SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

Space Empires V Intel Suggestions:
(DRAFT)

This thread is a compellation of the features the Space Empires playing community would like to see in respect to the Space Empires V intelligence model. This is a list of general suggestions for the developers.

Basic Elements:

1. Point Based System, generated by facilities. Modified by Racial trait, treaties, leaders or �administrators/ministers� and �agents�.

2. Offensive Projects � Point based. However, as opposed to the SEIV model, we propose the following:
a. Each project should have a chance % of success. This Offensive % should be weighed against the defensive %, producing a modifier. (Offensive and Defensive modifiers may have factors such as racial bonus and intel level that contribute to the %).
b. Each Project should have an inherent difficulty based on the value of the operation. For instance, system information = 05% difficulty, and crew insurrection = 75% difficulty.

So, for a given project completed, the (project difficulty modifier) x (total offensive modifier) is modified against (target�s total defensive modifier) = chance for success. This chance for success will be compared against a random number generator to determine success or failure.

For example, the Terrans complete system information project (-05%) x (total offensive modifier +65%) x (Krill targets total defensive modifier -25%) = 35% chance of success. A random number 22 is generated, and the project succeeds. A higher number generated (36 or higher) would have indicated failure.

Failures and catastrophic failures - The failure variable is measured against thresholds:
- Failure number under 100 � simple failure, enemy has no idea about the attempt
- Failure variable 101-150 � failure, enemy knows that a nonspecific attempt was made
- Failure variable 151+ - �compromises� which inform the enemy about your empire�s specific attempt.

Automatic Success and Failure � Random generated numbers of (1-3) = Automatic failure, and Random generated number of 98-100) = Automatic Success. So any given attempt has for automatic success or failure, despite heavily stacked offensive or defensive modifiers.

3. Defensive projects � Use a given empire�s Defensive Modifier % rather than the current �Counter Intel bucket system.� Defensive projects should be included and expanded - in degree as well as specialization. Upon completing a project, a bonus could be applied to the general Defensive Modifier for a certain number of turns. For a specialized Counter Intel Project, the defense could be applied against a specific intel project group/Category.

For example, the Krill could complete Counter Intel I that provides +10 to defense for 10 turns. They could also run counter intel against Ship Sabotage if this is a trend which adds a bonus defending against attacks in that area.

4. Project Levels � Expand Intel levels to 10 levels, for both Offensive and Defensive Projects

- Offensive � As SEIV, completing an Intel research level introduces new projects. It should also add an associated bonus to the Overall Offensive Project % Allow specialized projects with user defined criteria (see Hotfoot)

- Defensive � Completing an intel research level introduces new specialized defensive operations. 10 levels of defense, each granting a general defensive bonus to the Overall Defensive Project %. Also introduce a specialized project to increase a defensive bonus against a specific empire� this would be a higher state of alert against an empire that has been targeting you.

5. Intel and Treaty Status � bonus of intel operations should be modified according to treaty (I.e. partnership = +25 to all operations) and (war = -25% to all operations) as well as racial makeup, and government type:

6. ADDITIONAL IDEAS / CLARIFICATION
(Cyrien)
I have been dividing intel into several categories based on race mental makeup. I broke it into the following categories: - players must choose one, I did something similiar with technology

Strong Individuals
Individuals
Unified Society
Unified Minds
Hive Mind
Single Mind

Then based on that you get different intel CI and intel projects with varying costs. Individuals have weaker CI as it is easier to convince one to go against the whole etc. At the same time because it is known that they will and do act in this way they are more easily able to convince other species that they are acting independent and mean no harm, also each agent can act on own initiative causing less usage of empire wide resources (intel points).

Single Mind has massive CI as everything is a single individual. The pinky finger isn't going to betray the thumb. The Hive mind has similar CI and both of those have very expensive non-CI projects that are limited in scope and ability as it will be harder for a race that is known to not possess individual thought to penetrate into trusted areas of any other species, also every project requires special attention from the single mind and empire resources are more likely to be used(intel points).

