C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

What exactly is the deal with cold blooded and the miasma of MA C'Tis. I just started up a game with C'tis and picked out a high dominion awake combat pretender (Shedu), but then my pretender quickly got a disease. I checked and it wasn't during battle, so he must have gotten it from the miasma. Because of that, I went and looked through the pretender list for units that were "cold blooded".

To my suprise Wyrm wasn't on there, so just to test things out I started up a game with a Wyrm pretender level 10 dom and level 3 death. I've gone through about 50 turns without the pretender getting diseased. I also tried it with an undead pretender to the same effect.

Is the Wyrm pretender immune to the miasma effect even though he isn't listed as "cold blooded"? Are there other pretenders like this? Am I right in assuming that undead are not effected by the miasma dominion?

Jazzepi

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

It's the swamp survival that saves him. That works in place of cold blooded for miasma protection.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

As of at most two few patches ago, undead pretenders did get diseased by the
miasma. If this has changed, it's a very welcome fix.

In my most advanced game right now, the only thing that keeps my grubby little
fingers off C'tis's capital is the bloody miasma. Still, I love the idea!
I just wish there were more pretenders to choose from when you have MA C'tis.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I tested it again just to make sure. Took it out into late of the 5th year, which is way past 50 turns, and never saw any disease on my undead lich pretender.

Jazzepi

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Undead can get diseased but they dont lose health from it.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

The (master) lich is the wrong test case, because he is immortal, and
can heal afflictions. I tested it with a low death magic ghost king,
and sure enough, he was diseased on turn 4.

On the other hand, he is not getting afflictions or losing hit points,
so it's not the end of the world.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Yeah, disease has no effect on undead, so it's not really a bug. You can imagine that his dead flesh is infected - but he doesn't care!

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

It is annoying to see afflictions on all of your undead and have to verify it is just disease. I think it would be an improvement to eliminate the meaningless hearts the undead get that requires more micromanaging.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Actually that's a good point, I agree.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

That is a really good idea. It's so simple but makes so much sense. I feel dumb for not thinking of it myself.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

The progress page states that diseased has a new icon. Presumably this will make it easier to ignore on beings it doesn't affect (demons are also unaffected, as are lifeless beings).

So good MA C'tis pretenders include:
Anything coldblooded or with swamp survival won't get diseased. Wyrm, Father of Serpents, Lord of the Summer Plague, Mother of Serpents, Mother of Monsters, Green Dragon, Serpent King.
Anything undead, lifeless or demonic won't be affected by being diseased. Oracle, Sphinx, Fountain of Blood, Monolith, Prince of Death, Master Lich, Lich, Saurolich, Ghost King, Vampire Queen.
Anything immortal or recuperating will probably recover from the disease before it kills them, and eventually recover from any ailments it gives them. They may be inconvenienced for a while though. Phoenix is the only non-undead immortal available to MA C'tis.

That seems to me like it's actually quite a lot of pretenders (although obviously not all of them). Lord of the Gates, male Titan, Shedu, Mother of Rivers, Manticore, Cyclops, Red and Blue Dragons and most of the humanoids are vulnerable to Miasma and should probably not be chosen.

It might not hurt to give swamp survival to the Mother of Rivers, and maybe throw in a few more usable pretenders for MA C'tis (Moloch and Colossal Fetish would both be immune to Miasma and rather different from the currently available choices, for example), but they do have a pretty decent selection as is.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I do think it's silly the extreme number of pretenders that C'Tis has that can not survive the miasma. Though I guess you could setup a rainbow mage with twice born and teleport them into an enemy army where you have dominion.

Thank you for the exhaustive list Chris.

Tuidjy mentioned...
The (master) lich is the wrong test case, because he is immortal, and can heal afflictions. I tested it with a low death magic ghost king, and sure enough, he was diseased on turn 4.

I'm confused here. I thought a unit that's immortal would have to receive the disease affliction before it's healed? Does this mean that the master lich was constantly getting diseased, and then getting it healed before my turn even came up?

Jazzepi

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

It's conceivable.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Might be an idea to remove the pretenders who will get diseased from the selection screen for Ctis MA. Not sure about giving them more though, imho Miasma plus those already available should be enough...

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Oh, lately I'm threadmancing a lot.

Well, I've asked in the dom-II forums on a related thread and got no answer (duh).

