Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Preface: MP newbie, never made it to the late game yet.

So, in the 62 person megagame and just imagine I accidentally survive the first set of territorial rushes, establishment of borders, diplomatic russian roulette and make it to the mid-game.

I've got my borders set, good income over a moderate upkeep (holding a good sized stick just in case), good gem income compared to the rest of the board, and good research relative to the rest of the board, site searching is complete and I'm allied or NAP'd with all my neighbors. What to do?

I read somewhere that you should have a late game strat pretty much thought up before you start the game, and continue working towards that. Well, with little MP experience and zero late game experience thats tough as the little MP experience shows that SP tactics don't survive long.

At peace, so obviously research as much as possible. But to what? Rush to const 8 to start nabbing uniques? Rush to high Conj for uniques? Rush to high ench to try to get early gem producers up/GoH? Research evenly across the board? Curtail research to prevent "threat"?

Bulk up militarily to the point where monthly net is way down and then fabricate a reason to attack someone? Try to keep upkeep low and just maintain a defensive force to maximize monthly net income? Since at peace, try to actually kill off troops to reduce upkeep?

SCs/Gems - try to start summoning/equipping SCs for future combat? Save up gems to keep options open items/summons/enchants?

Primarily what to do when currently surrounded by friendlies, but knowing you'll need to expand at some point.

eek! fun though, very fun

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I think you need a very good gem income by the time you reach late age. Ideally you would want one or two of the gem globals going, but I think that is going to be hard because you have 61 other nations trying to do the same thing.

If you are surrounded by friendlies, you will need to make one of them "unfriendly" and take em out! Or I guess you could teleport to an enemy province, build a castle and establish a beachhead and wage a war from there.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

In very general terms, it has been my experience that having high-level construction is very important for the end game. Building equipment for SC's, forging unique magical items... these are important. Certain specific items, such as The Chalice, Sceptre of Dark Regency and others contribute to late-game tactics like Tartarian Summoning. Other, such as The Sword of Auregelmer, are generally just good items to have.

A healthy gem income is useful... in such a large game, I wouldn't focus on trying to get the gem globals... too much competition... focus on site-searching and diversifying your magic.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

In the greater available experience:

with an open enchantment board, is it better to cast a gem producer as early as possible (use almost all your gems) hoping that it will take long enough to dispel that you make your investment back. Or save up to 100+ and try to make it difficult to dispel?

Later castings you'll start playing with trying to make it stay up, but for the first is the risk worth the possible return?

And on the other side, once an enchant goes up - should it be first priority to figure a way to knock it down? Just so the benefit doesn't snowball for the caster into beefed up future castings? In a larger game, do you find that people will generally let an enchant stay up because:
They don't want to be the ones to waste the gems dispelling
they want to save their gems for other things
they may not have the paths to dispel/recast

There was a game a bit ago where Jot put up Astral Corruption... and it seemed the rest of the board couldn't group to dispel it, does this happen often?

I guess it comes down to, is it best to just take what early slots you can afford and hope for the best? Or save up for a hopefully difficult to dispel cast.

Especially in larger games

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I always wondered that myself. In my first game one of the first globals to go up was Gift of Health, and I was so surprised that it stayed up until I cast over it as I was getting taken out of the game.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Astral corruption is something of a special case because it is a blood global enchantment... because it is easy to get a large number of blood slaves in a short time, blood enchantments may not be worth spending a large number of astral gems to dispel if the blood caster can just put the same spell back up in the next turn.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Generally speaking the gem producing globals, gift of health and any other non-offensive globals will stay up. At least until someone wants that particular global for themselves.

Dare to cast forge of ancients, burden of time, utterdark and astral corruption will put you on no.1 most hated list. This will usually result in alot of people ganging up on you to dispel the global and generally slaughter your nation.

Of course in a 62 player game the chances of keeping a global up are alot lower, so globals might not be a good strategy until over half have been knocked out.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Interesting.

If the situation is that my old folks are getting crippled and I just want GoH up to slow that process down... would it help to say that out loud? For example "want GoH up for my old folks home, it was cast with 51 gems at lvl 5, dispel as needed?"

Just in the sense of reducing perceived threat? Cuz it seems a good portion of diplomacy deals with perceived threat vs. realistic threat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Which is a whole other topic, both defensively and offensively.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

It depends where we are in the game. If it is late game, I will be thinking to myself "he is summoning Tartarians."

Generally speaking, in a game so large, I think it would be wise to not focus your strategy around anything unique, such as globals, artifacts, and unique summons. Globals can be dispelled and artifacts can be wished for. Uniques summons are a bit harder to get rid of, but with 61 other people out there, certainly some them will be clamoring for the exact same stuff as you.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Jutetrea, saying that you cast it with 51 gems is just begging for some-one else to cast it.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

In most games your big concern is finding out who your neighbor is. In a game this large, you want to work very hard at finding out who your NEIGHBORS neighbor is. Who is on the other side of your worst enemy? Keep in mind the adage "my enemies enemy is my friend". Even if you dont do full alliance it can be important intel to know when someone is attacking him on the far side drawing his big armies away from you.

Also do alot of research into who has what gems, and what commanders. Especially what mages they have. Not with the focus of meeting them in battle, but with the focus of meeting them in the trading market. It might be a factor on whether or not you attack them when you meet them if you feel that they will be powerful trading nations later. Trading mages can be especially powerful for late game.

Consider before you put lots of PD into a province that you plan to build a castle or lab in. You cant remove PD. PD can count against you when you work with allies. It can work against you in lab provinces that you will use for trading mages, or in castles province that you might want to setup to allow an allies army to move safely thru your area and help you out.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Good points, in the ones I have played I've made it a point to get as much intel as possible as to what is going on in the world. Who borders who, who's attacking who, etc Trading information. In a huge game that would be a lot harder to handle, and will probably come down to the 5-10 nations in the surrounding area. So I definitely agree.

That would be the point Shovah, only reason I would ever say exact gem cast would be to reduce percieved threat. They KNOW exactly what it would take to dispel it and it would then just be a matter of whether they wished to or not. Less of a threat than an enchant that may cost you 80 astral to dispel and then fail or not knowing if you wasted 30 gems. If I was actually putting it up for the reason I said, then I'd be fine with it getting dispelled if I felt it paid for itself. I would be annoyed if it was next turn, but that would be the risk weighed vs. the benefit of reduced threat.

is it common to trade mages? Charm and hellbind? or vacating a mage producing site province?

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Yeah, I'm kinda curious with this mega game to see if there will be a level of gem pooling to get certain globals up. Nobody in this game is going to cast Burden of Time without using a ridiculous amount of death gems...but it'll benefit a certain set of nations regardless of who casts it so it'd make sense to poll for donations just like is usually done for a dispel. Same goes for Utterdark, Astral Corruption, and many others. My guess is the non-threatening spells won't stay up long, not because they're dispelled, but because the five global slots are going to be fought over by large power blocks for globals that benefit more than one nation.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Interesting, I had not thought of that, in theory the 3 Mictlans nations along perhaps with other blood nations (Abysia?) could form a gang and get astral corruption up with huge amounts of blood slaves. Making it undispellable and crippling 2/3'rds of all nations. Eeek http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif thats scarey...

I agree completely with your 2nd point Baalz, those 5 global spots are going to be fiercely fought over.

Probably, better to gem spam in secret... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Its been common in my larger MP games. And not because I initiated it. I find that many of the veterans do some trading along that line. Of course there is eq trading also which I meant to mention but everyone thinks of that. They dont often think of straight gem marketing or commander trading. I also saw one game where a person created quite a market selling SC's. Summoned, altered, then sold or traded.
Yes it usually involves some sort of conversion spell.

@Baalz (and others)
Most of the predictions about the game really need to wait and see. But from what Ive seen in big games, defensive agreements are much easier to arrange than offensive ones. In other words, a destructive global cast with XX gems is fairly easy to arrange to get broken with a pool of XXX gems. By the time someone can cast a destructive global with XXX gems, or enough that a shared effort cant afford to break it, its usually so far into the game that its not some sort of unusual event. That nation is powerful enough to deserve to keep the spell up. IMHO opinion there doesnt need to be enforced balancing of such things with mods and such since I feel the game would have balanced it on its own by being large and many nationed.

But.. come to think of it.. a game using all of the nations with all human players is new territory (even for me). Having multiple beneficiaries does bring up an interesting point. Whether or not the beneficiaries of a global can pool more than the ones hurt by it is something I hadnt considered.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Sorry for not being constructive but (I)n (M)y (H)onest (O)pinion opinion dosnt really work Mr Parker.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

marketing fairness and willingness to micromanage may be a definite factor. Some folks just don't want to deal with it.

I think the 62 game is going to be crazy no matter what. My main questions concern this game, but also what might apply to other late game strategies. The info on globals is definitely interesting, and I'm curious how much unit trading goes on. Seems the easiest, especially early is to trade provinces that produce indys.

How about perceived threat vs real threat. I've asked the question before because I think its a huge part, but have gotten some good responses so want to see if there's more info to be had.

Is it ever good to curtail research, site searching or expansion for the cause of portraying yourself weaker then you are? Leave indy's within borders unconquered, site search slowly even though quicker searching allows better accumulation, purposely stop recruiting mages to curtail research, stop recruiting troops to keep the army #'s in check, etc? I know this is related to score graph games primarily.. but it also can be taken as what you can say during negotiations, etc.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

General principles of negotiation say it is better to appear strong than weak. However, it's bad to appear DANGEROUS. Some people are so terrified of Niefel Giants that they won't rest until Niefelheim is extinct. I suspect that e.g. Marverni can get away with pulling ahead on the research graph where LA R'lyeh could not. You might try combining an appearance of strength with NAPs with your weaker neighbors; assure them that you'll be going after somebody else if they'll consent to support you with some minor tribute. Paradoxically, paying tribute could make them feel safer (as long as it's cheap) because it gives you a reason to want them around. If you phrase it nicely enough they might even think you're spearheading an alliance.

-Maximilian

Edit: another way to make people feel threatened is to keep them in the dark. Conversely, it might be useful to provide strategic information to your tributaries when you extort money from them. "Player X has 300 Z units parked in provinces A, B, and C. I want to build 200 Ys to attack him. I need an extra 200 gold from you to make this work." If you've done things right they'll be eager to be helpful as long as you can protect them from retaliation by X. If you wanted to you could also lie about how many units are involved to make yourself look bigger and tougher to your tributaries. Of course I would never condone outright lying but maybe Yublub the Old Old One, Dweller in Everlasting Burnings has a different perspective on the matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Who would volunteer to actually CAST Burden or anything else similarly nasty though? Sure you can find 15 nations to kick in some gems for it, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to be the one to put a bullseye on my forehead by actually casting it, since nations 1-14 get the benefit from it as long as nation 15 can manage to keep a single mage alive...so basically until his entire nation gets destroyed by his PO'd neighbors.

AC is going to be inevitable, I think, because of the amount of blood nations. It might not always be up, but I think it'll reappear even if it gets taken down...If a blood nation is up against the wall getting some slave donations to cast it will probably be easy, and if they already look like they're going to be taken out casting it and holding out for 10 turns or so seems like a real possibility. Looming Hell less so, but I think it'll end up going up and staying up since it's not a large enough AoE for it to be a dispel target. That's 2 of the 5 slots gone.

Blood overall will be weakened a bit since the SCs will get spread out all over the place though, although the same goes for the royalty...

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Jutetrea, I've found its much more often the case that it's better to appear powerful than to appear weak. Unless you're in first (possibly second) place by a good bit, you're more likely to be ganged up on because two or more of your neighbors think that you'll be easy pickings to their combined forces. True, you don't want to shoot out way ahead of everybody else unless you're ready for the attention, but definitely don't retard your growth for the sake of appearing non-threatening. Much better to be feared than ignored....

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Micah,

I think that everyone is overestimating an overwhelming smackdown on the caster of anything nasty. Certainly nobody (smart) is going to cast something that is likely to result in 4 of their neighbors declaring war on them, but this fails to take into account that depth of consideration that would go into that casting. Perhaps one of your neighbors is tightly allied to you, and though he isn't a big fan of Astral Corruption he's not likely to attack you because you're helping each other out a lot, particularly if you give him a warning it's coming. Maybe another of your neighbors is already engaged in all out war on the other side of his kingdom. Maybe two more of your neighbors aren't near strong or bold enough to attack you, and maybe your last neighbor is a blood nation. This isn't really all that out there, it's just all about looking for the right opportunity...

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Hmm, I would think ideal position would be top 3 in provinces, forts, army and top 2 in gems/research. At the same time honest and willing to make a deal.

Top position seems threatening, while lower position seems weak so it would be best to stay near the top of the curve as being said.

IMO dishonesty is the worst, once you break one deal you're pretty much the lowest denominator in any future deals.

On the other hand, masses of low quality troops don't help that much and eat up the income, so troop quality needs to be considered as well as paths. Someone may look to have limited research, but they may have sped up to a high level in a particular path to take advantage of their fewer options.

Love it...now just to survive till end game.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I would like to say that Atlantis continues to put Forge of the Ancients up in the Middle Way game. He's done it twice, and I think he's clamhording like crazy, which just means when people get around to finally dispelling it, he can just cast it again.

There was a push for an alliance against him because of this, but it's very difficult to effectively gang up on someone like that. I personally think it's much more effective to be powerful than to be weak. I would never curtail my own development.

Jazzepi

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Heehee. Well being about the only person in the conversations AFAIK that has played Dom3 games anywhere near this large both AI and MP, and maps anywhere near this large, the IMHO was more out of diplomatic habit than needed. I very rarely put IMEO.

We tested the extremes pretty well in beta before the game was ever released. Altho we didnt ever achieve anything like 62 human players. But many of the best players were in those games so I figure that their actions were fairly representative of what could be done.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Gandalf,

Shovah was actually correcting a grammatical solecism. "IMHO opinion" repeats "opinion" twice. Although I'm not sure I should even post this, since three posts on a typo seems excessive (and the laws of irony guarantee that this post will also contain at least one typo).

-Maximilian

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I often get ganged up on in MP's:-

Playing MA Man - MA Arco/MA Ermor/MA Pangaea ganged me.
Playing EA Atlantis - EA T'ien C'hi/EA R'lyeh/EA Agartha ganged me.
Playing MA Ermor - MA Abysia/MA Mictlan/MA Marignon ganged me.
Playing EA Niefelheim - EA Sauromatia/EA Abysia ganged me.
Playing EA Marverni - EA Nielfelheim/EA Abysia/EA R'lyeh ganged me.
Playing MA Agartha - MA Bander Log/MA Pythium ganged me.
Playing LA Mictlan - LA Atlantis/LA Abysia ganged me.
Playing LA Agartha - LA Mictlan/LA Ulm/LA C'tis/LA Ermor all ganged me and I still won!

etc, etc, etc....

So, I know alot about being ganged up on. Why is this happening? Because (in my opinion) of the following:-

1) I am loud. By this I mean I am a regular contributor to the forum and usually the game thread. So I am noticable, making myself a target.

2) Have (usually) a strong early game, so I take the lead on most graphs.

3) I am inclined to be aggressive, especially if I detect any weakness in my neighbours. Other players take advantage, wait till I am exhausting myself in a war then attack.

4) I love casting forge of ancients!

The no.1 best thing you can have in a MP is a loyal ally who will stick with you to the very end in the late game. So far I have found 95/100 dominions players to be power mad, stick the knife in soon as look at you. A trustworthy ally is as rare as gold dust.

Btw I have offered a pact to lots of different players, of complete alliance until the end of the game where just the 2 of us have been left. I have never had it accepted, not once in nearly 20 MP games. Why I have no idea, surely finishing in the final 2 with 50% chance of winning is a good deal?

So avoid those if you want to survive...however I will have a more exciting game then you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Wow... people really like you man... or something.

Were you being ganged before or after forge was cast?

So far I've been careful not to be too agressive, yet stay at the top of the curves. Confirming that a) I wasn't the only one attacking and b) I wouldn't be attacked in retaliation from some other direction. The only problem being that the few times this has happened so far i've conceded the enemies capital, losing both income and extra gems (but also the costlier fights) But beyond that its been working peachy with covering my back and still gobbling some provinces.

And definitely interesting discourse on enchantments, the opinions on how long something might stay up are cool... leading me wanting to try getting more up earlier just to see.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I tend to agree with Baalz. I've found people to be rather selfish in these sorts of games - not really willing to fork over the resources to defeat a larger threat until that threat is almost (and usually) too late.

But we'll see... 62 players might change things...

I do agree that unless the blood nations get pounded early in the game we will probably see Astral Corruption up for most of the game. I think it will be much easier for the blood nations to pool blood slaves, whereas I doubt you'll have anyone but LA Ermor really going for Utterdark/BoT...

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

There are quite a few nations with no old-age problems...Rlyeh and the Heims would both (by which I mean all 7 of them) have no problem seeing BoT go up.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Excellent point Max. Marverni is your friend, and they should be allowed to do their harmless research in peace.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I think this is called the Tragedy of the Commons.

Jazzepi

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Thats always been one of my problems in MP. I tend to hold an agreement until the end. Or at least until its been openly declared void. I have a hard time playing as paranoid as I should.

I wish things were different. I believe that some nation combinations could balance each others strength and weaknesses to be more powerful than any nation on its own. Some of my favorite nations strike me as being weak in most MP games but powerful as allies.

Its also why I sometimes check connections to my server to pick up on anyone playing the games as 2 nations without telling their opponents.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I don't understand it either, why not ally till the end? Finish with the 2, 10 months to prepare, meet in x province, winner take all. Possibly max units/commanders. That's actually how I play my alliances (not NAP or defensive alliance) with the intention of supporting them and having a backup the whole game.


Seems like everyone is a paranoid bugger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

About half the MP games I'm in I've had a really good ally that has lasted until almost the end (or my end at least). I have a mental list in my head of players I consider possible trustworthy (or potentially trustworthy) allies.

They are out there, you just need to look hard.

I never would make an alliance to last the ENTIRE game though. If it looks like my ally is about to win - and I still have a shot at #1, I'm not going to sit back and just let him have it!

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Right, but after 100 turns of alliance you don't just stab him in the back do you? There's gotta be a way for either a joint win or a singe (2 outa 3, whatever) contest that will choose the victor.

I'd say either do an arranged apocalyptic battle with everything, 1v1 agreed upon SCs, or 1 naked h1 priest vs another http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif If the alliance got you there, its kind of crappy to have the guy with treachery in mind the last 10 turns positioning units and hoarding resources suddenly go boo.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Not really. When I make my alliances I usually try to be pretty clear that alliances cover everything except installing the other player on the throne as a winner.

So that was his warning... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

It's never came up in a Dom3 game where I had to do that though...

Edit: If I had no chance of winning and my ally did I sure wouldn't try to stop him though.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Kind of random, but question on pricing.

So i've got a good spot in one game where i can become somewhat of a merchant during a peaceful time. I offered prices of 5 pays 7 if same gemtype, 8 if other gem type. for example clam costs 15w+5N so would be 21W+7N to pay or 32 misc gems.

Too high? Too low?

First time i've done it so just curious. Some items will take my pretender to build, which hurts research, but I'm doing well in research in the game (1st currently).

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

You know, as an impartial observer, I'd have to say too high. Unless you are selling to R'lyeh, Niefelheim or Ermor, who are are not only incredibly dangerous but are also unstable to boot. In those cases your prices are far too low, and you should charge at least triple what you are proposing.

Don't even think about selling to Helheim, because the items will just get heim blood all over them, and that would really be a pity. And any nations who have a pact with you should get 50% off at the end of each month.

How does that sound? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Not exactly too high or too low, but... I'd probably charge based on value, which means rarity and utility more than gem cost. (Of course, some things just won't be valuable enough to be worth selling period.) Remember that these items cost you research and mage-time to make, and/or pretender points to bootstrap you into paths to make them. And it would cost other nations the same. So, dwarven hammers might be 25 gems, and a bag of winds might be 60. Boots of Flying, however, don't bootstrap into anything and so your 7/5 formula seems reasonable to me, 14 gems. Remember that you're saving them on research cost as well as possibly getting them into paths they couldn't have reached independently.

-Max

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

In a game with a lot of players I think you'll get much better deals than that trading with other nations. Just send out a message to a few nations you know should have the paths for the items you are looking for and most will probably be looking for something you can make...

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Another plus on trading is that it can increase the trust between nations.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Is that just for you to figure with or that was what you were going to send out? You might also keep in mind that some people hate math. A general sending with a formula might not get you as many responses as some straight sales prices.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

What I sent out, figured the math wasn't too deep or they could just ask me for the price of a specific item.

I agree on the value being based on rarity/utility but this way seemed much easier - at least to get the ball rolling maybe.

For instance, a ring of sorcery - highly highly useful, would be going for 56 astral or 64 misc gems. only a 16 profit on top, but add another (10?) with the hammer and it makes more sense.

For a mage turn I invest 40 of a gem i'm strong in and get back 26 extra or I shore up my weaker numbers with 64. On the useability side with someone who maybe maxed out at 2S it may be worth 100 astral to actually get the item...but far fewer sales (and far less buffing of opponents).

Is it worth not selling boosters at all? Why bootstrap a nation other than a pure ally into a new line?

Hmm, hope there's more dialogue on this as the more I think about it the more paranoid I get.

Will the volume/profit offset the helping of another nation? I'm assuming yes as it happens relatively frequently...

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

At least I tend to swap items. Usually there's something other than gems that you're needing, like boosters for your weak paths. Or, not everyone has earth for dwarven hammers. But I've also sold items for gems, good friends get the base forging cost as a price (so my gain is the one from using the hammer and some good will spreading around).

Regarding the alliances, I feel that there should be something to be gained in an alliance in order for it to last. Of course I'm not going to backstab at the first opportunity, but the guy whose only message to me ever was "NAP, 3 turns to call off?" and who then proceeded to cut off my path of expansion without consulting me isn't going to have a stable neighbour. On the other hand, people that are fun to play with or trade a lot I've defended even if we haven't had a formal alliance.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

I consider a NAP completely different than an alliance. IMO while in an alliance its a NAP, a defensive treaty, and an "i'll back you up in anything you do...even if its really really dumb" all rolled into one.

A NAP is just a small measure of security, and 3 months warning is nothing really. If you're fighting on one front its tough to do anything about another front in 3 months.
6 months notice is best imo, if you can't respond in 6 turns you've got big problems.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Yeah, well, the NAP thing was just an example from the "real" life. I think my main point was, if someone came to me really early with a proposition that let's be allies for the rest of the game, I'd be really wary. Maybe after few joint wars where both of us has had the change to prove that it's more than just talking the talk, but from the get go, no.

With some people it's easy to plan campaigns, share the spoils of victory and feel fair, with other it feels that each turn is battle of wills whether either gets a little more edge. I know which kind of people I want to ally with, my problem being, I don't know what kind of people most of the other players are. Yet.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Good point, unfortunately sometimes the best allies aren't initial neighbors as well. Both good and bad when you're ally is a few nations away.


Do folks ever let the strength of the nation play a role in who your allies are, or is it all personality/playing style?

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Yeah, I don't know about an alliance until the very end, I'm more inclined to ally until our alliance is almost certainly going to win (in my opinion), declare moral victory, then with plenty of warning start fighting my former ally for the win (hopefully with the help of some of the less powerful nations...keep then in and having fun). Not so much a cut throat attitude, just seems like actually going through the motions of conquering every territory with no real challenge, THEN starting the real end game would be more tedium than fun for everybody. I'd much rather lose a close game than win a shutout...

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Strength of nation definetly matters to me. I find it more satisfying, and often safer, to ally with people low on the scoreboard. Not completely on their way out but one who might be more grateful and sharing than someone already high up.

Re: Request for strategy: Late game tips
 

Yeah, depending upon whether you need military support this may or not matter. I know my SP games are heavily affected by my need to ensure self-sufficiency; if I took two nations at once and played them as allies (hmmm, interesting thought) I could put e.g. Astral magic for Dispel and boosters on one and Fire/Water for Rune Smasher and map killers on the other. I'm not sure that I'm schizophrenic enough to play both nations well so I may or may not do this IRL, but having a reliable ally at pretender design time would affect how I spend points. (Yeah, yeah, I should try MP. It's too much of a time commitment.)

It's too bad you can't trade spells a la Master of Orion techs.

-Max