spob34
 

Hello all,
Thanks to the staff for the great work.
I just wish to correct some language mistakes in the italian oob.

Unit:
113-222-223-224-762-763-764 SM.82 Canguru -> Canguro;
155 Ingegnere CCNN -> Genieri CCNN;
209-210-211-212 Br.20M Cigogna -> Cicogna;
267 ParaCacciacarra -> Par�Cacciacarri;
165-166-167 Bicicletta means just bicicle, you may want name it Fanteria ciclista (bike infantry);
277-280 Ricerca MC -> Fanteria motociclista (Motorbike inf) or Esploratori (espl) motociclisti (Motorbike recon) as you prefer;
285-286-287-288 Fortificata Casa -> Casa fortificata;
295 Art Marittima -> Art Costiera;
345 Fiamme Verde -> Fiamme Verdi;
381 Spelonca alpino -> Grotta fortificata (fortified cave in rocky hills);
455 Maro Ingegnere -> Mar� Genieri;
510-511 delete "di"
520 Caccia DD should have 127mm;
521 Incrociatore CL should have 152mm;
522 Incrociatore CA should have 203mm;
523 Corazzata V BB should have 381mm, avalable from 5/40 onward;
524 Corazzata BB (305mm) available till 1/1937;
525 Corazzata BB (should be 320mm)available from 6/1937 onward;
550 Arditi Tiratore -> Ardito Tiratore;
675-676-740-741 expl. -> espl.
690 Ingegnere -> Genieri
449-450-452-453-455-456-458-459-792-793-810-811-812 Maro-> Mar�

Re: spob34
 

Thanks for the "corrections" but in the case of "Mar�" for example, surely you must have noticed by now that the game only uses a standard, NON-inflected alphabet ? There are no Umlauts etc used in the German OOB on any other OOB for the same reason. Those letter characters do not exist in the games alphabet and if used will cause the game to crash.

As well, there are name length limitations so "Fanteria motociclista" simple will not fit into the space available for names in the game nor will "Fanteria ciclista" which is why terms like " Bicicletta" and "Ricerca MC" are used instead. The same issue applies to Spelonca alpino -> Grotta fortificata. What you think is correct simply will not fit.



Don

Re: spob34
 

I wrote the whole names to let you cut them short as you see fit. I didn't see the accented characters issue though, so I stand corrected, but don't be so sharp.

Re: spob34
 

Some things just do not stand up well to being shortened especially when dealing with different languages. Yes, "Bicicletta" could be "Fant.Ciclista" ( that contraction will actually fit ) but it's been "Bicicletta" for years without complaint and we've had Italian speaking playtesters. Art Marittima -> Art Costiera; "Marine artillery" vs Costal artillery. Yes, I suppose that's somewhat more accurate. Ricerca MC could be just "Motociclisti" but the original term has been in the OOB for years as well and was intended to represent it's scouting function I could use "Espl. MC" but really.....which is "more correct" ???

Re: spob34
 

You already include "Art Costiera" (unit 336-337) so you just have two names for the same thing, though unit 295 is an AAMG emplacement. As for the bicicletta etc, sure it isn't an issue to the game in itself, just for the taste of it: what would you see better, moving a bycicle or a bike squad? Nothing more than this. I don't know how much of an issue it is for you to change that, you see if it's worth.

Re: spob34
 

Well, it's mostly a tiring and boring work after which someone will for sure come and ask why unit xxx is called yyy when in last version it was zzz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

spob34 - Apr.2008
 

Some issues from the Italian OOB spob34,
game version v3.00 (OOB version "April 2008" .. no version number given any more, contrary to the manual?!)


U#423 "3RO 75L46"
SP-AT Vehicle [Type 52] ... but 0 AP/Sabot/Heat ammo

<font color="#ff0000">Update: see 2 posts further down ...</font>
<font color="#666666">U#497 "TL-37 75L27"
same type [52], same gun (75L46)
- there's no 75L27 gun in the italian OOB, but doubt L46 and L27 are anywhere similar in performance! Btw., I googled for 75L27 and came up with nothing? </font>

U#484 "Tl-37 AS-20"
same autocannon (W#005 Breda CM 20L65) as U#475, yet it has the 40HE/5AP ammo loadout of inf/AA guns instead of a 20HE/25AP loadout.
Both are SP-AT Vehicle [Type 52], btw. ...

