Putting together a megamod for a megagame (long)
 

Okay, so I want to put together a mod to extend the number of nations in play to the maximum limit - I believe that there will be 11 free nation slots after the next patch.

The 11 mod nations will have to be:
1) Chosen.

2) I'll need to get permission from the authors of the mod to abuse their work in every orifice.

3) I have to re-encode the mods so that they will all work at once and in conjunction with a streamers mod and a single age mod.

4) The national banners will have to adjusted up in size to match the streamers mod.

5) I'll probably have to trim down the extra black space on at least some of the custom graphics to prevent a crash.

6) After a period of testing and compliance enforcement on my own, I'll run a few MP games and get feedback. Since the megagames are not CBM, these new nations will be balanced in the absence of CBM, but I may use the CBM-ified versions as a starting point.

Anyway, name Mods that you'd like to see included in the package, respond and include more feedback below. If you are a mod author, give feedback on what you'd like to see done with the mod (i.e. can I include it, do you have reservations about my including it, etc.)

So, which nations do people want included? Here are my comments on the existing mod nations. Since I've got a limited number of slots, some of these mod nations might be combined together, especially if they are thematically very similar.

My prejudices:
* I prefer nations to be slightly overpowered than for them to be slightly underpowered. This is more of an issue for the changes I make then for the nations I pick.
* I prefer folkloric sources over more modern sources. I generally dislike stuff that is "generic", new nations should have a very specific schtick if possible.
* I prefer nations that play differently from the existing nations.
You'll see these prejudices reflected throughout.

... Preliminary Choices to Include ...
Urdheim - Nearly usable as-is.
Gaea - Needs to be strengthened, but I don't want to destroy the unique flavor of the nation.
Haida Gwaii - Is non-compliant in several respects, but . Probably needs to be strengthened.
Padmassa - Needs a lot of artwork. Will be dropped if I can't finish the art in a timely fashion. Heavily non-compliant but I don't need permission to fix it.
Insectoids - May be hard to balance.
Theran Empire, Horror Scourge - The horrors themselves are non-compliant (aren't horrors, don't see horror marking.) I think it'd be strategically fascinating to have a nation that was dependent on more compliant horrors (summons them as indies, sends them in remotely, etc.), so maybe I'll ***** at Amos until he lets me fix it. I love the artwork.
Carthacia - I might steal some units from the other hoburg mods if the author(s) don't mind. The trebuchet is non-compliant. Needs some balance fixes.
Kharamdzu - Resource and money bonuses in capital are maybe non-compliant?
Skaven - I haven't looked at balance/compliance on this one yet.
some vampires (Sanguinia or Therans, possibly a combination of the two mods if the authors agree to let me combine them).
some elves (Sylvania or Blood Elves, possibly combination of the two mods if the authors agree to let me combine them).

Other interesting possibilities:
* I also like Avernum, Arga Dis and Tharoon but that's too many slots http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. Arga Dis has a lot of schtick overlap with Arco and Tharoon with Patala, but they are certainly valid choices, especially if I decide that one of the nations above is unworkable.
* The trade confederation and magoserium mods have a similar schtick but are a bit thin. I could combine those. Tarent and the Commonwealth might also be worked in somehow.
* Sar Elad could get the various angelic crusade mod units as national summons (and possibly some as recruitables).

I have mysterious compliance rules that exist in my own mind and cannot be written down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
A mod nation is non-compliant if it doesn't hew to the general standards of existing nations in each era - UNLESS it deliberately doesn't as part of that nation's unique flavor. This mainly means I'll be standardizing prices, but I might remove recruitable siege engines (for example), or adjust the statlines on certain units, among many other things to make the mods "fit". This is distinct from game balance - a nation could be awesomely overpowered and still be compliant, or could be non-compliant in various ways but perfectly balanced.
A mod should also, from a backstory perspective, not directly contradict anything in the canonical nation descriptions, including (for example) redefining what a giant or a troll is.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (long)
 

Urdheim is a good choice. Skaven is good.

Sylvania is overpowered IMHO. May I am just bias because they crushed me like a bug in the Mods over Europe.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (long)
 

From what I've seen, Urdheim is considerably more overpowered than the CBM Sylvania you faced in mods over europe.

If you have that many nations, be prepared for huge quantities of descriptive text to be lost. The game can only handle so many extra descriptions.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (long)
 

I have no problem with you changing the mod as you wish and releasing it as a separate version.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (long)
 

And,...

You have permission to use my work as long as there isn't confusion between your version of it and my version of it. So any nation you use you'll have to rename or in some other way make clear that it's not the same as my one.

