pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat talk
 

I'm gonna play midgard in a MP game and I've already decided I'm not gonna go for a bless strat (comments on that decision are welcome too) because IMHO the van's are a bit expensive and with them being capital only in the end the bless won't be that important for my game.

my idea's
I figure the shapeshifters are nice units (read that elsewhere too) and low on resources so I guess I'll start pumping them from the start. My few turn experience showed me the berserkers (einhere) are pretty resourse expensive but they do seem to break to indies without much losses so when I have low cash and resources in abundance I'll take them too. The rest of the units don't look that appealing really.
For research I'll take the volva (stacks with their luck ability), for combat the galderman though they will probably do a bit of both really.

The van leaders are a bit expensive and not that good in magic and a bit low on HP to be real good combatants, but they do have a nice high defense so I guess I can use em for that especially with larger armies, the magic is a nice addition then though I'm not that impressed.

I think blood will not be that easy to play so the blood seems a bit wasted though you are paying for it.

Now my real problem is:
I'm going to play relatively high scales in order, productivity, at least neutral in growth, of course -1 cold. probably neutral magic, I'm figuring that with the order (3?) and the volva I SHOULD take a negative luck scale.
(comments on this part of my thoughts are certainly welcome too)

For research I'll go for anything that disables missiles getting at my troops and direct damage --> evocation seems THE path I'll be using (lightning, thunderstrike, mist, storm if I can get some mage to A4, fogwarriors maybe even for the hardest fights later on (how to get a A5 mage though?) and then probably some alt, construction, conjuration etc (advice is welcome)

Ok that are my thoughts so far..

My MAIN problem is: what to do with my pretender, what sort of magic paths to choose?
-high death for some tartarians? (but who will GoR them?)
-Astral?
what can my pretender do? site search? summon later on?
<font color="red"> I need idea's for the picks on my pretender and linked to this I need to have a purpose for my pretender what should I do with it </font>
This usually is my problem I need midgard advice now but a general good advice on options there are wouldn't hurt either since it's often my problem

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat talk
 

Getting an air 5 mage is easy once you get A4 - both of the air boosters are at that level.

Will talk about pretender later.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat talk
 

Skin shifters are FANTASTIC units in my experience. You'd do well to plan your strategy around them. They are vulnerable to archer fire, so if you're up against the likes Man or Marignon make arrowfend, mist and/or storm a priority.

For pretender scales, maximize income, which is better done with growth (with its eventual population growth causing exponential income increases) then productivity. Order-3 and Cold-1, obviously. Remember, you're better off making skinshifters in mass then using resources on almost any other unit, except mages.

As for Magic, look to have at least A-4, otherwise the only way you can build air boosters and Staffs of Storm is through empowering or trading for a booster. N-2 is almost necessary as well, so you can build thistle maces as the best you can hope for is N-1 mages. Yet, if you're willing to go to N-4, just equip the thistle mace and you're ready to cast Moather Oak and Gift of Health. Gift of Health can be really useful as your skinshifters invariably pick up afflictions. While it is "possible" to get an E-2 mage, its unlikely. So I also recommend you get at least E-2 on your pretender for similar reasons. Death site searching only requires D-1, and it is possible to get D-2 mages, so your call. Obviously, for the end game its worth while to have a D-rich pretender for Tartarians, and you can summon in farie queen to GoR them. Of course, thats presuming you get to the end game.

As for specific models, try a Bridge Keeper (or something similar). He has a 50 patrol bonus and lets you raise taxes to help jump start your expansion. He also has Earth and Air Magic to help you get started. If not that, then maybe an Enchantress, whose Pearl income will help you kick off Astral site searching. ON that note, your Astral mages are great to stick into communions and use the spells like Solar Brilliance, etc. Or, if somebody tries hitting you with an SC throw some horrow marks on it. Obviously, air mages are best for lighting spells.

Hope that helps.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat talk
 

Yes I noticed I needed air 4 for the "basic" air boosters so I figured I would need that on my pretender. Thanks for confirming that.

