What does KT really mean??
 

I was just wondering what the abbreviation KT following the ship size is supposed to represent? Is it KiloTon (2.2 standard US tons) or does the K mean 1,000 tons..kinda confusing I know..but think about it. If it means 2.2 US tons, the fighter sizes of 15, 20 , and 25 would be about right...although the heavy might be on the light side...but a 1000KT ship in the game wouldn't be squat in real life, considering todays destroyes go at about 10,000 tons and a Nimitz carrier exceeds 100,000 and supertankers at 250,000.

But if you take the other approach, being that 1000KT ship is actually 1,000,000 tons...sheesh..this is one big ship, with the lightest escort of 150KT being 50% heavier than the Nimitz. My idea of an escort is pretty small...maybe 50 crew or so...not the 6000+ the Nimitz has. Then even the fighters would be at horrendous sizes too...15,000 tons for the light fighter..hehe, as big as a navy cruiser.

So either way you look at it, you either have tiny little ships much smaller than contempory naval vessels, or huge mammoth monsters. Kinda curious what the intention was on this. As for gameplay it works ok.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Well I would suppose they are using the same system that nuclear weapons use in which a kiloton is 1000 tons and a megaton is 1 million tons. I would point out that naval vessals on water aren't usually described by their actual weight but by the amount of water they displace which is not even close to being the same. They must displace much more water than they actually weigh in order to float.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Dont forget, metric people have their own tonnes and stuff.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

I always took it to mean 1,000 Tons, ie big brutes. Makes sense really. You need something big to cram all the systems into them the game has. And to withstand the rigors of space travel. A Honor Harrington Superdreadnaught weighs in at about 8,300,000 tons, ie 8300kT, much larger then a baseship. A HH Battlecruiser weighs in at about 850,000 tons, ie 850kT. But then the HH ships gets progressivelly larger the higher up in class they come then the hulls in SE4. Been thinking about putting together a HH techset with shipsizes and componentsizes such that you can design and build ships with similar size and armament as the HH ships. Probably won't though as it would be way to much work. Might just adjust the ship sizes though.

BC crews are about 700 souls and SD crews are about 6000 souls but the RMN could lower that with more automated systems.

My point is the ship sizes makes sense in a sf kind of way.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
They must displace much more water than they actually weigh in order to float. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that is not entirely true. A FLOATING body will displace a mass of water equal to the mass of the floating body. That is because the buoyancy force (specific weight of the fluid, water for ship, multiplied by the volume of water displaced by the object) must equal the weight of the floating object. SW * Volume = weight If the two forces did not equal, the object would accelerate in one direction or the other, basically it would sink.

Picture a 10,000 lbf, 1000 ft^3 object float in water. The buoyancy force must equal 10,000 lbf, otherwise it would sink. The object would have to displace approximately 10,000 lbf / 62.4 lbf/ft^3 (specific weight of water) = 160.25 ft^3 water, much less than the volum of the object itself.

Call me a geek. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

I forgot to mention that seawater has a specific weight, requiring even less water to make the same object float.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Oops, seawater has a specific weight GREATER than water. I need to proof read these a little better.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

And while you're puzzling over this... figure out how much your people weigh. You can put millions of 'em in a colony pod, after all, along with everything needed to keep 'em alive indefinitely. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

They are probably in suspended animation when in colony ships or cargo pods. They don't seem to reproduce or die in there. That way you can stack them and no food or other requirements are needed.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

You are forgetting the main point of the weight. The beings that board a transport are dehydrated (or deliquidfied depending on what there main liquid is). This allows for a great sazings of weight and mass.

Just hope that the loadmasters keep the residues separated properly.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Dehydrated? Ouch. That has to be uncomfortable... no wonder colonists are Jubilant at getting off the boat.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

I started this topic just to see how it would turn out..kinda funny how it began with an abbreviation to dehydrated colonists..hehe.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

A 15kt fighter would be bigger than an Aegis destroyer (550' long, +50' wide). Now that's a huge fighter. A Nimitz class carrier weights about 100kt, this is an escort in the game.

Because of the incongruenties that arrise from using only one system of measurment, I picture a kt as an artificial game unit and leave it at that.

Frank V.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

To be honest I haven't given it much thought. I just took it to be I artifical unit of messure in this game and left at that. Kinda like simoleons(sp) in SimCity 3000 or Units(or whatever I end calling it) in a game I wrote.

My advice don't worry about it that too much and just enjoy the game

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Congratulations!

The fact that this discussion is even taking place simply means that this forum is peopled entirely by... Grognards! Yes, This really fits the definition to a perfect degree. Be proud. LOL.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

The weight of an object has nothing to do with size. It has to do with the stuff the object is made out of and everything packed into it. If I build a 4 story 4000 sq ft building out of paper and put nothing in it, it will wieght a lot less then the same building maded out of steel and packed with gastanks, food, people, defense systems, computers,etc.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dracus:
The weight of an object has nothing to do with size. It has to do with the stuff the object is made out of and everything packed into it. If I build a 4 story 4000 sq ft building out of paper and put nothing in it, it will wieght a lot less then the same building maded out of steel and packed with gastanks, food, people, defense systems, computers,etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nevertheless, the volume of of ship is measured in tons. This refers to the weight of seawater displaced by the volume. A ton of seawater occupies a given volume, and that volume is a ton of displacement.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

So that means a spaceship measured in tons would measure the displacement of vaccuum
in tons? If I could spell Aether (ether?) I would use that instead of vaccuum http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Hey guys, we're NOT talking about weight here, but rather MASS. Weight only is a measure of FORCE. In other words, in different gravities, the same mass weights differently. In fact, if you could measure it precisely, you weigh less on top of a mountain than you do at sea level. The gravity changes as you move further from the "center" of the planet (or body). I know some of you are going to get me 'cause this doesn't keep its accuracy once you get below the surface - the gravity changes based on a complex mathematical formula.

Reguardless, the displacement of water on a ship has to do with WEIGHT and not mass. In space, they don't "displace" a vaccum. Rather the mass is an absolute. And based on Newtonian physics (that's the one I use), the force needed to move an object has to do with MASS and other forces and nothing to do with WEIGHT. Someone else said it more elegantly than me earlier, but that is the bottom line.

Peersonally, I think the size of the ships in kT's has to do with how strong the actual hull is and not it's size. Theoretically, you could attach infinite components to a structure in space (there is no WEIGHT). However moving the object would / could require tremendous sheer strength by the structure to hold them all together while accelerating (which is what engines do).

[This message has been edited by rdouglass (edited 19 January 2001).]

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
The gravity changes as you move further from the "center" of the planet (or body). I know some of you are going to get me 'cause this doesn't keep its accuracy once you get below the surface - the gravity changes based on a complex mathematical formula.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The formula to which you refer is

F=G*M1*M2/R^2

G = Universal Graviation Constant (6.67E-11 m^3/(s^2*kg, or 3.32E-11 lbf*ft^2/lbm^2)
M1 = mass of object 1 (kg or lbm)
M2 = mass of object 2 (kg or lbm)
R = distance between the center of mass of each(m or ft)

I beleive this formula holds true even below the surface of the earth since is measures the distance between the centers of mass. In the english engineering system of units, mass is measured in lbm in lieu of slugs. Therefore 1 lbm is numerically equal to 1 lbf. There are 32.174 lbm in one slug. There is also a funny conVersion factor, gc = 32.174 (ft-lbm)/(lbf-s^2).

This is why 1 lbm is equal to 1 lbf. F=ma, from Newton's second law of motion. In the English Engineering system, we introduce that funny little gc into the equation, F=ma/gc (a=the acceleration of gravity, 32.174 ft/s^2 on earth at sea level)

so

1 lbf = (1 lbm)*(32.174 ft/s^2)/(32.174 ft-lbm/lbf-s^2)

1 = 1

We engineers is weird.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kimball:
[b] The formula to which you refer is

F=G*M1*M2/R^2

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If anyone really cares, this formula is not applicable to all cases.

This formula assumes that the masses are point sources and is usually good enought to use in the real world. With spherical bodies, such as planets, it is an exact solution and force changes in proportion to 1/r^2, as long as the the masses do not intersect. Once M1 goes below the surface of M2, the force changes proportional to r (i.e. it decreases).

The result is that for someone standing on the surface of a sphere, gravitational force is maximized. The force decreases as you move away (1/r^2), and the force decreases as you go deeper ( r). At the center of the earth, you would experience 0 gravitational force.

There are also higher order effects since real planets are not perfectly spherical nor completely solid. These cause tides and precession of satellite orbits.

That geeky enough for you?

Steve

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Quite true. But this is a topic more suited for a freshman physics class, not a game board. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

"Right, then, we'll call it a draw."
-Black Knight

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

So, is there an agreement that 'Kt' means 'Kilo Tons' then?

tic

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

I take Kilo Tons to mean 1000 tons (US). Then again, it's just a unit of measure for the game.

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Over in the CM forum 'KT' is universally accepted as the abbreviation for 'King Tiger'.
Problem solved.
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


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visit my Combat Mission site at:
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Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Kilo means 1000 in some language, latin probably. A "Kilogram", 1000 gram. A Kilo Ton (kT), 1000 tons, or 1 000 000 kg (Kilograms) or 1 000 000 000 gram or 1 000 000 000 000 Mg (milligram) http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: What does KT really mean??
 

Wow

tic