I don't use much in the way of folkloric sources for my nations though.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (long)
 

I missed this part:

I dont think that the combination is possible. We have a totally different vision of a vampire. Thats why my mod changes even the vanilla units.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

you knoooow if your looking to play this mega game with all these nations who wants to play the standard nations in this? you could edit current nations and put in some more custom nations.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

You have my permission to use Gaea and Haida Gwaii. I only ask that you use the same guideline that Sombre suggested; distinguishing between the two versions of the mod with a banner edit and a note in the mod file.

I filled up my "Free" nation slots fairly quickly with my personal projects. If you want to add more modded nations, you can eliminate certain nations and replace them with the modded ones. That was my solution. I eventually plan on consolidating the units from nations that exist in multiple eras in order to free up even more slots without losing the replaced nation's units from the game.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

You can't possibly have run out of unit slots. That's insane.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

I believe that Foodstamp ran out of *nation* slots.

There are possibly some nations that could be replaced, because few people want them - but the purpose of the megagame is to see every nation played, so I think it misses the point to do that. Descriptions show up in declaration-based order, I think - so I might just permute the order of declarations in the mod allowing everyone to see descriptions for their own stuff.

Also, the description overflow bug might be fixed in the next patch.

Reconciling the two vampire nations will require some work - especially as I will not be changing any of the existing vanilla stuff (although in the case of the over-nerfed dom3 vampires I think it would be a good idea, that isn't the point of this exercise.) Nonetheless, I could port some units and description from one nation to another fairly easily. The more material I have to work with, the easier it is to construct a balanced nation. If the result seems a little schizophrenic, there are several schizophrenic nations in vanilla (LA Marignon, LA Ulm) so that's fine.

Distinctive naming is also not a problem. The entire kabootle will appear only as a single unified mod file, so it should be fairly easy to avoid confusion.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

I really want to say "Include Tomb Kings!" - so I guess I'd better finish it!

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

Aye, I meant nations. I thought that is what I said too lol. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

I was just thrown when you said you'd move units around to free up more slots. Now I get it though. You'll make like a three ages of Ctis composite, or a MA Ermor and Pythium composite, freeing up more nation slots without losing lots of units from the game entirely.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

ja

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

The three ages of C'tis composite wouldn't be so bad.

An Ermor-Pythium composite would be farking insane http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

That said, for now, I will probably be making composites of the existing nations.

I'd like feedback on my first round of balance/compliance changes. This post will contain data on Foodstamp's mods.

Haida Gwaii:
* Replaced all "River Fortress" (admin 20) with "Tel City" (admin 40).
* Changes to commanders:
-- Eagle Talon is now AAAEE, 110% AEWN. Costs 300 gold (Grand Master, +10% for not being old and lightning res).
-- Voice of the Killer Wales is now WWWN, 100% AEWN, no research bonus, can sail. Costs 225 gold (Goetic Master, + for not being old and for water breathing.)
-- Coyote Mother's stats are unchanged, cost reduced to 150 gold (Mother of Avalon, plus for a priest level).
-- Kachina is now stealthy. Stats otherwise unchanged.
-- Toad Tribe Shaman now costs 75 gold.
-- If I can manage it, Sgaana Tyee will grant small number of units waterbreathing.
* Changes to National Summons:
-- Thunderbirds are now sacred, stealthy.
-- Frenzy of the Deeps costs only 12 gems, spell is level 3.
* General Comments (things I can't/won't do):
-- Shouldn't they have a spell that makes an Orca? Probably as a commander, maybe with death magic?

Gaea
* Misc Compliance
-- Gaea, just as a name, not so different from Pangaea. I'll use "Kishar", a sumerian equivalent. The nymphs can be renamed Asherites, and the dryads can be renamed Inanites. The ents are compliant.
-- The amount of nature needs to be reduced slightly. 6s on things is just a bit much. Single path kinda isn't viable. I'm going to reduce the nature on all the stuff by 2 and give them NESD randoms.
-- I'm going to add a bunch of vinemen and vine ogre related stuff, since that fits them into the game world as a distinct nation from Pangaea.

* Pretenders
-- World Tree is now NNE, domstr 4, and is free (as a game balance decision to encourage you to take it.)
* Starting Army
-- Starting army is now 15 sprites and 20 vinemen.
-- Starting commanders are now a nymph and a.... something other than an ancient.

-- To be continued --

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

This is a post for discussing the following mods: Padmassa, Arga Dis, Theran Empire, Sanguinia.