The rest of yoru advice sounds good too.. N-4 and A-4 E-2

PS what do you think of the einhere OW? I thought they where pretty good as well.. (if you ignore the resource costs)

Anyway your basic "role" for the pretender would be to produce magic boosting equipment, at least to the level where others could take it over.

Arrowfend is a bit high up the enchantment ladder, but after I have evo-5 (storm, thunderstrike, mist) enchantment might be a nice way to go for the nature globals indeed.

What would your reseach path be? Evo first as is my idea and then enchant? Do you think conjuration is a good idea for me? I don't see that much good summons myself (unless I go for a high death pretender, and I don't think that it's worth it just for that. Even a low (4) one I'd boost a bit to 7 with the basic necro gear.

Which mages would you produce? btw

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat talk
 

I barely used Einhere's in the one MP game I played. Basically, it seemed like skinshifters outperfomed them in SP tests, and by focusing on skinshifters I could afford to take some sloth to get points elsewhere. It is really hard to exagerate just how survivable Skinshifters are.

As for the Pretenders "role", thats up to you. I tried a SC pretender and got her killed in the first fight against knights, so I'm somewhat down on that idea now. I merely offered those path suggestions as the obvious ways to make the most out of your mages. D-4 would probably be very useful, but its not needed to site search, and D-2 might be handy to KNOW you can build skull staffs (or maybe just trade for them), but unless you are using a Rainbow Chasis chances are you're giving up something to add a a death path to your Air, Nature, and Earth core. Could probably be done, but you might have to give up a SC chasis or Awake Pretender to do so.

As for paths, its probably situational. Thau-2 for Auspex, Gnome Lore, and Haruspux(sp?) obviously, but you're probably going to need to do a touch of manual site searching before hand to set up Gnome Lore and Haruspex. Beyond that, Evocation is very handy, obviously. Unfortunately, Thunder Strike is A3, while you're mages are only guarented A2. They can cast Stormpower to bumb it up, but only if there is a storm. Which means you need the proper evocation spell, or Construction-6. Beyond that, the really good spells are pretty spread out, Gale Gate is Thau-8, Air Queens Conjuration-8 (or is it 7?), Fog Warrior in Alteration, Wrathful Skies in Evocation, etc.

I don't remember the mages types off hand, but you have 2S and 2A2?. I focus on the latter, as to maximize the odds of getting a desirable combination, like A2E2, then add earth boots and you can summon a troll king, whose E3. Give him Earth boots and cast Summon Earthpower and you have an E5 mage. Lots of fun magic at that level. Or E2B2, which lets you summon Storm demons. I'd imagine with postive Magic scales it'd be much more efficient in research to get the Astral mages for research, but you'd still want to buy the Air Mages for diversification and battle magic.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

If you are creating a supercombatant for midgard, select a chassis and I'll give you advice. Not expert advice, but if you're short of ideas, I can give you a starting point.

Working from the Keeper of the Bridge someone mentioned, I'd be sure to get Alteration for mirror image and mist form. But those spells come with a built in fail point. So, get your defense up, or ironskin in. I've got some experience with the Father of Winters as a Supe that I'll post about a little bit later.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

This is not recommended, this is merely a sample pretender to demonstrate some principles for dom3.10 vanilla. You'll want different scales and dominion, most likely dormant. Maybe a different chassis. Anyways, I don't think Midgard is a nation that really wants for a supercombatant strategy.

Keeper of the Bridge, air 4, nature 4, earth 2. Awake, dom6, cold 1, magic 3, death 1.

At start, 80 hitpoints, 16 protection, 13 attack, 14 defense, 18 precision, 21 strength.
14 research, 3 encumberance: 2 basic, 3 melee, 4 spell

Spells of Interest

Personal Regeneration - The regen amount will vary based on your dominion (hitpoints boost), but you can expect about 17 hitpoints per turn in dominion 4. It only gets better from there out. Normally, that would cost you 40 fatigue, but it will work out to somewhere around 15.

Summon Earthpower - only interested for the reinvigoration, but 20 fatigue and one spell slot just for that? Better off forging.

Iron Skin - About 14 fatigue. Brings protection to twenty-six. Combines nicely with Regeneration.