So I'm asking here:
What could Ctis miasma summon safely (i.e. that won't get diseased) under their dominion. So, of course undead and inanimate or cool as well as lamias (cold blooded).
I'm not sure about the following:
Vine man/ogres and Ivy king
Tree lords
Elemental royalty
Abominations
Trolls
Farie court
Tarrasque

TIA,
WL

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I think anything with swamp survival is OK. Cold blooded might be as well. And undead are never affected by diseases. Not sure about elementals etc.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

So, I'll venture a guess:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Vine man/ogres and Ivy king OK
Tree lords OK
Elemental royalty OK
Abominations BAD
Trolls BAD
Farie court BAD
Tarrasque OK
</pre><hr />
I'd have tested it but it takes sometime to get to high level summons in a dummy game. Time that I don't currently have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Use DEBUG mod, it makes all spells researched and wish for 1S gem.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

That's a great idea. Could you please point me to where I could obtain said mode?

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I seem to remember elemental royalty getting diseased too in the miasma. I'm definitely not sure anymore though.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

WraithLord
Give up those summonings. You really don't need them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Vine ogres get diseased, but it takes them forever to die anyway.
Tree lords... dunno.
Elemental royalty gets diseased.
Abominations - dunno.
Trolls get diseased, but with the exception of moose riders they regenerate anyway, so its not much of a problem. I dont know why moose riders dont regenerate, since its riders HP that count, and riders are trolls.
Faerie court - gets diseased.
Tarrasque - probably doesnt get diseased, and who cares even if it does.
MA Ctis is just bad.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Fixed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I really loved playing MA C'tis. The atmosphere of the nation is just so right, and I enjoyed trying to find ways to diversify in spite of the miasma. Not to mention the fact they have quite some tricks up their sleeve.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

&gt; Trolls get diseased, but with the exception of moose riders they regenerate anyway, so its not much of a problem. I dont know why moose riders dont regenerate, since its riders HP that count, and riders are trolls.

Seems like an oversight.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

But there is no much fun when facing AI MA C'tis with all those poor indies recruited... Someone should tell them to recruit only swamp survival ones.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I think MA Ctis is ok. So long as you manage no to upset your neighbors with your dominion.

Same as there's a short list of recruits and summons available to Ctis, so is there a short list of recruits and summons who can invade MA Ctis with impunity. Those that can, undead and inanimates, Ctis has ways to handle. I'd say its a good turtling nation, but has a hard time diversifying, so its mid-end game is rather limited. That's way when playing this nation you need to plan ahead with this in mind.

ano, but if I give up those summons, how would you be able to use them as practice targets for your fire arrows?- Aren't you tired of piercing lizard scales already? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

MA Ctis feel may be very right, it may be OK for turtling in early game, but consider that

1) You have GREAT difficulties diversifying your magics. Most indie mages die in your dominion, so you have to provide them with rings of regen every time.
2) Your mages cant craft some of the most important items, so you cant really equip thugs or SCs.
3) You have bad battlemages. Dont even say 'sceleton spam', its too Domionion II. With 40 fatique per cast, marchmasters cant raise enough skellies.
4) You have problems getting half-decent SCs until you get to summon Tartarians. Raiders, yes. SCs - I dont think so. Also, see part 2 of my list.
5) Turtling only works early. Granted, you wont be a target of priority... but then armies get more expendable, and that disease effect kills really slowly. I played MA tis, I know. Of two really BIG (300+ units) armies that invaded my lands, hardly a single soldier died because of disease.

Now, the pros... Clamming. Thats it, I think.

P.S.
We'll see the outcome of your little struggle against Tien Chi. I think its going to illustrate my points better than words. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

P.P.S.
Back to the topic - poison immunity doesnt help against disease. Regeneration helps staying alive, but doesnt prevent catching disease. That much I've tested.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Absolutely. This is obviously the major challange when playing C'tis. You might also go for N4 on your pretender and give them shroud of the battlesaint. Getting the Chalice or Gift of Health will pritty much solve your problems, but other players will know that, so they'll try to dispel. It's also an option to go with a medicre dominion, and try to have some enemy dominion provinces on your border, and move all your indie mages there. This will cost you a couple of turns of movement, some mages will get diseased before reaching 'safe' territory and you'll also diminish the advantages the miasma brings, but it is an option to explore. Also, using them as battlemages if you're on the offensive will probably keep them out of your dominion. A rainbow god will of course help with the magical diversity too, allowing you to forge some key items, but on the other hand C'tis is also a nation that benefits from a SC pretender, so you'll have think hard on this.

Finally, the Miasma gives you up to 10% (if you go for heavy dominion) extra income, so whenever you loose an indy mage to disease you can console yourself with this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Mostly true. You have national access to some nice items (say, for example a standard setup of: frost brand, eye shield, starshine skullcap, hydra skin armor, boots of quickness, antimagic amulet, pendant of luck. Nothing much wrong with that) but it definitely narrows your options. I think it's quite important to take some earth on your pretender so you can at least forge a few hammers, and later summon a troll king court or two so you have reliable earth access. The trolls will get diseased, but with tons of hp and regeneration at least they'll survive.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about the chassis? I don't see much difference between C'tis and other nations here. Just about the only SC chassis that will get diseased are the elemental royals.
I agree. The disease effect is more of a deterrent than anything else. You can truthfully point out that any armies your opponent uses to conquer you will vanish, wheter you win or loose, but unless you are truly evenly matched it will work to slow to help you survive.
Now, here is where I totally disagree. First off, skellie spam is quite good, although you do need to attain enough critical mass for it to be effective. One or two mages casting fireballs will make something of a difference in a medium sized battle, two skelliespammers won't. But make it 10 on each side, and the skellespam starts to look a whole lot better. I do agree they're less good at this as their EA or LA brother though. More importantly: Foul Vapors at Ench 5 is the spell to shoot for as MA C'tis. It does work a bit slower as the other battlefield destruction spells, so towards end game it looses its relevance, but it does make for a very powerful mid game. Your lizards are poison resistant, so with the appropiate spells (conveniently in enchantment too) you can immunize them. And those skeletons you were spamming before are now the ideal delaying tactic for the poison to take effect. (And, guess what? They're in enchantment too. ) And as we're talking about enchantment anyway: That gift of health I mentioned before? Yeap, that's here too.

They can also cast the various other useful death and nature spells, (I especially like cloud of death for them, again with the reasoning that your enemy will be busy embroiled in melee with all those skeletons, and poison cloud/breath of the dragon) and 1/4 can communion master if necessary. And to top it of they're one of the very few MA races who can recruit their main mage everywhere.

At the same time they have the lizard shaman who are not only efficient researchers, but, headed by couatls, also make for powerful communion potential.


I'm not argueing that they are a powerhouse nation, the miasma does indeed hurt too much for that, and they have a number of challanging difficulties to overcome, but they do have their strengths too, and calling them "just bad" is doing them injustice imo.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I think seraph and chayot also get diseased.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Lets see. Frost brand is not armor piercing and its AOE doesnt affect undead. Sometimes its a really big downside. Hydra skin armor and boots of quickness means death from encumberance unless chassis is undead. So your options are REALLY limited.

Bane and Bane lord are rather weak and cannot teleport. Golems are possible only if you took a rainbow pretender. Elemental royalty is also something you will never get with your national mages. Blood magic is also very tricky for CTis, so no devils. And no national summons.

Thats theory, right? You look at the race and think - wow, they can do this and that!
So we agree that skellie spam with d2 mages is ineffective unless you field lots of mages. And then your enemy might bring along some priests... But still yes, in a very big battle your mages can skellie spam. But then, somebody might think - hey, he brough 20+ mages! Where's my rain of stones?
Also, I have tried foul vapors and skeleton spam in a really big battle. I even had darkness there. Well... darkness and skellie spam by 40+ marchmasters was just scary. Foul vapors DIDNT TO ANYTHING. They are just TOO slow, 95% of the time battles dont last that long.

Thats hardly an advantage because they are also a race that needs lots of mages on the battlefield to do any good, as we agreed.
I like the plural on a summon that costs 40 nature gems. You also want to cast Gift of Health, equip thugs with hydra skins and eye shields and probably make clams, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ok, I'm not saying they are hopeless. Just mediocre. I can see how they can become very powerful in the endgame with a good pretender design and lots, LOTS of luck.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I don't think you can immunise lizards with the appropriate poison res spells, since the ai refuses to cast +50 res spells on units with over 50 poison res. It does this to avoid going over 100. If however the spell gives poison res 100, then it works fine no matter what the poison res of your units.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Most of C'tissian infantry have 50 poison res so AI should cast Poison Ward on them.
If I understood you right, Sombre.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Well, yes. Obviously on a chassis that has encumberance problems you'd pick other items (boots of the messanger for example). But yes, you're limited (if you don't manage to find a way to diversify ). You do have a good base setup, but can't adapt to many things your opponent might throw at you. Another big issue you didn't mention is that you can't really get fire/lighting immunity.

Oh, I see. I was too hung up on looking at summons that would be affected by miasma as opposed to what you are able to summon with your national mages. Again, I mostly agree, though I have to say that I'll take a bane lord over a golem any day of the week.

No, it isn't. I used Foul vapors to devastating effect time and again in the game I've played as C'tis. Worked absolutely awesome. Depeding on the opponent I did set up far back with all my troops on guard commander, so they didn't come within reach of the enemies evocations.
Well, that's not unique to C'tis. Any race with human-sized mages is in danger against rain of stones.

Just the opposite. If the mages were capital only there'd be no way to get the necessary number of mages in the field. Being recruitable everywhere gives you the possibility to 'out-mage' your opponent.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Well, depends on the size of your empire. I meant one Couatl per really big communion you assemble. (I'm talking Master Enslave size, smaller spells such as will of the fates can just be cast by the shamans themselves) So probably no more than one or maybe two for this purpose unless we're talking about deep endgame large empire struggle for world domination scenarios. It's also a pity the couatle can't equip rune smashers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now, instead of mediocre, say "A nation with a number of challanging difficulties, that requires planning and thoughtful play to get the most of" Sounds a lot better doesn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

I never noticed any problem like this. Granted, most of the time I just cast the battlefield-wide version, which definitely worked fine. I can't remember any issues with the smaller area versions, but it is possible I just didn't notice it at that time. (Or forgot between then and now. )

The marshmasters themselves have 75 poison resistance, but the regular troops and most commanders just have 50. I'm not sure how that influences things.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Chayot has secondshape so can almost ignore disease--if anyone ever manages to kill you you'll come back with (sometimes) fewer afflictions. I recently killed a Dai Oni prophet with one eye only to have his spirit rout off the field with no afflictions. I did him a favor by killing him! Chayot is like that, x3.

-Max

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Kuritza - I think his point was they are very cool, and they do have tools that can be effective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I can't count how many times a tactic has been suggested to me, and my experience with it was not very exciting, or I have tried something new that seemed to work great, and other people shot holes through it.

I don't think anyone said MA C'tis is going to be in the top 3 "most likely to win" MA nations, only that they are fun to play, and very interesting and flavorful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Changing MA Ctis in a way that will allow them to branch into blood (not too easily though) would go a long way to improve MA Ctis mid to late game.

This may be unthematic though, so I'm not sure I like to idea.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Giving any nation a 120gp, sacred B1 mages would go a long way to improve its mid to late game. It'd be an easy enough mod, but I don't like the idea in base game.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Make it 180, non sacred 2 sorcery radnom pick, this way it will be a tough decision whether or not to diversify into blood.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Mmmh I can't see those lovely little lizards sacrificing people http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Joking, but even I have doubts on the thematicness of C'tis going into the blood magic :\

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Yes, maybe going into blood via a recruitable mage is too far a stretch thematically. But how about it giving them a conj. 5 summons that costs about 30D to get an undead Pandemoniac. The spell description could relate to the history of wars vs Pangaea and the newly discovered costum of reanimating the Pandemoniacs in ancient battle fields.

The undead Pan should get something like 3 B/D picks, or 2B+1D fixed paths.

sounds better?

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

30D means you wont have enough hunters anyway. For such price, you can just as well summon lamia queens and pray you're lucky with random picks.

&gt;&gt; Now, instead of mediocre, say "A nation with a number of challanging difficulties, that requires planning and thoughtful play to get the most of" Sounds a lot better doesn't it?

Lets make it 'nation with a greater-than-normal number of challenging difficulties, also known as handicap' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Good point about price, so conj4, 15D Ctis unique summons, summon "longdead Pandemoniac", gives you 2B+1D mage.

It will present MA Ctis with an interesting mid game choice, either rush up enchantment tree for pale riders, rigor mortis, life after death and what not, or rush conj and divert a substantial amount of D gems for a future investment of blood economy.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

There are not many ties between Pangaea and CTis, in my opinion anyway. Perhaps these summons may be some remnant of Sauromatian past?
CTis was probably contributing to Ermorian campaigns when Pythian swamps were conquered (at least its only logical that Ermor would use its lizard auxilaries in a swampy campaign). And there were these twisted death/nature mages, much like Sauromancers of old, but also skilled in blood. Perhaps their wicked souls still cling to their mortal remains in the swamps, heard by Marchmasters of Ctis.
Something like a Witch King revenant , 1d + 1B + 1?BND
And, well, Conj 4 seems a bit too low. Its comparable to Specter, after all.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Or you could just not give Ctis blood :]

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Ctis is hardly underpowered. That said, they do need alligators in their swamps for thematic reasons!

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_gator_deer.htm

This is NOT a huge gator though. Only 12 foot or so. In the 1800's in Louisiana Gators reached 20 feet in length. In the times of MA Ctis, who can say how large the Gators may have grown?

Of course huge is a relative term. If you were in the water and it was staring at you, I am sure it would look enormous.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

Crocs, people, crocs for C'tis!!!

NOT gators.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

There are no crocs in the Miasma. New orleans is the Miasma if there ever was one. Our swamps have gators, not the wimpy crocs. Crocs are longer, but a Gator is much thicker and broader.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

To be honest, this thread intrigued me. I think I'll try Miasma again when I can to check some ideas.

Re: C\'Tis - Miasma, Question about cold blodded
 

My work here is done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif