Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Hello everyone,

I've been playing Dominions 2 for a long time, and have ordered Dom 3 and it should be here in a couple of days. When I first ordered Dom 2 years ago it took me months to figure out what works and what doesn't, it was a complicated game. I read a lot of good advice to get me rolling on these boards, and I imagine a lot of new players did the same. So I decided to contribute back and help some new players with Kailasa in the demo while I wait for my full copy.

Kailasa is an intersting nation, and can be somewhat versatile. Their main strengths seem to be cheap archers and an abundance of sacred troops. So I think the best and most obvious choice is to focus on that.

Pretender Design

I went with a F9 Red Dragon, awakened. The scales I chose were Order:2, Sloth:2, Heat:2, and Growth:2. Kailasa, for the most part, has gold expensive troops at low resources, so I find these scales work well. You could possibly substitute 1 point in growth with 1 point in magic for a research boost without effecting your income too much.

Another possible route to take would be W9 Mother of Rivers awakened. I sometimes have trouble finding magic sites that give you water gems on land, so the immediate boost is worth it, and the bless isn't too bad either. It's also recommended if you plan on facing underwater nations. However the expense is you won't have access to fire gems as easily through searching and a few key fire spells won't be readily castable without some luck and forging.

There are a lot of options possible, however extra income and low supply scales, I feel, are a must.

Army design

First thing you'll notice about Kailasa is they have cheap, cheap scouts. These guys are great as they give you valuable information about the army you're about to face and as you move them away where the enemy nations are located. With the icon to locate them added to Dom 3 I find myself using them much more often (in Dom 2 I'd lose track of them easily and became a bit of a hassle).

After a little more examination, you'll see that every troop available except one has a movement rate of 2 on the world map, so the nation as a whole is pretty mobile.

Next thing you'll see is your starting army and it pretty much stinks. It can take a weak indy province, but will take heavy losses, so I'd get that out of the way as soon as possible.

Over the next few turns or less you can begin to design your own army. Here's a list of the better troops and how to use them:

You've got three different types of archers available, Markata, Atavi, and Bandar. Markata archers are cheap so it's easy to amass them in large numbers, however their range is smaller and they're fast, so frequently what happens is they run out in front of your lines to fire and get slaughtered. Atavi archers have the range necessary to stay put, for the most part, and fire. Bandar archers are even more expensive than both, but have a lower precision and more hit points. I don't think they're worth the cost. Atavi archers are probably the best option, they have a chance of surviving an arrow or sling and don't run out to get cut down.

Out of all the infantry, Markata, Atavi, and Bandar, I think the resource heavy Bandar Swordsmen is the best option. They can take a few hits and hold a line, and are pretty good at absorbing missle weapons. It's well worth the cost, and additionally they're the only troop that uses more than a single digit of resources and even at sloth:2 you'll have enough to get quite a few of them and still get plenty of archers.

Unfortunately, there is no calvarly to speak of in Kailasa.

There are three types of sacred troops in Kailasa, and two are capital only. Yavana with a spear, Yavana with a sword and buckler, and Yavana Archers. They're not too expensive at around 40 gold a piece, and with a good bless they can be massed quickly and become extremely dangerous if you can keep them safe from missile fire. Since they're sacred, you can only recruit a certain number of them depending on your dominion, so you have to make a decision on how to best use them. I prefer to take the Yavana with the swords over the archers and spearmen because there's a lack of hardy front line troops and I already have plenty of archer options, but the blessed archers aren't too bad either.

The basic strategy is to put the Bandar swordsmen in front, behind them the Yavana, and behind them/on the flanks your archers. I set all melee troops to hold and attack to let your most likely superior firepower fire a few volleys, and then move in to finish them off. Thinning the enemy out with arrows should minimize your losses.

Your basic commanders are either Bandar Commanders or Atavi Chieftains. I'd stick with the Bandar Commander whenever possible, theose Atavi have a tendancy to die easily.

Mages

Kailasa has 4 mages available, and 2 priests. The priests are very expensive and only H1, but that's as good as it gets here. These are good candidates for a prophet as you'll be hard pressed to find a higher indy priest.

The Yogi isn't a bad deal at 80G for 1S. It makes a decent mage to sit and spam Body Ethereal and later Luck on your blessed troops to improve their lifespan, or to cast Magic Duel and hope to get lucky. There's also a few useful items they can forge.

The Guru at 160G and 2S 1N is a good mage. They're the only national mage that is capable of summoning Asparas. In battle they can use decent spells like Healing Light and Protection and Panic, and more devestating spells like Mind Burn, Paralyze, Swarm, and Horror Mark which are capable of downing stronger enemies easily. Their big drawback, however, is their limited movement range at 1. They'll probably slow your army down, so use with caution.

These two can use use Communion Master/Slave which, for the demo, I don't really find necessary, but the option is there.

The Yaksha, coming in at a whopping 360G and 3E 1N 1H 1?(random) is probably the best mage for this nation. He can naturally cast Blade Wind and Legions of Steel, which are excellent spells in the early age. Curse of Stones is also nice for keeping the enemy at range to be pelted by arrows. Ironskin is a good spell for personal protection.

The Yakshini, also expensive at 360G for 3W 1N 1H 1? is not bad, and the main reason why I didn't take the Mother of Rivers as she can find water sites. In Dom 2 a water mage of sufficient power could breathe underwater, however due to a bug or perhaps design at this time she cannot, however perhaps in a patch it will be possible and add another piece of utility to this mage. Anyway, some of the more useful spells available to her are Quickness, Barkskin, Eagle Eyes, and Protection for buffs, and Encase in Ice, Numbness, Sailor's Death, and Curse of the Desert for offense.

Depending on the randoms also, there's a host of other spells available.

Forging

There are many useful items available to this nation. Ice Pebble Staff, Summer Sword, Vine Bow and the like are good for commanders without magic to give them something to do in safety. Thistle Mace and Ivy Crown are good for Vine Ogres if you want them. Shambler Skin Armor is good to get in the water. Pendant of Luck and Antimagic Amulet are good for a lot of your Magic Beings who are vunerable to low level spells that will kill them instantly, Spell Focus is great for anyone who uses magic. The Earth Boots are good for your Yakshas who are casting Blade Wind. Ring of Regen is great for your pretender especially.

Magic

What paths to pursue depend on what you want to do with your nation. Conjuration is a must if you want to get underwater, you can get a huge army using Summon Sea Dogs quickly. Conjuration is also good if you want calvary, as Ambush of Tigers can give you that, and Asparas are free sacred troops which you will always be limited in producing. This is the school I'd pursue first, at least to Asparas.

Alteration is a good school to pursue, many of your buffs come from here early. Body Ethereal, Protection, and Swarm are great spells. Encase in Ice is nice as well as Ironskin.

Evocation is not bad, Blade Wind is worth it. There's also a lot of other spells your mages can cast to do direct damage. Fires from Afar is a good spell too.

Construction is a great school. In addition to the many items you'll want to equip on commands, Legions of Steel comes with this school which is a great spell to open combat with.

Thaumaturgy has some really great astral spells in it, like Paralyze, Mind Burn, and Horror Mark. Panic and Curse are also good spells. If you plan on using Gurus much, this school is definately worth it.

Enchantment can be put off for the most part, Strength of Giants is about it in there, unless you took the recommended F9 pretender. Flame Arrows and Fire Shield are excellent spells from this school, Flame Arrows alone will make your army of archers devestating, however basically useful only to your pretender in the demo.

General Strategy

Your army is mobile and generally takes few losses. Using that to your advantage means fielding large amounts of troops are replaces the losses quickly with your ability to traverse the map, so perhaps castling isn't as necessary and that money is better spent on troops. You also should have plenty of scouts out observing what your enemy is doing and what kinds of troops he/she is fielding. Taking time to plan routes and avoid rough terrain is essential if you want to take advantage of the fast troops you have available to you.

Closing

Kailasa is a staightforward nation, with a few options. I'd recommend this nation to a beginner in the demo as you get to use a variety of troop types and schools of magic. Playing them successfully doesn't require complete mastery of tactics or the game, but it give you a basic idea on practically everything and a good foundation to try some more complicated and difficult tactics.

Any input/corrections are welcome. Thanks.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Nice work. The Wiki could use this one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

When you mention Thaumaturgy, don't forget Sailors' Death. The Yakshini can cast it, and a respectable amount of armor-negating damage can be very much worth it. It's also one of the few battle spells the Yakshini have in the demo.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Good catch.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Also, I meant to ask: Nerfix, what is the url of the wiki? That'd be something I'd like to take a look at!

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

About the Bandar Archers : they kind'a suck *but* have long bows ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

The armoured or unarmoured ones? The different eras of the monkey people have great Hold&Attack units.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

In EA the archers are all unarmored.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Good point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

While the Yavana Archers are weaker in melee than the armored Yavanas, some blessed like W9 Def and Quickness affect both. Even if that isn't optimal use of Kailasa's sacreds, I've had a fun time trying.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I don't think I'm Nerfix, but is this what you mean? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I like Kailasa. There's a lot of room to play around with it. It reminds me of Machaka from Dom 2, which was my favorite nation to use for a long time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

It is.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Awesome, thanks for the link.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

No problem, I should put my Atlantis and Agartha guides there someday.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I'd like to read that! I'm having trouble getting Atlatis rolling myself.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I'm curious as to why both of your example pretenders are awake. Some pretender designs that I have considered/tryed (since I'm stuck with the bloody effing demo - where is the mailman!?!?!) are imprisonned bless god - you can go prety crazy, especially if you settle for sub-optimal scales. Turmoil 2, Sloth 3, Heat 3, Luck 2, Dom Strength 7, Phoenix with Fire 9, Air 7 (Air shield is great, since Yavanas have to armour to speak of) Nature 6 (Regneration is fun!) Admitedly, I wouldn't play that in a multiplayer game, but it's tons of fun for single player. Higher difficulty computers can do quite well against it, since the scales aren't too great (for better multiplayer/more tradiotal style you could swap turmoil and luck for order and misfortune) I feel that a powerfull bless is incredibly important for Kalisa. I usually use nature, air, fire or water. Also note that dragons are considered to be abjectly useless. They are same as stock Dom2, and really alost certainly not owrth it, except for early expansion. Since you will want a high dominion strength to build lots of sacreds, they are especially bad, since dominion, like magic, increases in cost exponentially. I HATE dragons, they are so clich�. even if they were good, I wouldn't take one, so I may not be spot on about their worth, but I think I'm fairly close.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I went with an awake dragon for precisely the reason you stated: Early expansion. The demo is only 40 turns max and it can effectively double your expansion speed and it's easy to put to F9 so it's a big research boost (18 points) in the beginning if you want that instead. On Indy 7 I find that you could take a small risk and attack on turn one if you want as there's not many indys that can take a dragon, they're pretty tough with no gem investment. Initial dominion is a bit of a problem, however with the scales I have set building temples is pretty easy with spare cash after a few turns.

I actually just got my full copy today, so I might rethink the pretender for a longer game, but the dragon isn't too bad. You don't have to trash your scales or leave it dormant or imprisoned to get a decent awake pretender with a good bless that can research or attack with low risk as needed immediately. Later in the game you can shape change it into a mage with all slots and a heck of a lot of hit points if you want. I don't think they're as bad as people make them out to be. Especially with a 40 turn cap.

Your suggestions aren't bad either, they're certainly an option. I wanted to keep it as basic as possible though as it's written for new players mostly who are having trouble understanding the game and a bless strategy that gives them a hard time fielding troops because of bad scales would, I feel, give them a tougher time.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

It can be found here:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=1

Warriors of the Deep are great unless you face MR negates spells. Shamblers of the Deep can be great also. But they have really weak MR. So keep that in mind.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Another good link, thanks.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

This nation seems to be all about missiles. I have put together a pretender with fire and air and plan to research up to Flaming Arrows and Wind Guide. The national mages are not well set up for those spells, thus the pretender with those paths.

You could get a lucky random, then a forged item and Phoenix Pyre and the Air equivalent, but that would come fairly late in the game. That is why I am counting on a pretender who can back up at least one army with the spells.

What are people�s thoughts on this idea, a powerful missile force made up of cheap archers that hit all the time with flaming missiles? Any other ideas for boosting their power?

Also tied to this nation, let me ask for thoughts on a related issue. My immediate neighbor Helheim, who have troops with good defense and protection, as well as shields, if memory serves. They are very good at dealing with missile fire and deal with my infantry rather well, rapidly moving on to the archers. Until I get Flaming Arrows, how do I deal with the heavy amour nations?

As a final note, I look forward to seeing the monkeys throw sticks and stones with Wind Guide and Flaming Arrows! Sure, it is not sensible, but it is such a cool idea!

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Helheim does actually have nice protection for EA. Prot 12 is good for EA, and they have both shields AND mirror image effect from Glamour. Someone'll probably tell you that Helheim is overpowered and scary and will kill you whatever you do, but actually that only happens if you play against one of the more skilled players.

If you click on the random, you'll notice that neither Yakshas or Yakshinis can get Air or Fire random, only one of Water, Earth, Astral and Nature. Some of their national summons come with Air. Kinnara is the first one IIRC, a flying A2H2 or H3 mage or so. You'll have more troubles getting Fire.

Phoenix Power is the Fire booster. Phoenix Pyre has altogether different use... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Storm Power, the air booster, only works during Storms which hamper missiles, so going that rout won't actually give you anything.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

As always, the Northerner has good information! Sorry, I got the Phoenixes mixed up and did not realize I can find out more about the randoms. Very good to know.

Helheim does look pretty good, but until my full version shows up, I can not see the costs of their units. I suspect there is some balance in that area, as their numbers seem pretty low in general. They can be beaten back, you just have to work a bit harder at it. I will be playing more with the earth spells that slow troops down, as the monkey�s have lots of earth magic and slowing down charging troops is generally useful for archers. An extra volley or two on Helheim would be nice�

Hmm, no air booster spell without storms... However, if I can summon a A2, that is enough for Wind Guide. I forget the exact effect of WG, so I am not sure how much it boosts precision. I used it in Dom2 and was not amazed, it was Flaming Arrows that impressed me more. Still, I am looking for any ideas on how to boost my archers. The sheer cheapness of the little monkeys can lead to massive armies and if I can improve their effectiveness, even a small percentage, the nation could be very dangerous. I suspect beta testing found this strategy too powerful, thus the limiting of the national mages getting those paths. I will also look for mercenaries with air or fire.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

One way to deal with them is to cast spells that destroy their armor and hold them in place. Armor of Achilles and later Destruction should help your arrows land more often, and Earth Grip and Later Earth Meld, as well as Tangle Vines, Vine Arrow, Sleep, and Sleep Cloud will pin them down. You might also consider Mind Burning them too, that ignores armor. Bringing Bandar Archers who have long bows will make the battles shorter too.

But, to make the Flaming Arrows/Wind Guide you'd probably have to design a pretender especially for it. It's not a bad idea as they do have the archers to do it, but I think there's better nations for it. However, the spells listed above that help hold the enemy army in one place and destroy their armor is pretty similar and easier to do.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

That is a nice list of �slow �em down and wear them down� spells, I shall see what I can do. If you have a reasonable number of infantry, even heavy infantry from random provinces, their screening job is a lot easier if only half the enemy hits at once and half their armour is gone.

You say other nations are better at an archer based strat. Who did you have in mind? Also, given the tilt towards archers with the monkeys, I was wondering if you saw another way forward with them that did not use a lot of archers? Were you thinking lots of summons in the mid and late game? I am playing with ideas on this nation right now and welcome everyone�s thoughts!

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I'm still experimenting on how to make Kaisala EA sacred "usable" : with 1 (!!) prot it's not that obvious, plus the fact that the archers don't benefit from the Fire blessing (it only affects melee weapons...).

So currently the only idea I have is to have F9-blessed Yavanas made survivable by Protection (from Guru), Body Eth (Yogi), then Iron Warriors (Yaksha).
Not very effective, nor very fast, and difficult to properly succeed as you rely on AoE1 buffs ...
And even then they can be easily slaughtered by any sustained archer fire ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

As for Yavanas archers they are just overpriced longbowmen with very good precision but no armor, I think I'd rather field 4 Atavis Archers vs 1 Yavana for the same cost.
As Kaisala has no easy access to Wind Guide and more importantly to Flaming Arrows I don't think you can rely on archer strategies.

Do I miss stg ?

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

What I meant was the Flaming Arrows/Wind Guide strat, but none of them are available in the demo (I think). Man is always a good choice for an archer nation as they can cast Wind Guide, and Machaka can mass cheap archers and they have fire picks so Flaming Arrows is easy to cast and has a good effect. An archer strat is viable with Kailasa, you just have to play it differently or build a pretender for it.

And the Bandar Swordsmen isn't a bad heavy infantry, you might find better but odds are it'll be a while before you can recruit anything better in mass.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

There has got to be a way to get the archers going. After all, what can we do otherwise? I agree, the sacreds are less than ideal, the protection is rough. My pretender has air 4, so I get that blessing that sheilds them from 20% of arrows, but that only helps the archers. Their infantry is nothing special, which is why I am trying to get the swarms of archers up and running.

I must say, the swarm of archers does make a real mess of the other nations with low protection, it is those damn people with metal sheilds...

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Kailasa's sacreds have Awe and semihigh defence though, IIRC.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

W9 bless gives Yavana Archers 1.5 longbow attacks with their higher precision compared to 3.5 attacks of Atavi, or almost 2 bandar. It mightn't be cost-effective, but I used them for Hold&Attack. Awe and high defense worked well enough until my enemy recruited insane amounts of Archers, and then I lost. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
The lesser Death effect, increased amounts of afflictions, works with ranged weapons. That might work too, but Kailasa's access to various Astral spells and Petrification can deal with most SCs; they don't really need the minor boost Death would provide.

Kailasa has access to very good sacred units in the Gandharva of Conjuration 5. They are expensive, but have wonderful protection, especially for EA.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Sorry, no report on Wind Guide. I got Atlantis, Tein Chi and Helheim, each attacking on a different front and my game folded�

However, I did want to report that the Bandar infantry, the one with high protection due to amour, held up very well. I think I have been under rating them and in EA, they are an excellent unit. I was able to face down Helheim several times, even though their infantry is also excellent.

I also found the Luck and Body Ethereal spamming with the cheap mages to be quite effective for all classes of units. As I had the archers up front with the infantry, the spells hit everyone and in a close battle, it rapidly becomes apparent who has received the spell. It may be viable to use blessed infantry with awe and these support spells to good effect. Protection also seemed to take effect at longer ranges, which was helpful once the Hold in Hold and Attack was over.

The �slow them down� spells tended to be of limited value, as the range was short and I rarely had a mass casting of the spell. However, I did not get to experiment much with this and may have missed good spells.

Still looking for a solid strategy for this nation, particularly a good use of the cheap archers, suggestions welcome.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Been playing around with Kailasa recently, and imo a w9 bless is great, the only weakness as mentioned previously, is massed archers, however that can be rectified with an accompanying air bless, arrow fend, storm. Or simply set up a screen and amass long bows to pelt the opposing archers.

With regards to problems expanding without a combat pretender. Once you get 10+ Yavana's backed by missle troops (sticks n stones or bows) you'll roll over indy's (even hvy cav) without any problems. So ideally to compensate for the slow start you'll want to have a couple of these packs of Yavana's running about.

Imo opinion the most important goals to strive for are to get a second fort up so that you can make sacreds from two places, and to research conj5 for gandharvas (great units) giving you access to 3 good melee sacreds.

Note: To help with starting expansion I like to go markata archers and atavi infantry. The bandar commander becomes the prophet scripted sermon of co. x2 then holy avenger and smitex2. Have both the archers and inf on fire closest, and position them parallel to each other to avoid cross fire. Most importantly tho, started pumping out yavana's by turn 3, and get a yaksha on your second turn.

Some interesting pretender choices.

Awake Nataraja W9
dom5
ord2
sloth3
heat2
misfortune1
magic2

It's very important to research construction 2, followed by alt2. You can either take your chances and have him help fight in the beginning (he can take Yavana's who will do most of the fighting to minimize the chance of him getting wounded) or have him sit and research construction 2 in ~5 turns. Once construction 2 is done fill up his equipment slots with cheap gear, and let him loose! He can easily have a defense skill over 30, a pendant of luck, a tower shield, and 4 attacks if he's given a horned helmet. Once alteration 2 is researched he can cast quicken self.

Dormant Destroyer of Worlds A7W9D2

dom6
order2
sloth3
heat3
misfortune1

A great dual bless for kailasa's sacreds. Once he wakes up you'll have a solid spellcaster/ranged attacker, and ready access to air magic.

*Mother of Rivers

You can easily get a w9 a7 bless and good scales with her if she's dormant, or you can minimize the bless/scales and have her awake. She's a guaranteed source of water gems, which will allow you to better use yakshini's, and help you expand under the sea.

Dormant Lady of Fortune S9W9

dom6
order2
sloth3
heat2
misfortune1

I don't know how well the twist of fate with go with the blessed troops, however she can lead armies underwater.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

We have a necromancer in the forums I believe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Thank you for this valuable information though.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I would not get a water bless with kailasa, as you can cast celestial music and then get quickness for free. And the quickness from the W9 bless does not stack with the quickness from celestial music. so everything you will have left from w9 is a +4 to defence.

I would use arrow fend, wit conj6 you can summon kinnaras, who are able to cast arrow fend. In the early game you can use markata decoys to eat the arrows while expanding, in the midgame ghandarvas are heavy enough armoured to witstand enemy archers.

Just use markata archers as decoys, and the yavanas can enter into meelee withoug taking too much damage from archers. For kailasa heavy cav is no problem anyway due to awe. But i would really watch out to the provinces that have much archers.

I would also get some evoc early, as your mages can cast either falling frost or blade wind without problems.

I would not use archers, as they are just creating friendly fire on your sacreds, or only use archers when you use them without sacreds. (or only ghandarvas)

For a pretender, i would go with an imprisoned oracle.

Scales
order 3 --> you need the money
sloth 3 --> you need no ressources
heat 3 --> you can take heat 3, and you will still have heat 2 in most of your provinces.
growth 0
luck 0
magic 1 --> +33% research is quite nice
dom 5 --> early on you wont have more money, later you will have temples and other castles to recruit sacreds

Blessing:
S9: twist fate and MR are nice, and with S9 your pretender has some wish-fu ready (and yakshinis can clam out of the box)
either F9 or N9 -> f9 makes you offensive quite strong, as all your sacreds have 2 attacks, and will be quickened later on
N9 can increase your survivability and as your sacreds have 20 hp it actually works
either N4 or E4
E4 is nice as all your mages are sacred, and it will also reduce fatigue problems on the sacreds
N4 gives some regen

if you dare to go to missfortune 3 (remember the monkey PD) you can take both E4 and N4.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I never noticed this, but Celestial Music doesn't stack with W9 bless. I always thought CM was just Quickness effect from other spell - so does that mean that spell Quickness and bless DON'T stack?

It's interesting, because going through the archives I found threads that kept on answering that yes, bless and spell quickness do stack, and also that no, bless and celestial music don't stack. Also, no one ever seemed to know just how bless and magic quickness stack.

Has anyone actually used them together?


EDIT: Kristoffer thinks they stack, though. Scroll down a few posts, I didn't manage to link directly to his post.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I tested it and they did not stack, with W9 bless and celestial music, my sacreds did just had their AP doubled, if it would have stacked they should have been tripled.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Counting on cm means that you'll have to research thau6 and have an s3 caster. Even if the quickness doesn't stack with a w9 bless, having quickness early on really helps the early expansion. I'd rather go to conj5 and have the w9 bless.

I don't feel that cm + w9 bless is a waste, since it also diversifies who's leading your sacreds. You can either bless or cm to essentially the same effect (assuming you have a straight w9 bless).

I just put my archers on 'fire archers'...

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Besides, +3 att/def +4 def works pretty well together, especially as Kailasa's sacreds have multiple attacks and everyone except Gandharvas have high base defense. Even Gandharvas can evade some attacks after both boosts.

Any way, I'd like more discussion about the fact that bless and quickness don't stack. I and Hadrian both tested it, and water bless and Celestial Music don't stack. If no one has actualyl benefitted from stacking different kinds of quicknesses, we'll have to bump some recent question threads and start the re-education.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

Tested with W9 and Marverni Boar Warriors.


Initial stats (not blessed):

Basic Action Points 12, Current Action Points 10


Blessed:

Basic Action Points 12, Current Action Points 15
Defense+4


Blessed and Quickness (spell):

Basic Action Points 12, Current Action Points 20
Defense+7, Attack+3


Just Quickness (spell):

Basic Action Points 12, Current Action Points 20
Defense+3, Attack+3


Endo, you are right, there is no stacking of AP bonus from Bless and Quickness spell.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

To see equipment effects, I tested with Bune the Sacred Ice Devil:

Initial Stats:

Basic Action Points 14, Current Action Points 14


Wearing Jade Armor:

Basic Action Points 14, Current Action Points 20
Defense+3, Attack+3


Wearing Jade Armor and Blessed:

Basic Action Points 14, Current Action Points 20
Defense+7, Attack+3


Wearing Jade Armor and Blessed and Quickness spell:

Impossible, refuses to cast Quickness while wearing Jade Armor.


Conclusion: As Endo found, the only stacking that you get from a W9 bless and any other kind of quickness is an additional +4 defense from the bless, in addition to all the quickness bonuses from the spell.

Special note: Quickness does stack with Cold Power. So instead of +1 AP for a cold-1 scale, you get +2 AP if quickness is in effect.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I never had any problems with expansion, if i go with dom5 i can start expansion partys with 15 yavanas and about 20-30 markata decoys and usually just loose the decoys (3-6 per battle) and no more that 1 yavana.

You are stronger with a water bless early on that with other blesses, but as you are not too strong early on, this is not really an issue, i would better look that everything i can get stacks nicely together afer i have it.

In my opinion, even then they do more damage to you than to the enemy.

Re: Demo Guide to Kailasa
 

I tried playing Kailasa for the first time recently and seem to have a somewhat different take from what has been written so far on this thread. I am only playing SP, so maybe that is the reason for the variance - but I suspect not and so hope that it would be helpful to present my views.

Kailasa really sucks at first glance. The problem with Kailasa is finding a way to survive in the early game. I would imagine that this could be even more acute in MP. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the starting army is woefully weak and the PD is also weak. The only recruitable troop with any protection is the Bandar Warrior with 10, and the Atavi Archer is worse than most indies in a straight fight - barely compensated by its 1GP lower cost and survival/stealth capability. To rely on it as a key strategy is to admit defeat in making Kailasa work.

So what does Kailasa have to compensate for its glaring weakness and how can these be make to help it survive in the early game? In my opinion Kailasa's strength - or at lease its key differences from other nations - lies in its sacreds, its national summons, and its mages. The last two won't help its early survival. So we are left with the sacreds to find a way to make Kailasa competitive in the early game. The possibility of an awake SC Pretender has been considered and rejected - and I shall address it later.

Kailasa's sacreds have the same glaring weakness as its other national troops - no armour (BTW, that means Legions of steel won't help). As it stands Kailasa has no answer to the standard enemy formation of archers screened by infantry with shields because Kailasa's own screens are inadequate even after taking into consideration of its cheap size 1 Markatas. It has been mentioned that researching "wind guide" and "flaming arrows" is the way to go but other nations can do it better and it becomes unstuck against "arrow fend". Kailasa has no answer to arrow fend as it has no recruitable air mages. So it can easily be overrun by the likes of Vanheim and Helheim - who happens to be strong in the early game. Some of you might have already guessed what I am getting at: air bless. To be precise, an A9 bless as the 70% protection is needed to compensate for the poor missile defense of its other troops and the lightning protection gives it needed "advantage" or improved survivability against air nations - like Vanheim/Helheim. Since Kailasa has no recruitable H3 mages, this does mean it needs lots of priests to field more than one effective major army. however, this should not be a problem in the early game - and early game survival is the key for Kailasa. Later on H3 mages can be summoned (S4 required). Another needed measure to improve survivability in the early game is to have good scales, since Kailasa needs superiority in numbers to augment the limited supply of sacreds.

This brings me to address the issue of an awake SC Pretender. The problem with an awake SC Pretender is that one has to give up on one or both of the following: A9 bless and good scales. In my opinion this would be too much of an handicap to its middle/end game, as well as failure to properly utilize its sacreds.

My choice of Kailasa's Pretender would be A9W4 at a minimum for magic to make the sacreds effective. For scales O3 and H3 and M1 (at least) are no-brainers. I would also use an imprisoned pretender to max out its early game ability (through blesses and scales) - you can see that I am obsessed with Kailasa's early game survival, and I do think that it is warranted. The rest of Pretender design would be trade-offs and depends on individual preferences and playing style. I have deliberately refrained from a specific recommendation as I have only just started trying to play Kailasa and have yet to come out with a definite "best" design.

The issue of the starting army also needs to be addressed. It is very weak in combat but not bad as patrollers. I would use them in the first few turns patrolling the capital and turning tax up to 140% to speed up the building of the second (real) army and hiring mercs for expansion Unless of course you are lucky enough to have a high income province defended by weak indies next to your capital and no mercs are available! I have also toyed with the idea of recruiting a Yaksha immediately and make it your Prophet but have not yet come to a final decision yet. Your initial "real" army should ideally be made up of Markatas (a few in front on fire archers as first screen and the rest in reserve guarding commanders), Yavanas on hold and attack or Yavana archers on fire closest as a second screen, Bandar swdsmen as main melee troops and final screen, backed up by light Bandar archers and Atavi archers as well as some Bandar warriors at the very back (so that it won't get into enemy missile range too soon).

Alone the same theme, Alt3 should be researched ASAP to get body ethereal, protection, and moss body - much needed to improve the survivability of your troops in melee. Unless, of course, you have a Yaksha with a W1 pick, in which case Evo2 (rust mist) is quicker. Thau4 (paralyse) would also be a top priority if you have giants or awake Pretenders as neighbours. Alt4 is nice (luck, destruction, swarm in addition to wind guide) and only a short way from Alt3, but if not in a war already or have one looming I would after Alt3 go straight to conjuration5 to get Gandhavas. After that you would be fully competitive.