Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Putting together some various bits and pieces of information I'm starting to come up with a somewhat disturbing big picture.

What I know (based on AARs and discussions in this forum),
1. SCs are nerfed. Life drain only drains 5 first hp and only recover fatigue. Buffs are nerfed (they come with a vulnerability price tag). Morale is changed so that SCs can route if wounded.

2. Mages are nerfed. Range for many damage dealing spells is reduced. Favorite spells like quickness, relief and false horror (to name a few, probably there are more) are nerfed.

I assume that there are probably more changes towards those two directions. I'm starting to get worried about this:
First, I don't see why (or rather don't like the fact that) mages and spells got nerfed across the board in dom-III. Mages were already expensive enough in dom-II and their usefulness was severely limited by their frailty (in general, there exceptions of course). IMO nerfing mages them takes some of the fun from the game.

Second thing that for me is more disturbing yet more difficult to pinpoint, I am always wary when game developers start to take the nerf route to balance. As I see it, balance in complex environments such as strat. games can be achieved in two opposite ways, simplicity and complexity. Simplicity is making more factors and mechanisms work the same way (IMO, AOW-SM is a good example for a game that was heavily based on this approach). Complexity is achieving balance by making any given strat. useful in a very specific (not common) circumstance and counterable by a given set of counters. This can be achieved in games that are reach with features and mechanisms.

I think that dom-II has achieved pretty good balance in that approach. No given strat. was overpowering due to the complexity of the game and the existence of many counters. Even SCs that ppl have complained a lot about have many counters (stealth armies, Anti SCs, SC killing spells to name a few). I love dominions for being a complex and rich game in which balance is achieved not in obvious ways. I consider nerfing to be an easy way to achieve balance that, if used excessively, can take a lot of the fun out of dominions. I am worried that my favorite game will go that path.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Well, the severe Quickness nerf was rather extreme, but then again, Quickness + spell spamming was considered a pretty much must-have tactic.

I do have my concerns, namely Astral magic being even more deadlier, Water & Fire magic being even weaker and some nations suffering excessively from the spellcasting nerfs or not having sufficient ways of countering enemies due magic restriction, but I don't have the game so I can't judge...yet.

EDIT: But bottom line is, Dominions players have always managed to find ways to adapt to the game.

I vaguely remember the time when Caelum was considering weak in Dominions I, and then someone came and beat everyone with it. Black Forest Ulm was considered worthless in Dom II, then people started using VQ's. Spring and Autumn was considered a weak theme of a "hopeless" nation, and yet people had succes with it. False Horrors replaced the elemental spam of Dom I. Servants of Darkness came in place of teleporting a Sphinx on top of your enemy.

I'm sure the players will be smart enough to adapt to the new situation.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Why do you think this?

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Thanks for the correction. It appears that they do not recover fatigue. This makes the change even more nerfing than I thought.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Hi, I don't think you need to worry too much. Worries are only good for getting stomach pains.

Part of this this might sound stupid, so don't take it too seriously http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
1) SC's are not nerfed. Several mechanics that were unbalanced have been reworked. This has affected SC's (this was the part that sounds stupid).

Lifedraining weapons is the one thing that more or less directly was targeted against SC's. The lifedrain nerf was introduced to add flexibility. Now there is a reason to use other weapons. Lifedrain is still useful and fun, but not the only way to build an SC.

The morale system is remade to be more transparent. The mechanics are described in detail in the manual and should be a lot more comprehensible than before. The reworked morale affects single commanders, but I think that is OK. Even though I like the concept of a dragon conquering a province by itself, I dislike the fact thet a single scout could. Now the scout is an unlikely conqueror, but the dragon still might conquer said province.

2) Mages in general are not nerfed. Several spells are. Other spells are boosted. You do not need to worry about them either. You'll be less likely to cast False Horror in every battle, but more likely to cast Air Elemental. Give and take. Both are hopefully useful in many circumstances.

Independent mages are nerfed and more importantly national mages have been defined. Randoms are no longer fully random. This makes national mages slightly more powerful in their national magic, but keeps the distinction between nations longer in the games.


There are probably more changes towards these directions, as well as changes against these directions. I hope you will find the game enjoyable.


Your second fear:
Dom2 was never balanced. Dom3 will not be either, but we have tried to look at some balance problems of dom2 to make dom3 not suffer from lack of possible strategies. It took players quite long time to find the winning strategies in dom2, but they were found. Hopefully it will takle even longer to find them in dom3, and I hope there are more possible options and strategies in dom3.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Who said? It does still drain fatigue.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

That was not was I was getting at. It still drains both. I was wondering why you thought it only drained fatigue, rather than fatigue and hp.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

There are other ways to recover fatigue. Some new items, e.g..

And you may rest assured that neither mages nor spells have been nerfed into oblivion with Dom3. With 3 different ages, with the early one having a higher default site setting and more, cheaper and more versatile mages, and the latest with more restricted pathes, there has been even more complexity introduced into Dom3.

And don't forget about the new spells, mostly nation-specific ones.

Lifedraining weapons, quickness-driven skelspamming and other things got nerfed because they were really unbalanced no-brainers in Dom2. Note: they are still available, but weaker in Dom3. There might be other possibilities now which are as good in certain situations - which haven't been there in Dom2.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

I agree about this, but it isn't my concern. My concern is about specific changes that I dislike (like quickness) and more generally that the nerf "sword" may have been applied too freely and severely in the name of balance.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

About life drain change I have read some comments on the proposed change but never was certain about the exact details (the last comment I've read is in this forum at, http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...2&fpart=1)

@Kristoffer, Thanks for your response, I find it reassuring.

And seriously, there's no way I'm not going to enjoy dom-III anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Dominions 2 was hugely unbalanced, Dominions 3 will be also, just in different ways. You can't balance a game with over a thousand units and hundreds of spells and items. That's what makes Dominions great.

On the other hand, it's just common sense to make clearly "best" tactics that hinge on a couple of overpowered spells or items less powerful in the next iteration of the series. Who wants to play exactly the same game forever?

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

1. Life drain needed to be reduced. I saw WAY too many SC builds using life draining weapons, meaning most people thought it was "best". Besides, it makes no sense that a weapon drains more life because someone is stronger. It's the magic in the weapon that does the draining, not the creature! The protective spells having weaknesses is great, because it's a built in Achilles heel that requires you to alter your strategy a little. You have to simply be careful which ones you use, that's all.

2. I bet none of us will miss mages with quickness once we play Dom III. Again, it is one of those lame strategies that is simply too good. I mean, who WOULDN'T want their mages casting 2x as many spells? I do agree that reducing the range of combat spells would be poor judgement. Mainly because it will necessitate more battle micro-management. I never thought the elemental spells were too powerful, and I thought astral magic was powerful enough in Dom II. I never used false horror, so I have no comment.

=$=

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Actually, it would be nice if lifedrain was a variable weapon property. That way the cheap ones like Wraith Blades could only drain 5, but perhaps there would be artifact weapons with much higher drains.

Too late for version 3.00, but maybe in a patch.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

The mid evocation area elemental damage spells have been very good in dom2.
Falling fires and magma eruption especially.

With the range nerf they are no longer a nobrainer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Especially magma eruption was great. In Dom2 not many nations could cast it, but in Dom3 Argatha and Man Late Era e.g. can cast magma eruption too.
Now with the reduced range you have to consider whether you use those spells or rather do something else like skelly spamming with your argatha necros e.g. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

If a magma eruption hits it is still deadly and can easily kill 10 enemy troops at once.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Whenever i get a new game and go looking for the path to Ulitimate Power i start my search with four things- flight, invisability, life drain, and speed. The nature of these powers makes them hard to balance, and smart game designers are right to examine them closely. Wraith's post is very articulate, and I understand his worry, yet I do think he jumped the gun. Life drain did need a nerf, and quickness was at least worth a hard look since it makes the quickened unit twice as good, more or less.

In a game as wide as this one, true balance is not a realitic goal. Better goals are to try to make sure that there are many viable strategies and few useless features. DomII did a fine job on the first, and the second is less important.

Now here is my worry about balance in 3. Sounds like differntiating the nations was a big design goal, and that ups the ante on balance issues. In DomII there was an evolution during a given game away from your store bought troops and mages such that if you made it to the late game you likely had a little of nearly everything. If that's less true in 3 it raises the chances of bad match ups (ie there's a counter to your enemies plan, but you can't do it), and means that new nation stuff itself needs to be thouroughly thought out and tested.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

If the races would be perfectly balanced, the various races would loose their real point: the diversity.
I never had problems with this in Doms 2. Simply because you also need luck to win. No luck = no win. Luck is much more important compared to the race imbalance.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

I agree with the second part of your statement. though I would have liked it if sometimes instead of nerfing there would have been an additional counter to a "best" tactic. For example, quickness may have been balanced by a slow spell or a spell that deals damage only to quickened critters etc. Nerfing as the sole key to balance makes things more boring (imho).

As to the first statement (dom-II is unbalanced), I think it requires a closer look. What do you mean by unbalanced?- Most of the nations and themes were balanced, and each successful strategy had it's counters. I have played countless hours both SP and MP and it never failed to amaze me how for each great strat. that I've found there was also a counter.

Thank you for both the compliment and the critique http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Sure, I may have been to early to state my worry, but my opinion is that its better to bring things into the open rather than harbor them. I agree about life drain, yet about quickness I still have some doubts, after all its use was offset by fatigue and, to top it,it was one of the key spells to the otherwise relatively weak water spell school.


Ahmmm... I find your concern quite plausible, hopefully the community will help report such possible bad match ups, so that they get fixed in patches.

All in all, I'm very encouraged by the replies here. They represent a very good attitude and keen insight, so I'm positive that the game is in good hands.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Well, in some games adding counters like the ones you suggested may work, but this is Dominions where often the spellcasting AI selects poor spells. Would the casting AI be smart enough to make the choice to shoot off a counterspell in an aproriate moment?

I doubt it. Thus taking in the Nerf Sword is pretty much the only choice. That or having yet again 20 nin pages long threads about how Caelum and it's quickened lightning shooters eat through everybdoy. That or skelly spam.

Now, that said, I wonder what they've added to make the Water magic worthwhile. Quickness and Clams were both admitedly overpowered, but they were pretty much all Water had.

What now?

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

All kinds of things. Naiads, Kokythos, Catoblepas, Asp Turtles, ancient undead unfrozen from glaciers...

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

Tell me more about them. They sound cute and fuzzy. Especially the undead, kind of reminds me of this one Warcraft III game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/4072/naiadrv2.jpg

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/5638/naiad2wt9.jpg

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

By biggest question about nerfing:

Has QM been nerfed? Or is he still completely awesome (signs point to yes) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

QM is still awesome of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif. Fortunately he is not as familiar with Dom3 yet as with Dom2. And the SC and mage nerfs nerfed some of QMs greatest strategies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

Re: Excessive mage nerfing in dom-III (?)
 

QM, as in quantum mechani? His Frozen Frogzards will pwn you and then eat your heads as chilly desserts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif