent troops, have to learn to forge earth boots.) EA Helheim 5 4 3 3 ? (Easy to learn bless strats for the early game, harder to learn to use thugs and air magic. Poor research.) EA Niefelheim 5 4 4 4 ? (Easy to learn bless strats and skinshifters.) EA C'tis 4 4 5 4 ? (Excellent troops, pretty to learn some options for death mages. Have to learn to diversify in late game.) EA Yomi 4 2 4 2 ? (Oni Kings are easy, have to learn to use everything else.) EA Marverni <font color="red">3</font> 4 4 2 ? (Not everyone sees the potential at first. Read Baalz's guide for pointers.) EA Ermor 4 4 4 4 ? (Excellent troops + battlemages, like C'tis but with better diversity.) EA Lanka 5 5 5 4 ? (Early game bless is simple, blood magic more complicated later on.) MA Ashdod 5 5 5 4 ? (Excellent battlemages, good troops and PD.) LA Agartha 4 5 4 3 ? (Have to learn effective expansion strategies, and how to use national summons. Poor mapmove except for summons.) The average is high because I've mostly played with nations that seem strong and/or interesting to me, and I didn't feel qualified to rate those that I haven't played with. Even the nations that are rated low could be quite powerful in the endgame if you have a good gem/gold economy or branch out to other magic paths via your pretender/certain indies. -Max Edit: Revised Helheim's rating downward. Revised EA Ermor early-game rating downward. Revised Ulm slightly upward. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
A good idea, this - although I dont feel I've played enough different nations enough to rate the ones I have in relative terms to contribute.
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
It's been a while since I played...
MA Shinuyama 23432 : Just awful until you get a small economy going (easier said than done with their less expensive troops!), great summons mid/late but lack of astral hurts, can be difficult to survive at times. Really cool nation to play with though, one of my favorites. LA Man 1??11 : I couldn't get anywhere with these guys! Just terrible I thought MA Abysia 55334 : Strong early/mid, less so later, really easy to use, going to have to learn blood magic, not so much fun to micromanage that EA Ulm 45224 : Strong early, best mid, not many options late, there's some small intricacies to use them to their full ability, but not hard to be effective until late game just massing troops I have dabbled with others, but not enough to rate them. |
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I know the point of this thread isn't not to nitpick individual ratings, but it doesn't seem like some healthy discussion would do any harm.
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Anyway, I hope no one minds a little commentary, feel free to pick at my ratings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
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I don't mind at all.
EA Ulm has few options late game. Their mages can be difficult to get high paths for and they lack astral and significant death magic, and if your pretender can't summon anything powerful, those forged items don't really have a place to go. Their national summons are terrible IMO, and Troll King is about the best they can do without empowerment. I think they're a lot stronger mid game with huge stealth armies and good mass buffs on the battlefield. Flaming Arrows and Wind Guide are both 4 level research spells, which I didn't think was early game. I don't think they have a lot going for them. They've got stealthy heavy infantry that's kind of expensive and can't be blessed (or maybe they can since a patch?) because they lack a stealthy priest. The crones are old. Their national troops are nothing to write home about either. That's why I gave them a 1. You can average it out with somebody who thinks they're good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Maybe a little overboard with Abysia haha Demon Knights and their sacreds are pretty scary, and their assassins are pretty nice whether they're assassinating or just fighting. Limited paths on their mages and good fire boosters are a problem, of course. Yeah, probably too high. |
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Ah, could be! My fault then.
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Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
QM,
I'll note up front that I waited until Jim lifted the "experience" restriction until I posted. There's a lot I don't know about the game. Nevertheless: I see Ulm being quite strong early on because they have great troops, but as the game wears on that matters less and less. I'm less impressed than you are by Ulm's weak mages. Forge bonus is nice, but if you're just using that bonus to forge equipment to bring you up to the same level everybody else has naked I don't see that as much of an advantage. Ulm kind of peters out in my eyes as its troops become less relevant. C'tis has a strong expansion story in the early game largely because of the Elite Warriors and the charioteers. I do have trouble with them if I run into cold scales, and maybe I should have rated them lower on the "ease of use" because of that. But the troops are very good, skelly spam is easy to research, and Sauromancers are cheap. Perhaps I'm overestimating Marverni--it's been a while since I played them--but I quite liked their Ambibate Nobles and all the javelin-carrying troops. I thought they were pretty solid, especially after you cast Strength of Giants. Basically, "early game" to me means "before mages are really relevant." So my early game ratings are mostly about troops. -Max |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
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I also strongly disagree about Ulm's forge bonus wearing down with time. The late game revolves around thugs and SCs for the most part, and while there is little worthwhile to forge early, you are pouring maybe even the majority of your gems into it by the late game. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Ooohh, this is good, I like it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
You are free to debate these issues in this thread QM, it helps increase interest and overall accuracy. Just as long as you don't scare people off, but so far you come off as knowledgeable rather than arrogant (someone would have to be pretty thin skinned to make that leap with you, I think), then we're doing good things here. 8 ) |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
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I don't know, I find it pretty useful in conserving earth gems at least. The earth boots are pretty popular items for my mages. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
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Ulm's forge bonus is like a <font color="red">50%</font> boost in gem production relative to just hammers. That's non-negligible, but considering how little their mages can actually forge it seems more a midgame issue to me than a true lategame strategy. By the time people are throwing around Tartarians and Seraphs, how much does it really matter that Ulm can forge Earth Boots for 5 gems instead of 7? The lack of high-level mages and poor Astral/Death, unmitigated by access to good thug chassises, seems to me a serious weakness. Not that that has to stop Ulm. As noted several times elsewhere (including by yourself), the endgame ratings are iffy anyway because there's a good chance you can leverage a strong beginning into a good ending, and you can diversify your magic with indies or your pretender. -Max |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Indeed, there's always the "can" and "potential" factors. It's interesting when you isolate them down to their core, the "ease of play" takes a severe hit when you start to see that pretender choice is severely limited based on the needs of the stock nation, and that not taking the right pretender, will ultimately leave you noncompetitive. By the same token, all of the severely path limited nations can benefit greatly from various mage recruitment sites, but you never know what you're going to find, and for example I find it disheartening and almost insulting (in a lighthearted way) when every game I play an aquatic race, I find one of the sites (or 2, or 3) that let you train water mages.
And by the same token, while you can assume that you will find at least ONE special site of some kind, maybe it's a Conj bonus site but you're a blood nation, or it just lets you train mages of a path you already have, there's so many variables. Hopefully in the next few days, more people feel emboldened to post their ratings here. Remember there are no wrong answers, just maybe some that aren't thought all the way through, no one will hate for those, though they may ask you why you think that way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
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As far as the late game rating, the reason why for the most part I would not put much stock in it specifically because access to high astral/death is the sort of thing easily fixed by anyone. An additional 25% forge bonus (stacked with hammers and maybe even forge of ancients) on the other hand is one the very few things a nation can off that can't be reproduced. And it's hardly just earth boots, those smiths can get to probably half the most important bits of SC equpment- fire shields, marble armor, frost brands, boots of flying, resistance rings (also very important to protect against flames from the sky), etc. Anyway, my point was less how outstanding they are later, but just that they hardly go down hill. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Hmmm. A fair point. 4 is probably too high for Marverni's troops considering the competition. "Adequate" = 3 is probably more appropriate, since their elites (Ambibate nobles) are not deficient but not unusual outstanding for elites.
Of course, that means Agartha has to go down to 2. -Max |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
There is really a reason why only experienced people's opinions should make the real ranking. Even if there aren't so many opinions.
Marverni probalby scales 1-2 in troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That's as challenging as expanding with just LA Bogarus armies. |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
Some more :
LA Atlantis 4 3 3 4 3 (cheap sacreds and/or Dagon pretender + amphibiousity allow fast expansion in all directions, but nation become weaker in mid-late game due to weak mages and lack of diversity out of capitol, nation remain capable in endgame as capitol ones are tough and have correct death levels + access to interesting water-death summons) LA Mictlan 4 3 4 1 2 (bad learning note due to the sacrifice dom ; nation is strong in early game due to its sacred and in late with summoned demon uniques and unlimited slave income ; nation is weaker in midgame as blood researchs/hunting take a moment to pay) LA Patala 4 4 3 4 2 (elephants allow good expansion, mages are very powerful for late age, and magical economy is excellent, with easy forge of both hammers and clams - nation looks harder to play in MP due to the vulnerability of nagarishis against magic duel) LA Arco 2 3 3 4 2 (heavy elephants slow your expansion compared to ME ones, they remain as useless in mid-late game due to poor MR and aren't really harder to kill or better as you will have a 2 or 3 time smaller number of them -except if you sacrify a lot of points in production, but so you'll have bad other scales-, correct other troops and very diverse magic allow a rather good mid-late game, but the nation is far to be dominating -the loss of one astral level on the best mages is an heavy price for more nature and a weak access to death ; also 8hp and low def sybyls are easily killed by a simple earthquake ; I prefer by far ME for Arco) LA Ulm 2 2? 4? 1 ? (started several games with this nation which seem to have a rather good potential with its vampires and spawned wolfs, mix of heavy and stealthy troops, sacred and anti-sacred units etc... but I find it very hard to play, handicaped in research, and too much relying on its pretender) LA Caelum 4 3 3 3 3 (a medium nation, with good mammoth based expansion, but the lose of astral access is a big price for more death, and the nation is more capitol dependant than in other eras) LA Chelm 3 3 2 4 2 (longbowmen as less usefull in LA due to more heavy indies, rather good troops and diversified magic give the nation a good midgame potential, but mages are not really powerful especially for late game) |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
By the way, a quick test shows 23 F9W9 Helhirdlings get consistently pwned by the equivalent gold-cost of indy slingers. Marverni's slingers are slightly more expensive but still work better than the warriors, so if you get in a war with Helheim go for the cheap troops.
-Max |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
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Compared to most other strategies this is positively easy! |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
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-Max |
Re: Dominions Nations Evaluations ;)
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My roommate actually devoted several days of spare time to playing around with Bogarus (he loves all things Russian). He got a pretty efficient system going for expansion after a few tries. In a sense, I would say some of these nations who are considered weaker, it's less a nation strength issue, and more of an "ease of learning" issue. Unfortunately, a low ease of learning is usually a direct effect of a particular nation having less viable strategy options, whereas one big reason a nation would rate highly there is not just because they are strong, but because they have the tools that you can do reasonably well plugging in YOUR strat, rather than having to learn exactly how that nation plays, in order to prosper. And also bearing in mind that's why the ease of learning is referenced to SP (learning speed for beginners) while the "ease of use" is referenced to MP, where different factors come more into play. Taking that dual bless Helherdings vs indie slingers comparison, maneuvering small groups of extremely powerful units is much EASIER to do, than to effectively mount an army of hundreds of slingers. And while you are massing up the worst troops in the game, Helheim is taking territories to skew the balance of power. If you take territories with the slings, you will likely have significant attrition while he only randomly loses a troop here and there. Perhaps it would be best if SP and MP had their own strength ratings in addition to the ease of learning and ease of use. But it would all get rather complicated, and it's hard enough to get people to submit ratings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And besides, you long term vets who are hanging around here didn't peer pressure your old friends to submit ratings, so I had to solicit less informed players (like myself, I WILL post soon, it might wait til after my Luck tests though), and whose fault is that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif |
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