Mirror Image - About 6 fatigue. Creates 8 mirror images. 8/9 chance an attack misses. Dangerous though- once hit once, its gone for good. Can be saturated.

Mistform - About 7 fatigue. Will fail if a). hit by magical weapon b). hit rather hard (after protection is taken into account, btw) c). fail 1% of the time on any hit.

Eagle Eyes, Air Shield- useful if you equip a bow, or if you're expectin missile fire.

The key thing to keep in mind about the air spells are the fail points. They're great, but high defense makes them even better.

Even with air shield, mirror image, and mistform, you'll die against cavalry, even if they're unable to deal you more than one damage.

I'd put my research into reaching alteration-3, then enchant-2, then construction 4. I'd send out my Keeper after alteration 3 was researched, but only against small, lightly defended provinces.

Construction to note:
Level 0- Sword of Sharpness (2H). At this stage I'd avoid shields and armor. The Sword of Sharpness has AP, attack, defense boni, and falls into your national gem income.
Level 2- Weightless Scale Mail reduces your encumberance even further. I'd avoid adding any encumberance yet.
Level 4- I'd forge the Girdle of Might for 3 reinvig. Without anything else but the above items, your fatigue will actually drop in combat.

There's a few more items I'd forge once the gems came in. Some its up to your choice, others, like the Boots of the Messenger are nearly essential. However, I suggested somethign well within your national gem income, 10 air, 10 earth.

Sample Script- Air Shield, Mirror Image, Mistform, Ironskin, Personal Regeneration, Attack

Cavalry has a nasty tendency of interrupting a long script. But still, with the above equipment and no support, positioned at the back of the screen, I can take on heavy cavalry. It might be best to cut that short, or change the order. If the mirror image blunts the first charge, than it does serve its purpose. Thanks to the Weightless armor, you finish casting with about 18 fatigue, going down every turn after.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Personally, I greatly prefer Einheres to Skinshifters. Skinshifters to me die too quickly for the investment. Against the majority of opponents (ESPECIALLY bow users), Einheres take a great deal of killing. They also have 2 weapons, which makes them great against chaff.

Basically, skinshifters are good against low-count high-quality armies. Einheres aren't bad against them, but they shine against mass armies of light troops. Against Ethereal/Glamoured troops, Einheres also have the advantage of more attacks to get through.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Skinshifters having trouble against archers?
You do realise that unarmoured units need to be shieled(via decoys) and/or buffed(storm, arrowfend, marble warriors ect) - you don't usually just throw skinshifters at the enemy without support.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Even when they get into melee, I find Einheres to be more effective. This is true especially if you have some way of healing their afflictions.

If you shield the Skinshifters with chaff, then you constantly have to replace said chaff. If you buff them, you have to replace the gems you use (I believe you listed nothing but gem-required battle magic; I realize there are others). I prefer armies that are more... self-sufficient.

Granted, Skinshifters allow you to take a Sloth scale whereas Einheres do not. I can't analyze that effect. But I guess my preference is that I like units that I _can_ throw at the enemy without support.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

at start you won't have much to buff, and probably not much to back up either.. though I figure buying a lil screen for cheap units could be an option... but that would be less skinshifters

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

my idea was

with CB mod (scales and pretenders)

great enchantress (the low HP pretenders are boosted in that mod) A4 W2 E2 S4 D1 N4 F1

dom 7
order 3
prod 2
cold 1
growth 2
misfortune 1
magic 0

I kinda like it I can search for most sites. I have the N4 A4 E2 and S4 for some end age fun with astral.. and she produces astral pearls so I think that won't be a waste..

should I change the D1, W2 and F1 for something in the scales (prod 3 or growth 3 or magic 1?)
or can I actually use those magic paths? (I think that having them for forging won't be bad but maybe that is not enough..

let me know whatever you think about this set-up

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

I tend to use the Einheres to shield them - they can take arrows nicely and rarely need replaced.
I'll make Skinshifters alot, but my spare resources tend to go to Einheres.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Shielding Skinshifters from arrows should be second nature for Midgard, without a doubt one of the best air nations in the late era. Furthermore, you WANT to cast storm anyways, as it will allow your A2 mages to power up to A3 to cast Thunderstrike. You have a natural a capital air gem income of 3, so you're just one 210 gold mage and Thau-2 away from site searching. Then, a single arrow will NEVER kill a skinshifter, just damage it. Unless the opponent can overwhelm you with arrows, your skinshifters will survive to melee, where regen and two forms give them a large advantage over Einhards, dual weilding aside.

@Azael, your scales look fine, but you don't mention whether the pretender is awake or not. Let me emphatically say that imprisoning your pretender is a waste if you want them to set up your boosters. Merely asleep would fine, though. The only suggestion I'd make is to go Misfortune-2 for Growth-3. Growth is funny in that the more you have, and the better your other income scales, the much more desirable it become to have even MORE growth.

As for paths, D1 on your pretender is almost certainly redundant, as you're almost gaurenteed a D1 mage (7/16 chance). D3 would allow you to do site search much more effectively, and with a skull staff you'll be able to build skull helmets, netting you D5 and wraith crowns, if you're considering thugs or SCs. W2 and F1 are judgement calls, as you will not have any national mages capable of using those gems, just indies or your pretender. Obviously, it will net you some different equipment and magic diversification is always a good thing.

Consider who else is in the game. For example, if Ermor's there, it might be worthwhile to get 1-magic just to make banning easier.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

ok thanks for the advice.. I've made my pretender...

Just one q. what does storms exactly do.. in the manual it says nothing of upping the air level?

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

The Air combat booster spell (Storm Power?) can only be cast during a storm.

Wrathful skies are also far more impressive during a Storm.

Directly, it grounds most fliers, weakens fire damage and halves precision.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

ah storm power must be what he meant.. I guess it's nice for large battles with loads of mages..

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Aezeal:

If you are getting ready for the Epotara game, be sure to take advantage of sailing. The ocean on the map is built for sailing, and I placed 3 sailing nations (Midgard, Marignon, and Atlantis) all near each other in the late era scenario. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Pasha

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

hehe first chance I get I'll take the water provinces themselves though

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Ok is there anything usefull midgard can summon.. When I'm looking I can't really find any reason to go into conjuration but I would love to know if I'm mistaken

I'd also like new advice on which 5-10 research points you'd make first and why...

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Well, Air Queens obviously, and earth troll kings. Also, summon storm power is incredibly useful for spamming thunder strike.

As for research priorities, one of my tricks for Midgard is to rush to research const-2 first, which let you build a bunch of research quills to get a boost in the early turns. Next in line is either evocation (for thunderstrike, mists, and storm). Of course, thau-2 will help you get an early jump on your air income with Auspex.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Thanks that is good advice.
Summon storm power + storm seems a bit.. expensive .. wouldn't getting the staffs be the better way? (const-6 woudl have to wait a bit for me though)

For my astral mages I'm thinking Thau -2 woudl be nice anyway though

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

If you're up against tramplers definitely rush Thau-4 for paralyze. As for the expense of casting storm, you are partially correct. Not only do you need the gems every battle, but it pretty much removes a mage from being able to cast thunderstrike multiple times. However Storm staffs are 25 air gems (though you can certainly use hammers to reduce that) and const-6. Spending the one or two air gems per battle won't be a biggie, especially if you started to site search early. If you're willing to spend just a few more air gems you can effectively quadruple your artillery (as only 1 in 4 of your air mages will have A3 off the bat).

Also, I forget what path Aim is under, but its very useful, especially if you're trying to neutralize somebodies archers with storm and mists.

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

Are the lower level thau spells not effective enough for mammoths and the like?

Re: pretender magic paths advice/midgard strat tal
 

I'm not entirely sure, but Paralysis is so overwhelmingly effective its hard to justify any other approach. Yes, you get mindburn at thau-2, but thats only 12 damage, hardly enough to quickly take out 20+ mammoths. 60 points of paralysis damage means roughly 30 rounds of not doing anything, and your astral mages can cast it with out any boosters. Another option is False Fetters (A2, Alt-1), but that has to be used close to the front and gives the trampler a chance to break it every turn, where as a paralyzed trampler is pretty much dead.