SC\'s vs Thugs
 

What is the line that seperates a thug from an SC? I would assume HP's have a lot to do with it, but as both terms are used to categorize a large number of units, I still don't know what makes a SC a SC.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

an SC is generally fully kitted out with great gear and capable of destroying most armys single handed, a thug often only has a few items, can handle indies and small armies usually but are often used in groups (with berserk so they dont flee if possible) as they lack the ability of SCs.

Thug Example: banelord with lifedrain weapon/high defense weapon+charcoal shield and a lucky pendant (and maybesomething for berserking)

SC example: Tartarian with a good shield and weapon, horror helm, high protection armour with low def reduction, boots of quickness/flying shoes, lucky pendant and ring of regen.

SCs can also be between these 2 examples and scs also often have self buffs (such as golems, which are one of ym favourite SCs)

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Rumor has it that a true SC must be dubbed thus by the esteemed Saber Cherry, for whom the title was originated.

Seriously, there was an old thread about this sort of thing sometime last fall. Compare your guy to those, and see if it's worthy. I would say true SC can take out common level 9 indies singlehandedly without a wound. Thugs can take out level 3 to 6 by themselves, but operate better in groups (equipped banelords come to mind). A real SC should be a nightmare to almost any army without specialized magic to deal with it (magic weapons, soul slay casters).

At least that's how I understand the terms.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

yea, SCs aare almost always very tough fully decked out commanders in the best gear, or units that are so naturaly powerful that it is hard to take them even with 1-2 items (a gift of reasoned vastness or doom horror with a ring of regen and lucky pendant/antimagic amulet rocks and only costs a little after wish and GoR compared to say ettin mandragoras)

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

It is a subjective measure.

One way to look at this is once your attack, prot, and defense start get into the mid to high twenties, you've got an sc. In the low twenties maybe its more of a thug. Also, SCs usually have some decent magic to buff with, thugs not as often.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I like to draw the line thusly:
A thug is simply effective against regular troops, to the point at which it is most efficiently dealt with via unconventional spells/tactics.
An SC, in contrast, is completely immune to regular troops. Barring the 50/100 turn limit, outrageous statistical improbability, or hostile magical intervention, an SC will never, ever, under any circumstances succumb to an army of nationals(excepting sacreds) and/or most low-end summons, no matter that army's size. Ye Olde Selfe Buffing Ghost King and Air Queen are good examples of such a SCs: sending a regular army against them, even one worth thousands of gold, is utterly futile.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Where would Bogus the Troll fall on the scale?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I don't know about Bogus, but the Dark Knight falls on "cheesy". He knows his tactics: he only attacks commanders! I'm not sure if its magic-users or commanders in general, but its rather extraordinary, either way.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

There are some exeptions. Illithids can luck e.g. with their paralyze mind blow, Jotuns can also be lucky and kill a SC.
Then there are some troops with alternative attacks, like web+poison from the machaka spiders.
Ulm arlabests can also luck, pythium hydras maybe too.

Even 100 black knights might get some lucky lance hits and kill the enemy SC. And don't forget Ulms capitol only guardians, they have magical weapons, good strength and good weapon damage.

So i would say a SC can take down normally any reasonable army. But 100 black knights or the like are theoretically possible too though in praxis probably no player will build them (maybe in faerun).

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Well, Vicious Love said that worked, except for "outrageous statistical improbability"... Which could include the lucky hits Black Knights might be able to cause. I don't think he meant it that way, though. Something truly outrageous would be a Black Hawk hitting 100+ points of damage to a Cyclops, taking out his both arms.

I think BK etc powerful troops should be put to the same category as blessed units. They aren't as good, in most cases, but that's the closest thing.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

id put bogus down as a thug, but he could become a high lvl thug/very low lvl sc if given some great items but not worth it imo. bogus is actually quite a good example of a thug now that i think of it

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

The Greenstone armor that bogus wears isn't that great - high enc for its prot. But his other equipment is decent.

Troll Kings can be really nice, with the right equipment. You get high str and regen built in. Can cast summon earthpower and invulerability. Sea Kings are good too -- quickness and breath of winter. Although I frequently have Sea Kings casting falling frost instead...

I'm not sure if I'd say the troll kings are high end thugs or low end scs. They can't compete with air queens, but they can destroy most regular troop armies.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

i would put troll kings as high end thugs unless they are equiped. give them a lucky pendant and an amulet of anti magic/amulet of resilence/amulet of missle protection. then give flying shoes/boots of quckness

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Troll kings are great anti-SC artillery (petrify).

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I was wondering when someone would mention those exceptions. I hadn't thought of Machaka's spiders, though, nor about national troops with magic weapons and high attack. Nice catch.
However, I do disagree on the point of the hydras. And a true SC should always have either the protection or the Air Shield to survive an army of unenchanted crossbowmen, even on a bad day.

As for the 100 black knights, most SCs would have some combination of fear, Breath of Winter, Soul Vortex, etherealness, Mirror Image, Mistform etc to survive melee combat with a few of them, and chase or kill off the rest before they can use their lances.

Still, "most SCs" is not "all SCs", and I'm willing to grant that a few of the combat monsters I'd term "SCs" would still be taken down by large amounts of higher-end national troops, unless specially kitted to counter knights/jotuns/spiders/whatever. Point taken.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I've seen about 30 of my centaur warriors take down an air queen with jade armour and a wraith sword, so it's certainly possible, though perhaps unlikely. Of course, centaur warriors are one of the top national troops, so that's not really representative of the human nations.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

First i didn't want to sound know-it-all, i hope you didn't get this intention from my post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I am personally no big fan of SCs. Problem is that you never can't design your SC to survive all possible threats.
If you give your SC e.g. an Airshield this takes away 1 important misc slot.
I said Arlabests, not X-bows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif. An Arlabest does 17 ap damage, a X-bow only 10.
So even with a robe of invulnerability the Arlabest should do some damage.

But what's more important and that makes me normally rather dislike SCs: The enemy will also have mage support or thugs.
If the enemy has a combination of high damage troops and anti-SC mages you can't protect vs. everything.
I am not talking about high end Mages atm but rather about average ones. If your MR is low there is e.g. paralyze.
Then there are several good elemental attacks like incinerate or lightning bolt or thunderstrike.
If your SC is undead dust to dust is dangerous.
Also some spammers of phantasmal warriors, false horrors, ghost wolves or skellis probably can't defeat an enemy SC but at least stall him till the 50 turn limit. If the SC has encumberance they can maybe even kill him.
That's all just weak stuff though.

If you take Ctis e.g. they can skelspam, relief, drain life, and bane fire with their cheap 180 gold Sauros.
That's very tough for an enemy SC.
Then if your SC has astral magic he might get mind duelled etc. .

So you have to try to design your SCs in a way that they are both good vs. mages and troops. Because SCs have a mobility advantage and can get support too they are still good but vs. humans SCs can rarely Solo, only in the early stages of the game (QMs infamous SC pretenders!).

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Does CB increase damage of arbalests? Last I looked they did 13ap damage.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

From a lot of responces, an SC is not dertmined by the mob, but by the effects it has either natural or with equipment, or for the effects it CAN have via buffs?

But on the other hand, from the other threads, certain mobs are always going to be classified as Thugs, such as Banelords, no matter how they are equipped.

Out of all the possible units in the game, there must be a huge list of units that will "never be SC's", a small list that "Could be SC's", and an even smaller list that "Will always be considered an SC".

One person mentioned the 3 stats (Prot/Attack/Def). Is that where that line is drawn, at statistical markers? Does Hitpoints play a factor at all? Are there certain effects that must be present?

PS. I looked at most of the threads on the subject, but no one really defined where the line is drawn. I'm more trying to determine what column to put the various units in.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

a model like an airqueen/king of the world/doom horror is usually automatically considered and sc equiped or not, then some things such as the doom horrors when well equiped become uber scs

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I think the line goes in survivability. Prot is one side, hits another, def yet one more. Maybe two of those three, and at least five defensive/survivability-enchancing abilities (, immunity/high resistance to an element, air shield, ethereality, luck, regeneration/life drain) and at least one way of reliably getting rid of the enemies (damage shield or aura, effective attacks, Fear rating, trample; possibly a battle-wide spell, but that might be in its own category, or at least not cost-effective as fatique is yet another SC-killer).

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

a lucky etheral astral shielded regenerating reinvigorated golem with the unquenqed sword and soulstone of the wolves is fun, very hard to kill, deadly, and while wolves attack people they catch fire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif so 2 free battlefield wide spells per fight is fun

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Yeah, sorry, hitpoints are important as well. I would also say you need some way to avoid fatigue - like reinvigoration or life drain or 0 enc. Or a combination.

There is no easy rule to decide what is and SC vs. Thug. Everyone has their own opinion.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

You left out astral weapon, I b'lieve.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

the reason there is no line is because it makes no difference. Your unit is what it is. Your golem will not become more effective just because you decide to call it an SC rather than a thug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

left it out on purpose because unless fighting something very big his strength+the 16 or so ap damage is enough

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Yes, they are now 17 damage.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

im guessing its to make up for the lack of speed? next you'll be telling me smiths come with e2 AND f1

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

This is true. I could call it a doggiepooperdoodle but it won't change what it is. The title in this case however is a reflection of application, tactical application. Sending a thug to do a SC's job will end up costing you a lot of gems. And on the flip side, Sending a SC in a huge stack will be a unefficient use of an even larger supply of gems.

There is definatley a line that keeps units, no matter how they are equipped, from performing in the SC role. Thats basically what I was trying to determine. If you have that, you can basically quickly look at a unit and determine if it could be deployed and utilized as a SC would.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

It is relatively easy to look at the mod file itself, in a text editor, and see the changes for yourself. I believe the Readme file is still not updated from 5.0 (maybe I could do this in my "free" time...)

There is no need to be smart-***; if you don't like the mods, don't use them and don't play in multiplayer games that do. If changes concern you, look them up.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

This game has too much variety to have rules that easy. It depends on what you can equip, what magic you can cast, and most importantly, what armies you are facing.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Not to mention, how much you're willing to empower critters that aren't usually considered SCs. GoR a tarrasque and empower it a bit, and it certainly falls into the potential SC class. ( I did this in a game on the World map - think it had air, water and fire all at 2 or 3, making it a very big way to say "hello" by cloud trapezing it in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

its called a joke

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

From the man who coined the terms:

Supercombatant and Thug have become a permanent part of the Dominions lexicon. For some reason, Slayer never caught on.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

thug is fun to say, sc sounds fun but slayer is just.. well... slayer. lets all try to use slayer a little more

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Aren't the Abysian assassins called slayers? Makes sense that the word went out of style if people don't want to get confused. How about "Conans"? I have plenty of books where, on the cover, he's standing on a pile of militia/light infantry/heavy infantry. I guess we could say "tanks", if you want to bring in the MMO jargon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I don't see how a 6s Manticore nor a heavily equipped Heliophagus "is built with cost cutting in mind"

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

the manticore one is just un-equiped, and i wouldnt say that heliophagus is 'heavily equiped'

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Not at all. Erm... sorry I gave the impression that I got that impression, I guess.

Well, yeah. Thugs are always expendable, SCs... not so much. Especially since a true SC often calls for a unique artifact or two. I think that's another loose guideline for drawing the fuzzy line between thug and SC.
I don't really like SCs either, unless I know precisely what sort of opposition I'll be facing. Still, if you've gone to the trouble of securing some of the more powerful unique artifacts, you owe it to yourself to give them the most survivable chassis you can find.

14 in the unmodded game, but that extra 4 AP damage is still pretty significant.
So even with a robe of invulnerability the Arlabest should do some damage.

Not always true. No SC is utterly indestructible, all can be stalled until turn 50, all can be easily paralyzed with Petrify and, yes, all are tremendously susceptible to Drain Life. Those two spells aside, though, there are still SCs that are virtually immune to lower-end mages and unspecialized, general-purpose thugs, save in vast numbers.
With the right chassis and the right combination of unique artifacts, you can field a regenerating, lifedraining, self-reinvigorating, elemental-immune, magic-resistant monstrosity. There will still be counters, but your opponent will have to put some thought into them in order to be cost-effective.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

a fun tactic is to get a load of flying sc's in one place as if massing for an attack then when the enemy brings over his anti sc mages shoot right past them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Banefire? Gifts From Heaven? 72 quickened arch seraphs casting lightening bolt?

If you live through these (except for the seraphs... then you are an sc. Otherwise, you are dead and it doesn't matter.

Seriously, the line between a thug and an sc is so blurred as to be meaningless. The best rule I've found is that if it kills armies then it is good, otherwise, don't use it.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

iirc gifts from heaven and banefire are quite inaccurate. and as for the seraphs just make him immune to lightning (and hope they dont spam wolves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif)

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Innacurate? They hit a hex. If your caster has air magic, or an eye of aiming, or 1 nature for eagle eyes, I wouldn't want to be much under tartarian, prophetized Niefel, or pretender (in friendly dominion). As far as the seraphs go - best make sure he's immune to cold as well (but doesn't frozen heart damage cold immunes?).

And, shovah : rarely does someone have _so_ many SCs of any nature that they can mass a "load of" flying ones. Other than the Air Queens, most SCs don't fly, and making them fly wastes a slot, often making them "a dead former SC known as Prince" or some such. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

How about this : The SC is the one where, you weep if you lose it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

lol, i remember the time i thought id lost my uber tooledup golem to ulmish pd, i almost punched my monitor in but then i remembered it was just a commander id sacrificed

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Whoa. About 12 tarrasques worth of tarrasque. I never went further than GoRing one as a relatively cheap throwaway platform for Kurgi's Gift. I guess the middlin' MR is kind of a turn-off. Now, a GoRed abomination, especially one with an MR-enhancing item and/or path, that's Soul Slay resistant. The lifedrains are a plus, too.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

an abomb with amulet of anti-magic and some reinvig (or maybe an air shield)

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

One level of earth gives both basic reinvig and an MR boost, if you're willing to spend 1-2 rounds buffing. Does Iron Will stack with Magic Resistance/Amulets of Antimagic?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

It has three life drain attacks, so it won't need reinvigoration except against air magic and lifeless opponents. You'd probably be best off with an amulet of anti-magic and a ring of lightning resistance for general use.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

depends who your fighting (the ring wont help you much vrs abysia will it?) but if you could get an artifact (gift of kurgi/soulstone/nethgul) it might help