All of these are blood nations, several are blood/death or blood/astral or both, and that's too many, especially as four completely distinct nations. They're also all somewhat thin - several are not diverse enough to be competitive, I believe. One nation in three ages, OTOH, functions a little better, and 5/11 blood doesn't drastically increase the number of blood positions, as a fraction of the total. With this diversity of units to choose from, the positions should be tactically diverse, as well.

Thus you have EA Padmassa - The Black Coven, MA Padmassa - Horror Scourge, and LA Padmassa - Reign of the Vampiri. It's ESBD in every era, and makes sensical use of all of these units and artwork in only three slots.

The four clans from Amos' Theran empire would be retained, and the Argans would be added as an extra clan, maybe the Sanguinians are drawn from the same clan or maybe they replace one of those clans in the late era? I'll reread the flavor text and try to preserve as much of it as I can.

EA Padmassa would inherit a share of the units from every era, mostly with more primitive armor and weapons. The circle masters are experimenting with horrors and vampirism, in addition to the evil stuff I already have them doing.
MA Padmassa would get all of the Theran Empire and most of the Arga Dis units. The giant ogres from Arga Dis will be horror-infected somehow. The Argans are not physically afflicted like the other clans - the insidious influence of the horrors is what gives them their unique "personality".
LA Padmassa would get all of the Theran Empire units, most of the Sanguinia units and some of the Arga Dis units. The vampires will all be reconfigured to be conforming - only, you know, they won't suck.

To avoid confusion with the source material, I just call it Padmassa in every era. I don't care if people get my mod confused; given how long it takes me to do this I probably won't be able to maintain my version anyway.

Anyway, this seems like the best way to fit all these great units into a restricted number of slots and without including too many blood nations.

P.S. - I think that, at one point or another, that I got permission to do this from all the mod authors for this section, but I need to doublecheck before I proceed.

Also, it'd be nice if people were really, actually okay with this fusion, and not just "yeah you do what you want". I can work on this further if they feel that it doesn't do their work justice, or I don't have to include it, obviously.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

The Theran Empire and Arga Dis seem to wildly different thematically to work well as one nation to me - but that's just my opinion, you might be able to pull it off.

I would say Arga Dis is probably more "complete" than the others, and has quite a different feel. Kind of more bronzy.

Maybe I'm getting thematic feel and colours confused http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

Do you feel that "Reign of the Vampiri" is thin? How so? It has full complement of units, summons and national spells. What else would you add?

I have made the vampire mod because I found vanilla vampires unsatisfactory. I've made them as I thought they should be. If you change them the consistency of the mod will change. Sorry, but right now my enthusiasm for this change is at "yeah you do what you want".

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

At this point I think I'd prefer if you didn't use the name Arga Dis or the descriptions/names of the units, since the nation isn't going to be anything like the original. Do what you want with the graphics and other code though. I'll see how it all turns out in the end. Certainly sounds very different.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

No, LA Therans are not thin; especially as it is late age. MA Therans are thin - it's not a shortage of units, spells, or schtick, but of tactical options that concerns me. Anyway, if I add stuff to the MA Therans, and then leave the LA listing alone, it won't end up making a lot of sense - the Arga Dis and Sanguinia units actually work well in this respect with relatively few changes.

On the subject of vampires: it's entirely possible to make conforming vampires that are balanced. Once both sets of vampires conform to the same standards, the Sanguinian units wouldn't be a *problem*, and I like the cavalry (which are conforming since they clearly aren't vampires per se.) I'd also like to be able to mix and match the different thralls as a game balance issue.

But that's aside from the point; if you don't want me to do all this, I'm not going to do it - and don't be shy about telling me not to do so. I like your stuff and would love to include it, but as you can see there are many more mods than there are available slots, so there's no reason for me to redact anything from people who do not like me to mess with their work. It also frees up slots so I don't have to combine mods together, whereupon the redaction becomes obviously less extreme.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

I would like to see the final product so as to fully understand what you have in mind. Also, since you are not going to use the changed units from the vanilla you could use their sprites, if you like them. I've read the descriptions you have sent me, but again I'll be able to tell if the mod is consistent only after I see the final product. Though, at that point my input would be an input of just another player since its going to be your mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

I'm going to slighter alter what I said earlier; I don't have any objection to the use of graphics/code from any of my mods, even without credit. However based on what you're changing for this mod, I'd rather you didn't use the name Arga/Argan. THinking about it, unit names/descriptions like Gilgan, Sworn, Red Achillean etc aren't an issue at all. The only thing I object to is the use of Arga/Argan. You could change all cases of it to Sparda/Spardan or something. I dunno, it's your mod.

Re: Putting together a megamod for a megagame (lon
 

Don't expect me to get too picky on anything you change in my mods. I don't have time to play or mod anymore, so I just surf the forums in my free time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif