Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

I've decided I want to make a relatively quick mod using mostly existing graphics. So far I've made new nations, offshoot nations and replacement nations. I decided I wanted to try my hand at granting another age to an existing dom3 nation. The devs have never mentioned a LA Oceania update, so I can only assume that they aren't working on one, which leaves me with a bit of room.

So I'd like to hear some suggestions about what LA Oceania could be like - make this a sort of community effort.

The story so far...

Pre EA: Tritons rule the sea. Oceanian Tritons are the strongest, pureblooded, ruled by Triton Kings and the mysterious Amber Clan. Mermen, ichtyids and coastal atlantians aren't a big concern. Aboleths inhabit the deeps but are largely avoidable.

EA: The Atlantian nation ermerges from the deep. They are numerous, driven and entirely capable of invading the land which gives them an edge over Oceania. The war goes badly for the Tritons and they lose the open ocean.

MA: The star falls on the Basalt City which saves Oceania and smashes the Atlantians. Oceania reforms in the shallow waters and looks to claim both coastal provinces and the open seas they once controlled. Pureblood Tritons aren't common and don't hold much power. Mermen and halfmen of the shallows form the new kingdom under the Capricorns. The atlantians are still a danger and Ryleh is growing ever more powerful.

LA: Atlantians have been forced north to the iceflows, are isolated in coastal provinces or have fled to the rainforests of Mictlan. Mermen and regular tritons are common enough but lack a unifying nation. The slave Empire of Ryleh is the undisputed master of the oceans, but is in death throes due to tears in reality, the unstable voidgate, horrors emerging from the deep and mind destroying dreams flowing from the void.

So where does Oceania fit in? Clearly things don't look good,.. or do they? Perhaps now is a time for the remaining pureblooded Oceanians to emerge from hiding and rebuild the old order? Perhaps death and loss has overcome the tritons and merfolk, sharks thrive and the only way to survive is to seek help from numerous human pirate factions?

What do you think?

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Interesting idea for LE Oceania. Would they start on land like LE Atlantis? Or would pirates be their land only recruitable units, like ME R'lyeh when they build a fort on land? It would be tough to work them into the games history, but doable from what you've posted.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

That bit at the end isn't my idea for LA Oceania. Well, pirates is /an/ idea of mine, but I doubt I'd go with it. I'm posting to ask if you guys have any ideas. The bit at the end is just to start the ball rolling.

I think I'd like to give them shark knights. I'd like them to be more about tritons than mermen/halfmen. Other than that I don't know. I just think they're a good project for me and would be relatively quick to do.

So do you have any thoughts?

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Right. I was just curious how you would implement pirates, were you to go that route. Pirates are so hot right now.

I like making them Triton centric, maybe bringing back Triton Kings. But then you may run into the same problem EA Oceania has, too many water only units. I must admit, I'm not that knowledgable about underwater mythos outside H.P. Lovecraft but that stuff is covered already.

I'll have to think about this one too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

I don't really mind them being water-centric; I think that EA Oceania still plays an interesting game, even on the No Indy maps where it can't even get indy troops on land. MA Oceania is slightly less interesting to me, but still good, considering it's a watery Pangaea basically.

It might be good to give LA Oceania a darker edge (a theme of the late era). After all they're forced to live next-door to Ryleh and could well have been driven a bit nuts by it.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Or they could've been forced to adopt an extremely strict mind discipline to deal with the influence of their dangerous neighbor. Maybe they have a special sacred unit called "Will Warrior" or a priestly sect devoted to preserve the minds of the population?

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Their priests could have the inquisitor bonus to help keep out the corrupting dominion of rlyeh. Although going down this road could lead to an underwater marignon, making them water-centric would help them take out rlyeh.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Interesting. I would certainly consider giving them high MR units designed specifically to deal with Ryleh. After all pureblood Oceanian tritons naturally have good mr.

Perhaps something like,...

Oceanian Depth Rangers. Stealth 0, high mr, patrolbonus. Their task is to tirelessly roam Oceanian waters hunting down spawn, hybrids etc. They are semi elite with some extra resistances gained by fighting all manner of horrors. They have been known to launch raids deep into Ryleh in order to strike down foul temples and powerful Illithids.

I'm thinking that LA Oceania would be a nation on constant alert, always ready to strike, to retreat, to counterattack. An assassin form of the Rangers might be nice too, for killing illithids.

What about amphibious troops? I think mermen are a constant in Oceanian history, so I don't mind having them. As for the halfmen of MA Oceania,.. eh,.. then there's Ichtyids - they might be interesting as part of a new oceania.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

How about ichtyids that have been partially corrupted by the horrors of the void? They would certainly make interesting units.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Void touched ichtyids who have been forced from their coastal homes by the more advanced land nations are a possibility. Oceania could be a sort of refugee nation sandwiched between the land and ryleh. I mean since the atlantians have moved north and the shamblers are all but wiped out,... I'm thinking the lighter skinned coastal atlantians could be on board with Oceania too. That way you have a triton based sea nation that's all about smacking ryleh around, but with 'marines' made up of ichtyids, atlantians and mermen specifically armed to storm the beaches. Up on the surface world the big new thing is high tech heavy armour, so it might make sense for them to have armour negating or piercing weapons coupled with entangling/netting stuff.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Ichtyids in general sounds interesting, and this is more than just a person who's joys in life include watching massive phalanxes of ichtyids scour the coasts and shallows talking.

As identified, Oceana has a definate character-arc as a faction. I think the tritons were done in EA. The halfmen rallied things on the periphery, and things went well for a while, but then... anything that couldn't act on the general cry of "Get out of the water!" at the end of the Middle Era got its culture obliterated by Ryleh.

The Ichtyids may be the only ocean-involved "civilization" with any cultural continuity /left/ by LA, (and it wasn't much to begin with). I think some surviving bishop-fish plastered over fringe cities of quasi-civilized ichtyids and some merman (reef dweller?) detrius is how it would end up. For a template to plaster it over I suggest medieval Somolia or Yeman, after the Mongols got finished with the Caliphate.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Good thoughts. I like the idea of beat up and forced on land refugee mermen and ichtyids, also perhaps influenced and mutated by the void.

But personally I really want to get some Triton action going. I like the idea that the Oceanian tritons survived and slowly started to take revenge on Ryleh, perhaps with the help of regular 'garden variety' tritons. Low numbers, obviously and they have to have picked up a certain degree of ruthless pragmatism to have avoided getting killed by the slave armies thusfar. They would have been fighting and killing their own kind and would have to have gotten used to mind control turning the weak-willed against them,.. so I'm guessing they'd be rather vicious themselves. Also there's the racial purity angle - they're happy to use regular tritons, mermen, ichtyids,.. maybe even coastal atlantians,.. to fight their war, unifying and leading them in the process, but they have little regard for the life of anything not strictly of the Oceanian Triton bloodline. Thus they, like so many cultures, have begun to emulate the great destroyer(s) that put and end to their civilisation.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

I like the suggestion that maybe Atlantians came in contact with Mictlan-I think that has all sorts of possibilities.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

If you view LE Mictlan as an Atlantean faction that just happens to be 99.9% human stand-ins, you're there already.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Well Shovah stole my thunder so I will second the void touched Mermen and Ichtyids. That would help explain Sombre's story that the 'True' Oceanians, like Tritons, see them as being inferior. I also like the idea of having the Shark Knights recruitable, though I feel their current ingame graphic lacks sufficient Ummph!

The Bishop Fish could be a kind of in-house inquisition unit, in charge of keeping the void touched 'freaks' in line. I keep picturing an overweight fish-man wearing black leather straps across it's chest and wielding a wicked looking trident.

I think I just got creepy there.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

OK, let's cast our nets.

The objective is to envision a triton-centric LE oceanan nation, for the purpose of competing with LE R'lyeh beneath the waves.

Here's my dominating constraint; ME R'lyeh. What apparently happenned is that R'lyeh swept over all the worlds oceans, creating a slave-based empire and eradicating every other undersea civilization, and then promptly collapsed in an sustained reality-mishap. This is why the LE oceans are chock full of independants and no faction-civilizations; the software just isn't there any more. Each of these provinces is whatever was left after the slaves sorted themselves out locally. Personally I'd be surprised if a non-trivial number of them were even literate any more. They've all got the sociological development of a neolithic tribe. This is the dark age, and the Oceanan Tritons haven't risen again for the same reason the Druids didn't resume control of France after the Romans fell; total break in cultural continuity.

That means a LE Oceanan-triton faction is going to have to spawn primarily from MA R'lyeh's culture. We shouldn't be thinking up an Oceanan-centered faction with void-worship, we should be hashing out a void-worshiping faction that's trying to become oceanan again. Four main points.


First is the matter of the bloodline; obviously it's survival needs a narative. You can spawn locally from Amber-clan in MA R'lyeh service (heck, I use 'em), or use 'hidden in the far corners of oceans'. Personal I go with the first, the Oceanan Triton leadership hasn't been a facter since EA... if they were coming back, they'd have done it in MA. Respawn from the purest strain available, and legends of the past.

Second is character; these are lords of slaves. They can't mind-blast, they don't make shambler thralls, but when the Illithids suddenly all fell down and went into convulsions, they were middle-management and had the best idea of what a coherent operation actually was (if amber clan). So they took over by virtue of being the only somewhat-organized successor faction. Tritons with meteroic armor (and sharks, sharks are cool and shark-riders are still around memetically), slaves to take the fight above the waves if needed, but not the big thing.

Third is religion; some flavour of void-worship. The pretender-god of oceana is dead as a doornail and failed them besides, the magical tradition has a continuity break in it, the void is here and the void is mighty (and it mind-fried the local illithids, which is why they're free at this point). Dial it down though; they see the void creatures vaugely as the MA R'lyeh did with the added bonus of them being agents of their liberation. They aren't feeding the world to them. I would express it by giving them extremly astral-demanding national summons for some void-creatures, and a sacred mage type with heavy astral and 10% insanity. They don't have the void-gate, they aren't affiliated with the dreamlands, but the holy and powerful amoung them can with massively localized power 'bore through' a small space and get something to come out. The backwash acounts for the trace insanity for initiates of the process.

Four is agenda. The inscruitible powers of the void gave them a reprieve; they understand it for what it is and they mean to make the most of it. Racial superiorty, a return to poorly-remembered past glories, and vengance on the illithid scourge (all the while ironically copying their methods and thinking themselves champions of their own past).


Back at you.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Largely, yes. But the nation must be able to escape onto the land to some degree, which requires amphibious troops / mages / priests that aren't useless. They don't have to be great, just not useless.

I agree in part. This nation is obviously going to be seriously influenced by MA and LA Ryleh. On the other hand in Dom3 'history' both Ermor and Arco are supposed to have ruled huge empires - you can see their influence in some nations (and the destruction of others, such as marverni) but others have managed to escape them. LA Ermor is like the LA Ryleh of the surface, but not that many nations are thematically built around surviving their onslaught and not that many surface nations vanish (ie are wiped out) from MA to LA.

Now in standard Dom3, where there's no LA Oceania, you have to assume that the seas were essentially all controlled by the MA Ryleh empire. But if we /do/ have Oceania, that could be proof that MA Ryleh didn't quite take everything before reality started to fall apart for them.

So while LA Oceania /must/ be influenced by Ryleh, they could still have sustained their own culture by radical and desperate means.

So upon reading your 4 main points and agreeing with many parts, here's my take on things



I agree that the reign of the Triton kings shouldn't be brought back. I could come up with reasons for it coming back, but it wouldn't feel like a natural progression. However Oceanian tritons were still part of MA Oceania, though they had been relegated to the position of underwater specialists and the amber clan had either gone rogue or been enslaved.

I agree that the amber clan, who have survived where the old tritons kings failed, should be a strong presence in LA Oceania. I also think they would have been enslaved (though not wholly) by the illithids.

Here's how I see the bloodlines.

Amber Clan - Gave Ryleh many common triton slaves, retained their minds and became an even darker secret society. Obsessed with racial purity and the survival of their bloodline, they developed secret ways of resisting the minds of the illithids without alerting them while slowly and spitefully undermining and destroying common triton and atlantian slave revolts. When Ryleh fell they revealed their surprising strength, murdered many illithids and began manipulating other slaves to rebuild the ruins of ancient pearl cities. They have learned some darker magics from their time with Ryleh.

Oceanian Tritons - As the Capricorns and their halfmen fought for the coasts against ever expanding Ryleh, the Tritons, unable to leave the water, suffered the most. They became embittered through constant war with triton slaves (both common and Oceanian) and declare that any Oceanian mentally enslaved is officially cut from the bloodline. Though they fight loyally for the Capricorns they are betrayed and the halfmen flee to the safety of land to be absorbed into the declining Pangaea as proponents of modern ways. The Oceanian tritons, left behind and in serious trouble, manage to keep themselves alive and fight soley against Ryleh, adopting different tactics (such as rangers, shark knights, darker magic). They use non Oceanians as fodder, forcing them to fight and caring little if they die - even sacrificing them to attract more sharks. As Ryleh begins to tear itself apart they launch a crusade to find a place shrouded in mystery, a pearl city their few leaders claim is still held by dimly remembered Triton Kings and their elite guard. When they finally arrive they find it to be a ruin, but in their darkest hour the Amber Clan arrive and promise much.

The AC know how to spin a situation - they see a battered but willing supply of racially pure (although not amber and therefore still inferior) Oceanian Tritons, something they never imagined they'd get their hands on. They present their own warped view of histoy, mesh it with that of the surviving Oceanian tritons and voila - as a new god of the sea awakens in the ruins of the pearl city a new nation of LA Oceania is born. They have returned to the deeps, but have new knowledge of manipulation and an awareness that if Ryleh is to be destroyed and the old glory brought back, they will need followers. The cowardly halfmen are long gone, the atlantians are fled,... but there are creatures on the shoreline who are being pushed INTO the water rather than out - a desperate Ichtyid culture of blood worshippers. They will make useful soldiers, first in the sea, then on land.

So we have a largely sea-centric culture which is influenced by: Hate and bitterness. Racial superiority. The glory of the past (or their warped version of it). Fear of being enslaved or betrayed again. The ruthless drive to survive (shark influence). The void next door. Reclaiming lost territory.

At the same time they have taken the Ichtyids on board who are also influenced by the void (called/driven into the ocean), are blood users, are more than happy to leave the land, but that want to return and destroy those that drove them off the coast.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Sounds good so far. Nice and dark like most of the LE nations. I find late age a bit depressing, prolly why I don't play it much.

The thought of an underwater blood nation is intriguing if only because it's not been done. They would most likely need several unique blood spells and summons since most (if any) aren't castable underwater. But that would make them the first underwater nation with national spells. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Whatever you decide, it will be good. I'm consistently impressed with the mods in this community.

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

So this is more of an AH then. The simplest explanation for an oceanan core is that when the Capricorns disenigrated and then R'yleh fell, there were still some cut off far-flung Oceana deep-sea provinces that hadn't been swept up by the Illithids yet, and those won by default, with their main claim to fame being an organized force of tritons. Which had been years without stepping fin inside a kelp citadel, operating on a shoestring, and had been holding the (rapidly collapsing) line by recruiting and putting into the field whatever the hell they could get their hands on, in whatever fashion their desperate immenant-doom focused intellects could innovate at the time.

The Amber Clan collaberators are as you describe, only end up with the Oceanans and instead of the ruins of the R'lyeh empire for a reason; their act of successor-state mojo was to /get the hell out/ of the collapsing R'lyeh empire as it began to be consumed by insanity, chaos, and it started to become time to pay the piper with the millions of tritons and mermen they bought their continued survival from the Illithids by oppressing (massive disoranized pogroms, throughout the former R'lyeh empire). They present themselves as you describe. The fact that this definately wasn't their grandfathers' amber-clan is initially glossed over, and all sorts of embarassing questions about their current practices and inexplicably expanded abilities and tollerances are pointedly not asked.

The Amber Clan collaberators provide indispensible leadership and noble caste. The Oceanans provide an indispensible small population base for middle-management, organization, and bloodline.

The Ichtyids began as just one conscripted part of the cut-off Oceanan's ad-hoc force (along with the shark-riders, the cannon-fodder lesser tritons, and the what-have-you), and have bred back, and bred up. They're kept subdued with chains of religion, the Amber Clan has found fertile ground corrupting these primitives into something useful. Communion-slave units level, like Pythium has. Also, you could just scrap the ichtyid idea and use mermen.


I wouldn't include blood-magic; not really needed and it doesn't mesh well with under-water. Void-summons as battle-field independants can fill the niche, imagine Ichtyid priest-magi that can do /that/. (although if you're hung up on blood, well... Yog Sothoth-Neblod Zin, Zurorugos Yog-Sothoth. 50 virgins gets you a Vastness.)

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

Well blood magic is useless underwater, yes. But then I want the nation to be able to clamber out of the water too, using the Ichtyids. Blood isn't a part of the Triton / Amber system at all, it's purely used by the Ichtyids they are manipulating and they are destined for amphibious land warfare, after all. It also makes LA Oceania, as an underwater blood using (but not blood economy) nation, very different from everyone else. I'm thinking Ichtyid shamans with H1 B1 and a 110% random of DBW and Ichtyid robed cultists as a secondary sacred troop type (the primary sacreds will obviously be Tritons).

I'll give them some underwater blood summons (Sharks!) new national spells and whatnot, but I'm not keen on giving them void creatures. I don't see LA Oceania as having a void based religion - even with the rather corrupt ambers leading them they still hate what Ryleh has done to their entire world and would like to 'fix' it and possibly close the portals to the void.

So far the races in the nation are:
Amber Tritons (upper class)
Oceanian Tritons (middle class)
Common Tritons (low class)
Mermen/Coastal atlantian slaves (lowest)
Ichtyids (regarded with distaste, but generally a seperate class)

When I said the ambers set about rebuilding ruins I don't mean Ryleh ruins, I mean the ooooooold leftovers of EA Oceania. That's why when the Oceanian tritons turned up there on a last ditch crusade looking for the promised land the Ambers were able to pretend they'd always been there (living the dream, since they're obsessed with racial purity and the past) and quickly assume control of the Oceanians. They claim that in ages past it was THEM not the Triton kings that ruled over the glory of Oceania (they may even believe this themselves).

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

I like the idea of LA Oceania being a sort of refugee-nation for all kinds of void-warped submarine creatures fleeing an imploding Rlyeh. Half-insane Ichthyids, Mermen, etc. all frantically piling up into heavily fortified caves and ancient Oceanian keeps which are being hastily organized by a warrior overclass of Rlyeh-hating Tritons (the remnants of the Amber Clan?).

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

I really like the ideas going on here.

I don't think there's anything wrong with blood-magic underwater. Blood, supposedly, is very close in consistency to sea-water, and ofcourse sharks are practically designed around the stuff.

EA Atlantis does have 1 single national summon-the giant fish. I'm hoping to rectify that in some way, in a mod, since I want to make them weirder-going with the Lovecraftian theme. I think they deserve more national spells, and I think I have a way to kinda-sorta have a very different EA Atlantis that's still pretty much the same.

I'm thinking that when the Illithid Star fell and shattered the Basalt Kings' Dark Crystal, it created a rift in the space-time continuum, which influenced and afflicted the Atlantians with the Void going back in time from the destruction of their civilization.

I thought I'd also mention that I've got Aboleths pretty well covered. I don't know if you were thinking of using them (ofcourse you're welcome to), but I'm in the process of modding a middle and a late age for them. Middle will be a sort of underwater Arabian Mamluk-culture. Late era isn't finalized yet, but I've got some work done on it.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from doing any kind of mod you want, ofcourse, I just wanted to let you know what I'm working on so that we didn't feel the need to duplicate each other's efforts just to "fill in some blanks".

A couple of ideas for your mod: I'd really like to see sacred shark knights, and an Amber Clan version of the Triton King (A Triton King decked out in that amber armor would be a really awesome graphic! Let alone a really powerful unit). And what about some kind of amber golem? Since they're amber-manipulators and golems don't have to breathe underwater. If they're relatively insane submarine creatures, do they have any surviving Agarthans among them? I hate to think they *all* went extinct. Maybe they just evolved to be more "fishy"?

Re: Nation Idea: LA Oceania
 

I'm bumping this because I just restarted work on it. Lots to do still. I'll update at a later date.