Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

So I was reading this forum while at work. Discussing in another thread the mechanics of ranged attacks (spells/missiles). Remembered there was something in the manual about it.
Got home, got the manual and got disappointed!

Then I thought about it: its not the bloody manuals fault! The manual just tells me the values involved but keeps the formula secret. Hell, this is realistic, isnt it? You know roughly what happens, but you dont know exactly! So this is fine, as it saves me a lot of research and mathematics before playing the game. It keeps the magic and the flair inside the game...

...but then I'm reading this forum, and people here seem to know so much more, which might give them an advantage. Not that I have played MP so far (but I definitely intend to, anyone in for PBEM btw?), but I'm just anxious to know more and more and I just cant stop reading this forum, although thats in some sense bad for me (a real spoiler somehow). I guess I spent more time in this forum than actually playing...urgh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Now my question: How do you know all this stuff? Bribing Illwinter?? Debugging??? Blackmailing Illwinter???? Or is it simply being addicted to this forum long before I was even aware this game existed?

(PS: Probably wont reply until tomorrow, as I try to play at least one turn today right now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Mostly by rumor mongering.

Sunray and others gathers bits of info here and there and puts it together in nice documents.

Many of the mechanics are not known by us either, but we can look them up in the code, should the demand arise.

Much of the 'hidden knowledge' can probably be found if you use the search function on this forum.

If you want to know something, just ask. Someone is bound to answer. Either me or some of the forum addicts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

*goes berserk +7* DIEEE KRISTOFFER!!!

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Ok, got me, I'm still here not playing...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It's kind of good to know that!

Well, I did ask and so far and did not get a satisfying answer (the question was about the formula determining the square where a missile or ranged spell attack would hit. More precisely, how to calculate the chance of hitting the right square depending on range, actual range and precision), but I'm not sure I really want to now anymore because it might kill the athomsphere of the game...ah well, of course I want know... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No problem. I'm immortal.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It's kind of good to know that!

Well, I did ask and so far and did not get a satisfying answer (the question was about the formula determining the square where a missile or ranged spell attack would hit. More precisely, how to calculate the chance of hitting the right square depending on range, actual range and precision), but I'm not sure I really want to now anymore because it might kill the athomsphere of the game...ah well, of course I want know... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Precision has recently been changed (2.09-beta) so I'm not sure how it works. But I didn't have a clue before either.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Chance of hitting a given square:

(1-(1-((2+prec)/(2+prec+1.5*range))))*(1-(prec/100)^2))*(prec/100)^.2

Doesn't it look about like that to you? You have to actually watch the battle replays to get a good feel for the exact equations, not just look at the results...

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No problem. I'm immortal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm really impressed! that formula is what you see looking the battle replay ? You are incredible!

more serious ... I'm quite sure you know a lot of formulas about combat (since you have coded most of them in your simulator) ... is a too hard work for you to just prepare a small rtf document/thread called "known formulas" and keep it growing ... something really simple like:

precision: ....

to hit: ...

to damage: ...

and so on ...

it will be great! I really would like to contribute to the community making a good documentationa and a good web site but I don't' know where you (and Zen, and ceremony, and other peoples) find this informations!

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good grief. How many battles did you have to watch just to get enough data points to get that equation? I'm sure you derived that from some sort of regression sampling, because surely the actual, in-code formula cannot be this awful and must surely look a lot prettier. And I'm pretty sure you had to stage all those battles yourself to control the conditions right.

[ March 16, 2004, 07:22: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure that the second 2 is really a 2 and not a .2? And I guess the weapon's basic range is missing somewhere... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

No, honestly, I agree. I just had to realize this after reading too much within this forum! Its just my nature as a mathematician which makes me wonder about the all these probabilities... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What a complicated formula... wait, it simplifies to ((2+prec)/(2+prec+1.5*range))*(1-(prec/100)^2))*(prec/100)^.2 , as the two 1's are redundant... wait a minute, there is one extra ) after the squared turn, was that a typo or something else (could explain the redudant 1's)

Btw, what is the highest possible precision in game short of prec100 spells? Btw, if I were to intepret the extra ) as a simple typo and ignore it, then the formula says maximum probabilty is at prec 40~50 (depends on Range), and actually starts to drop after that (prec100 has zilch ^_^) A result of regression fitting perhaps, albeit intriguing.

-Gateway103

[ March 16, 2004, 07:42: Message edited by: Gateway103 ]

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A precision of 40 to 50 is pretty insanely accurate. I don't think you find precision that good in the game, normally. The fact that it drops after that by the formula given is surely an artifact of regression fitting, which is the only feasible way that Cherry could possibly have derived such a convoluted formula. It's almost certainly not *THE* formula used in the code, but it's likely a good enough approximation for all reasonable values of precision.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

The formula looks faulty, here are some tabular results : prec 10 has a nearly flat hit chance regardless of range, prec 50 is worse than 20..


PREC
RANGE 5 10 15 20 50 99
1 45.12% 59.13% 63.57% 66.69% 64.12% 1.97%
5 8.36% 34.18% 30.44% 31.34% 31.05% 14.72%
10 2.96% 31.52% 26.04% 27.01% 26.95% 22.83%
20 1.25% 31.35% 25.18% 26.27% 26.26% 25.18%
50 0.43% 31.48% 24.98% 26.14% 26.14% 25.73%

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Oh, I should mention that I just made that up. Ha, ha! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I didn't really think anyone would take it seriously...

Finding the formula would be tough, since it doesn't even exist in the game code - the precision formula just tells the projectile where to land; it does not give it a probability of hitting a given square.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What! And we trusted you!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

That'll teach us to trust the "reputable" Saber Cherry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-Gateway103

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Yes Cherrypie, you must not be fallable.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really. If knew what that formula WAS, then the probability of it hitting a given square is the probability that the randomly selected square it will land in is the target square.

Even if you didn't know what the formula is, you could probably approximate it by the regression sampling people THOUGHT you might have done. What other data did you blatantly falsify as well?

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Not sure I can output enough rolleyes smileys for that statement. Cherry made a joke that was extremely obvious once you LOOKED at the formula, and you accuse him of falsifying stuff in his other, very valuable to the community, works? Get off your damn high horse man. It was a joke. J-O-K-E.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Well, in addition, when I asked about a formula, I was rather referring to the mechanics used to determine the divergence from the target square, not for a closed formula... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I assume that the "mechanics" might be something like for every square that the projectile flies, there is a chance based on weather (strom/rain/snow), precision and basic weapon range whether the projectile goes astray from its designated course a bit...

But leaving this aside, my real problem is that I'm still lacking a feel for precision-values in relation to range, especially when it comes to mages that won't shoot they lightning bolts in such a mass like archers. It just seems to me that scripting spells that affect only a single square is almost useless without wind-guide, aim, eye of precision, etc. against foes that are not packed densely on the field...

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Yes, the manual is very bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif , mine lack even the victory conditions. It would be nice of Illwinter to put a complete manual Online (and re-edited the one which is dsitribute).

Very un-happy with the manual.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I'm not going to sing the unmitigated praise of the manual, is the Dominions II manual really any worse than what's usual for strategy games these days? IMO it's somewhat better than average - of course, with Dominions II being the game that it is, that isn't really sufficent.

*sighs* Oh, for a return to the golden era of computer games - back when the Amiga was Queen of World and games actually came with large, well-written manuals (and extras.) The likes of Ultima V, or Flight of the Intruder - or even Eye of the Beholder.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What! And we trusted you!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

That'll teach us to trust the "reputable" Saber Cherry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-Gateway103 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Moreover the formula wasn't that stupid, and gave credible results for a good range of outcomes ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Anyway there HAS to be some kind of formula/model determining where the stuff land - IIRC Dom2 doesn't model a full physical world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have to agree with LEIF here. It is a general problem with strategy games, that "good manuals" as we oltimers know'em are almost nonexistant nowadays. (But times change. Back when I started (pc)gaming, strategy gides came out a few months after the game was published.)
The dominions manuall isn't that bad compared to others.
Now, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like an updated manual. And if this were a big company, maybe I would be more vocal. But the producers of this game are busy making new patches - changing the game even further. But that's OK with me. I'ld rather have a few bugs removed, maybe a new theme or five, than have a first rate manual with a weakly supported game (thinks of moo3, screams with rage!).

In all honesty, seeing the strong fan base, it wouldn't surprise me if one (or a few) of the forum members created his/their own updated manual, in time.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

To my surprise, I've found that the Dom I-manual, which can be downloaded from Illwinters Website, is a bit more verbose than the Dom II manual.

I dont know Dom I, but much of the deleted text from Manual DomI to DomII seems to be integrated into RightClick-PopUps now, which is very useful generally speaking (although it nerves me that you just cant look up the descriptions of the nations in the DomII manual), but there also seems to be other information which might not have become obsolete in DomII...why did they delete it?
Saving pages to reduce printing cost? Then rather skip the grimoire, as this is less useful IMHO, since you need to know a spells school/level in order to look it up, which is difficult if you are new to the game...A spreadsheet-file for sorting/filtering was much more helpful for me, and certainly much more uptodate with those patches...

But as I said: I guess I dont really want to know more of the mechanics, I just want to know that everybody else I might play does not know that much more than I do... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 17, 2004, 14:28: Message edited by: Chazar ]

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Heheh, my initial reaction when I saw the formula was that you made it up, but I wasn't sure and it turned out to be somewhat realistic as some here have already mentioned http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

About the manual, though, I was very pleased with it overall. It includes much more than many games will give you and the full spell and item reference was a very nice addition. I am used to having to purchase a "clue book" for information like that.

One of the things that would be nice, though, is a brief overview of each nation and its general strengths/weeknesses and unit types. I don't recall reading that, but some of this information is included in game and there is an explanation of each on the nation select screen. This along with some type of tutorial to understand how the game works and get that initial nudge, but the walkthru out now does that very well.

I would also like to comment on how well the in game documentation is done. I really like how you can get information on just about every item/stat in the game. The hotlinks and popups that give detailed information are really nice, especially in the spell research area where you can see the lists of spells and get detailed descriptions of each. Or, if you are on a unit portrait, you can get detailed information on each unit stat (and what is currently affecting it), equipment, and abilities. That in itself really can help the learning curve and makes it so that a manual isn't even necessary for many parts of the game. Of course, it does take some time to get to know your way around and realize all of this information is there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Granted that not everyone knows about this site and the references created, but those fill out the rest of the information nicely and gives a player just about all one could ask for as documentation for a game.

Oh, and weren't the old Ultima games great, Leif? I remember saving months worth of money as a young teenager so that I could get Ultima III and then IV. Those were great adventures.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I only ever played V - which I thought was quite good, but not a particularly great game. The way it had you roll up your avatar, though, was interesting, and I wish that other games would have done a similar mechanism (and done it at least as well as Ultima V.) Other than that, what I most remember from Ultima V was idling on bridges to trigger an attack by trolls - that was the quickest way of gaining experience for much of the game. There was also a horrible design-decision in the plot - where you needed to pick a widget at some point in the game, and if you didn't, you basically ended up SOL at a later point.

Still, I really prefer the old "turn-based, tactical control of your party" in games such as Ultima or SSI's various AD&D games, to the hectic "slash and spell" of modern RPGs.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Cool... the only thing I remember about Ultima V was one of my disks becoming corrupted and not being able to finish it (at least that is what I figured happened). That, and getting it for a birthday present from my girlfriend at the time. That had to be one of the best gifts I ever got http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Ultima III was cool, but the first time I went through the whole game and got to the end, I put the cards (or whatever they were) in the wrong order into the Exodus. Then, the game said something like, "You have failed, you lose." and it ended, heheh. I went through it completely a second time to complete it successfully, and this time talked to the correct person that told me the right way to place the cards. One thing I recall was when you died the game would write to the floppy disk (all the system had back then) so that you couldn't undo anything. I got real good at ripping the floppy disk out quickly when I was about to die http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Anyway, sorry to get side-tracked there. Back to Dom II...

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I only ever played V - which I thought was quite good, but not a particularly great game.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A shame, you should have played Ultima IV. For my money, it was the best of all the Ultimas. Attaining (and keeping) the virtues in order to progress was a novel approach. You could lie, steal, murder, and be a generally nasty person with great rewards - but you needed to act virtously to succeed, and it was so easy and tempting to slip. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Beats those games where you are a generic good guy/bad guy by miles.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

from that era of games i personally favored wasteland (lots of fun with a bb gun)

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, tell me about it. In my day, the measure of a good manual was the ability to render a man unconcious with it by whopping him upside the head with it. Bet you can't do that with manuals today, and games today are supposed to be more complex. You'd think they'd warrant a bigger manual.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

Now, the _EU_ manual was pretty goofy. T'was a good history pamphlet... but it largely omitted details on how to play the game.

Re: Got home, got manual, got disappointed!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Victoria manual makes the EU manual look good by comparison. Paradox really needs to hire a professional manual writer, or better yet a writer with strategy guide experience (such writers tend to have more attention to detail).