U#57 "3RO 90L53"
is [UnitClass 19 =Tank Destroyer Tank Clone] but should be [UnitClass 52 =AT(Wheeled) Wheeled vehicle AT type] as it is wheeled, unless this is an formation issue ?!


misc. :
There are tons of weapon-specific bunkers and generic "Art Costiera" ... plus ONE "Art Marittima" (sea arty) and "Difesa Costiera" (coastal defense) each [Type 254]
.. and some generic fortifications [Type 0] .. maybe throw out 50% of them unless you need them for the AI ?!

U#86 and U#135 are basically the same tank, one available from 6/42-12/42, the other one in 46. Why not extend the first from 6/42-12/46 ?

Why is "semovente" some abbr. as SMV and sometimes spelled out completely ?

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

****** No...... we have always given a date as the version number but we used to include the actual day the OOB was altered and now we just go by the month and the Year so what you used to see as "Version 28/April/06" was NOT "version 28 produced on April 2006". It was produced on April 28, 2006. I dropped the day to save space on that info line and to simplify it as the actual day is unimportant.

******Yep, and it's been that way for years ( over 6 years at the very minimum )My first guess is it should have AP but seeing as it's been that way for quite awhile I will assume instead that I'll need to dig into it a litte deeper


********** I'll look into it.

***** I'll look into it


*********** If you look at that unit more closely you will see the moveclass IS "wheeled" for that unit. It will be a formation issue and exact unit class name is irrelavant.


*******No chance of that happening. Why would more choices be an issue ? It seems we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If I took them out ( and I have NO intention of doing so ) someone else would ***** that they we removed them.


********* The version in Unit 86 was added sometime between now and Dec 2002 as a replacement for another unit that was removed and that provided rough continuity in the OOB on the remote chance that unit had been used in a sceanrio. Yes, it is somewhat redundant but to anyone actually playing the game it means absolutely nothing at all.


*******Becasue sometimes we need to use the appreviation to fit the unit name into space available. Unit 86 is a prime example "Semovente M.42 75L34" is too long a name so in that case "SMV M.42 75L34" is used. Sometimes we have the space and that's why Unit 89 is "Semovente M10" instead of "SMV M10"

Don

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

Actually, there seems to be some mixup regarding Inf/AT/AA guns in the Italian OOB.
Might even go back as far as May 20, 1943 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...lled-guns.html

The report mentions 2 truck-mounted 75/27 guns and claimes one is an AA gun made by Krupp. Yet, as far as I could find out from various sources on the net, the L/27 build by Krupp was a export model Inf gun. It was obsolete in WW2, but the Italians had nothing to replace it with and developed a HEAT shell to make it more usuable against (british) tanks.
Wasn't able to find the (horsedrawn) 75/L27 Inf gun in the OOB, and the self-propelled versions lack the HEAT ammo.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...443&amp;page=2
http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/...=20&amp;t=2527


U#497 "TL-37 75L27" (from posting above)
- uses 75mm L46 M34 gun (w#124) instead of the indicated 75mm L27 Mod.34 (w#102)

I doubt L46 and L27 are anywhere similar in performance, yet they and some more are in OOB 34 ... . I think the L27 is the inf gun, and the L46 and L60 are the AA guns. Their (obviously) generic performance values should be tweaked accordingly.

U#008 &amp; U#010 "Ceirano 75L27" uses 75mm L27 Mod.34 (w#102)
PEN 2:10 Range 75:46

U#423 "3RO 75/L46" uses 75mm L46 Mod.34 (w#124)
PEN 2:10 Range 75:46

U#425 "Ansldo 75mm M34" AA/AT gun uses 75mm L60 Mod.34 (w#115)
PEN 2:10 Range 90:46 .. btw., it's "Ansaldo" and this abbr. to squeeze the name into 15 characters is plain ugly ..

Btw, those sources hint the existance of HEAT shells for inf guns (not that high numbers where actually delivered, though .. italian crews improvised by firing HE shells without fuze?). I would suggest adding low numbers of AP and HEAT shells to the guns in question. Obviously, somebody already tried this, but why SABOT ammo was chosen I don't know ... the HEAT shells where streamlined! [ U#321,323,325,327,329 ]



Some more possible errors :

U#517-519 "Pattuglia" (Patrol) is size "1"
Should be "0" .. e.g. USMC (OOB013) patrol U#053 is size "0" but carries many more weapons and ammo ..

U#332 "C/C 50L60 PaK" has radio code "0"
Yet, #330 and #331 have code "1".
Looks like someone tried some wizardry to make the smaller guns sometimes show up later in the war, when the PaK 50 was already available but maybe in insufficent numbers .. With AT guns spread out to "Anti-Tank Guns", "AT-Guns" and improvised AT guns (inf guns), I wonder if this really works out ... .

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

Its the other way around. The USMC one should be size 1. 6+ men are size 1, 5 or less are size 0. At least this is the convention.

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

Sabot, as explained in the Mobhack help, is simply AP shell number 2. Many field gun types in the OOBS have a full range for the main HE shell, which uses (shares) the same range as the AP round, as explained in the mobhack help files. The sabot shell has its own AP range - which can be shorter or longer than the HE, HEAT and AP rounds which all use the one shared range.

Take the AP round for the UK 25 pounder - the ATG version of this is still useful for potting things with HE at distances, but if the AP round was given the same range as the HE round, it would be incredibly effective with its 200+ hex maximum range!. Same as for the little 37mm French tank popgun - a useful HE range, but a short range AP round using the sabot slot as it was not very effective at AP at all.

So - these units use a sabot round with a short range to allow the full HE range, but a short range AP shell of some sort as the "sabot". Could be an unfused HE round, who either knows or cares - only the OOB designer, and unless he put that in an info screen, we (Don and I) don't know either since these OOBS have been worked on by multiple persons for well over a decade.

If you need the nuts and bolts details, and one of those guys is still available you can discuss it with him as he may know why he made some decision or other. It could be because he copied the stats for the existing Umty-Flumpty model 543 howitzer as an improvised ATG, and wanted to retain the useful HE range, so gave it a short-ranged AP round if the original Umpty-Flumpty 543 did not have this, or he simply copied the existing Umpty-Flumpty 543 (which has a sabot as the shorter ranged AP round as howitzers usually do) and reclassed it as an ATG for the improvised ATG class?. If the OOB designer that did it is available - he may well be able to tell you. Otherwise your guess is as good as anyone else's - including us.

Cheers
Andy

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

Oh, really?
Then why are all those 8-men HMG squads size "0" ?!

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

I'm waiting for an answer on that as well, because those should also be size 1 according to the convention. My feeling is that when those units were created they were copy-and-pasted from 3- or 4-man single HMGs, and while everything else was increased, the size wasn't. I could also be that there's a size 0 convention for infantry weapon teams, but I doubt it. Look to see if other MG squads (6+ men) are size 0 or 1 in other OOBs.

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

They are size 0 to represent easily camouflage/hidden MG I think

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

The smaller ATG (not 17 pdrs etc) and all M/HMG teams have always been size 0, because these were deemed easy units to conceal. Mortars were not - because these are crewed standing up.

For scout teams and so forth, only those under 5 men in size are allowed size 0 - as far as I recall, in the original SP series all Japanese rifle sections were given size 0, but that bonus has been removed a long time ago.

As far as M/HMG sections of 2 or more guns being super-deadly because they have size 0 - I really don't find that to be the case myself. They may get a round or 2 off undetected but if you keep firing from the same position you soon get spotted. But the best counter is just to stop advancing for a move or 2 if under MG fire and call in mortar fire on the general location you think the fire is coming from.

If you think the multiple gun sections need to be size 1, then by all means try it out in your OOBS with Mobhack, after running it through the points calculator to remove the size 0 added cost and see if it makes any real difference.

Cheers
Andy

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

Personally, I had no problems with size 0 MG units. They can be effective if used wisely, but they are no superweapon and the size 0 gives them (with splash damage effect) just enough punch to be actually worthwhile (in pre-splash days the MG's were really quite underpowered IMO).

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

Correct. All the "patrol" units in the game that are 6 men are size one EXCEPT the USMC ( the USA "Fighting Patrol" is 6 men and size 1 as well) so it's the USMC unit that's the error ( now fixed ) and not the Italian Pattuglia. There are three scout units in the OOB's that were six men and size zero as well and those have now been corrected

Don

Re: spob34 - Apr.2008
 

[quote=DRG;610682]As it still does not have any AP ammo in v4.0, I guess you either forgot to dig deeper, or there must be some really interesting story why the Italians put 75L46 guns on trucks, only to shoot HE shells with puny penetration at tanks ... lack of AP shells? HEAT shells never arrived?
Point is, the unit does not make much sense as it is now ... but there are some of those in the Italian OOB, historically correct ;)

Btw., I know for some (few, britsh e.g.,) units there are info texts in the encycl., ... would you like to have more for the other vehicles?
This gun would be a prime example for a unit in dire need of "explanation" ;)

Re: spob34
 

Change the ammo load to 20 HE/ 30 AP. Problem solved. Now corrected in the master

If you find any further informaton on this weapon please let us know .


Don

Re: spob34
 

I'm not entirely sure which gun this is supposed to be ... I don't have any literature, so I have to rely on what I find on the net:

I found mentioned

- Breda 75/46, Main armament of the Semovente M43 da 75/46, a German variant combining confiscated Italian guns und vehicles. ... The 75/46 M.34 appears to have been based on an obsolete anti-aircraft gun of WW1 vintage, possibly the French 75 mm Puteaux anti-aircraft gun.
and
fireandfury.com - Semovente M43 da 75/46

- Ansaldo 75/46 Ultime réalisation de l'ingénieur Giuseppe Rosini, le semovente da 75/46 était une évolution du semovente da 105/25, basé sur le même châssis M43. Les différences principales entre les deux blindés étaient la substitution du canon de 105/25 par celui de 75/46, particulièrement adapté pour le tir antichar, et l'ajout d'un blindage supplémentaire sur la partie frontale de la casemate dont l'épaisseur variait de 70 �* 100 mm.
Note also the link to http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...none75-46.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone....A._modello_34

My french is non-existant, but I think those 2 sources a slightly contradicting.

Judging from the pics on that french website, the unit/equipment list on http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/...hp?f=20&t=2527, which lists
ANTI-AIRCRAFT
20mm L/65 + Ford or Spa
37mm L/54 + ?
75mm L/46 + ?
...

and
Comando Supremo: GGFF (Giovani Fascisti) 1941-1943, which lists
136th INFANTRY DIVISION GGFF - Giovani Fascisti (Mareth Line 15 March 1943)
48th AA/ATk ARTILLERY BATTALION (Italian 75/46 AA Guns)

I would say that
- the Ansaldo AA gun was used in dual role
- it may, or may not have been used mounted on trucks
- it may, or may not have been used in a SVM

Great ;)

I would guess in fact that the gun on the truck was the Ansaldo 75/46, considering the fact that the german 8.8 must have been of similar size, and was screwed onto everything that could drive ... .
From the pics provided, it seems to me that the SVM is not of sufficient size to house the big AA gun without extensive redesign - doesn't matter that much, as only 11 seems to have been produced. Btw., the successor, the 90/53 gun was mounted on a tank chassis (Semovente 90/53) and was so big that half of the crew had to stand behind the TD in combat.

Re: spob34
 

Addendum:

Could be that Unit 425 Ansaldo 75mm and Unit 423 3RO 75L46 are meant to be using the same gun?!

Though italian measurement of calibre length was somewhat different from the usual (allied) one, at least according to some sources, and in general, shorter, I doubt that the 75L46 could be the heavy 75mm Ansaldo AA/AT gun rated as L60 by the allies. But then, I wasn't able to find anything 'bout a 75/L60 AA gun, but lots of pointers to the 75/L46 AA gun?! It is somewhat suspicious, that both seem to use the Mod.34 designation ?!?!


PS: One may want to ask the folks at juniorgeneral.org what are their source for these pics ...

Re: spob34
 

It's a 75/46-mm AA gun (Model 34) mounted on a truck

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ar...ppendix-d.html
75/46-mm AA gun (Model 34) Caliber (inches)2.97 Muzzle velocity (foot-seconds) 2,350 Max range (yards) 14,100 /27,200 ft Remarks "Mobile gun "

Somebody long ago decided either this or other information warranted it's inclusion. It's sat in dusty obscurity until you bought up the issue of AP ammo. It will have AP ammo in the next patch release

Don

Re: spob34
 

Looking at the Nafziger OOBs

942IQAU Italian Army, Authorized Strength, 75mm/46 Anti-Aircraft or Anti-Tank Artillery Group, June 1942

942IQAV Italian Army, Authorized Strength, 90mm/53 Anti-Aircraft or Anti-Tank Artillery Group, June 1942

I've come to the suspicion that there wheren't any truck-mounted 75/46 guns, but 90/53 guns only (do the math - 4 guns, 1 reserv. tractor, 4 trucks, 1 reserve driver = 10 vs. 4 SP guns, 4 trucks, 2 hv. trucks and 1 reserve driver = 11):

The OOB list per gun section (4 guns):
- 10 Drivers / 5 Tractors & 4 heavy trucks for the 75/46,
but
- 11 Drivers / 4 munition caissons heavy trucks & 2 heavy trucks for the 90/53

I haven't checked all the avalaible pics, but I want to point you (again) to
http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...none75-46.html

and

http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...none90-53.html

... it's pretty obvious that there isn't ONE pic of a truck-mounted 75/46, but several of the Lancia 3Ro 90/53 !!!


There are some pics of a truck-mounted 75/27 CK, though (http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...nnone75ck.html), which may be the "75mm based on an obsolete WWI gun", which is mentioned on one of the websites I linked somewhere above.


Thanks for your patience.
Again.
;)

late-war trouble especially with the armour formations
 

There's some late-war trouble especially with the armour formations in spob34 ... :

Lots of them end in 8/43 or 9/43. (isn't 9/43 the date of the surrender?) - yet, lots of arty and inf formations run through to 12/46

You can start generated (what-if) battles/campaigns ("Operation Unthinkable") after that date just fine ... .

Even long campaigns, which then end 2 years before they started - but this is said to be a bug ;)
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...866#post755866

Re: spob34
 

The Italian army didn't evaporate with the surrender, they nominaly changed sides and that's why there is infantry and artillery. As time passes more and more allied equipment is added but the historic long campaign we ended with the surrender in 1943. As noted you can play all the what if's you like with the generated campaign. The reason there are various end dates to the armoured formations is because some contiuned in operation a bit longer than others

The long campaign issue regarding the start date is a minor bug that anyone can avoid simply by not setting one up that way, but we WILL fix it so that this will not be an issue for anyone when we issue the next upgrade to the game.

Don

Re: spob34
 

Problem is:
There are (nearly)no working armour formations after 9/'43!!
E.g. in June/'45 all that is available are some flame thrower tank squad and platoon (IIRC) - looks like the old vehicles/formations are phased out in '43, and the new formations only start in '46.
So if you want to "switch sides", and play Italians vs. Germans in late'44, early '45, or Italians vs. Comminist Menace in '45/'46, you'll have no armour at all !!

Can't believe that they only scrapped their tanks, and continued fighting on foot with their old arty, then waited 3 years for the Allies to supply new tanks ;)

Re: spob34
 

If you find info the contrary do let us know but what we have in the OOB now is what reseach gave us years ago and has been like that since the games OOB's were first re-written. IE, the italian army did not contain armour formations post surrender until the war ended and was strictly an infantry army. Like it or not that's the way it was and unless someone can come up with hard data that the italians operated armoured units post surrender that's the way it was going to stay. The guy who worked on that OOB was and Italiophile..... if there were armoured units post surrender, he would have included them

From the game guide historical game notes


Don

Re: spob34
 

I haven't researched the topic in detail, though I might do that someday, but what you find strange is perfectly logical.
At surrender time most of the country had either already fallen into allied hands or quickly fell into german ones as most army units either melted as the command structure collapsed or were quickly shot to pieces by the wermacht.
Only a few units remained intact in area of the south which the allies had not reached, the germans were not in strenght and the local commanders had kept their cool; the king and some generals hd fled there for what they were worth (not much, but that would be a separate thread).
Now, the italian AFVs that did not fall in the pathetic category by the summer 1943 amounted to little more than relatively few assault guns and tank destroyers; we are talking about numbers in tens range for each type, not a whole lot. Of those some were lost in Sicily against the allies ( apparently all the Semovente 90L53 for example) and most or all of the rest were either captured or destroyed by the germans.
I don't have an exact OOB of those units which survived in the South at hand but from what I recall it was an infantry division tasked with coast defense and a mixed bag of other assorted infantry units; while I can't say with 100% certainty that no armor was there even in the unlikely case they had something that did not fall in the useless category there was the little problem that all the tank plants were in german controlled territory, so any long term use would have been problematic.
The italian units which fought alongside the allies were progressively equipped with allied weapons due to logistical considerations, tanks may not have been issued fo a variety of reasons.