The unified signify species that while they have individual thoughts they are either joined in a greater societal goal or are somehow linked mentally with a greater cohesion. These offer a more balanced intel package with the society link being slightly weaker CI and increased offense and the unified minds being stronger CI but weaker offense.

Separate from those and optional picks that can compliment and offer extras to the above

Open Borders - Better offensive intel in reduced project costs but weaker CI
Default - Must pick if you don't take a different one so that normal intel is active, limitation of the SE4 mod system
Closed Borders - Stronger CI but weaker offensive intel

The system isn't perfect but it is the best I could come up with to incorporate individual alien societies/makeups/whatever into the intel system.

Ideally I would want to have each project working like PPP with it having a chance to fail and succeed regardless of CI, have CI with limited point storage to stop small one turn projects in small numbers and Intel Sabotage to stop big programs.

(dogscoff)
A few more things: I've suggested this before as being related to population management and population movement (see my various rants about having populations move autonomously), but it's relevant to intel. I'd like to be able to set the freedom level I allow my citizens. you'd be able to choose between a variety of settings (maybe a percentage scale) between the following 2 extremes :

*Completely libertarian: foreign trade and research sharing flourish. Citizens are happy, but enemy intel/ sabotage is hard to spot. Plagues spread rapidly, populations move about freely within and across national borders. Popular uprisings are harder to control.

*Totalitarian control: Foreign trade and research sharing are lowered somewhat. Populaions cannot move so freely, so plagues are easily contained. Citizens are less happy, but their uprisings are easier to suppress due to totalitarian infrastructure. Infiltration by enemy intel is very difficult.

You'd be able to move your status on this scale during the game, but anything but the most gradual changes would cause popular unrest. Suddenly switching from one extreme to the oother would cause massive rioting.

Finally, intel against friendly empires should be easier than against enemies- after all it's easier to steal from/ sabotage someone who trusts you.

(rdouglass)
Specialized Facilities
You could build some sort of "Intel Headquarters" to increase resistance to intel in system. You could add intel components to ships to increase their CI ability against Crew Insurrection; think something along the lines of Security Stations.

Additional Intel Objects such as �Agents� and Skill %
(Alneyan)
You would have to "recruit" these agents by spending these intelligence points, which will remain as a very convenient abstraction. Then you would have to train these agents, by spending the same points, or you might send them to enemy systems for "learning the hard way". Obviously, all projects will cost intelligence points, so you would have to choice where to spend the points. And then you could consider giving the agents basic abilities, something along the lines of "Counter-Intelligence, Spying/Sabotage and Loyalty/Combat" (That is, defense, offence and escape)

(Gryphin)
I like the idea of individual spys that have been discussed here. Almost sounds like adding a level of role play.

If it were to get implemented I would want it as an option as it does look like more micro management

(KlausD)
Each spy has certain %skills ranging from 0% to xxx% and a race which is part of the SEV empire.

Like "infiltration" (the ability to infiltrate a social, economical and political community)

Other skills could be "diplomacy" (the skill for destabilization missions) or "cleaning" (finding and terminating enemy operatives). Further skills could be "intelligence" (collecting informations)and so on.

First step for operatives are the training. There could be intelligence training centers as facilities which can train operatives similar to ship yards which are building ships.

Second step is gaining Skill% (see above) in a random manner. Its important to gain skill AFTER training, so the owner dont know of the qualities of his operative in advance and thus preventing the player stopping its training program.

Third step is assigning a mission. Default mission could be the "defensive mission" which is just cleaning the own empire from enemy activities. If not on defensive mission, the operative could be assigned to a specific planet or a specific enemy empire. This depends on the type of missions.

The Missions type and effects could be similar to the current intel projects. (puppet party etc.)

If a mission is successful each other turn (not necessarly every) after infiltrating the enemy, a random "%dice" is rolled. If the roll is under the operatives Skill% it is a success. Modifiers could be - the race (if the operative has the same race this is positive), mission difficulty, enemy empire defensive intelligence etc.

Specialized Projects
(Hotfoot)
As for the construction of such projects, here is how I see it potentially working:

Each project would have an objective. This would be akin to the bridge/crew quarters/life support requirement. Possible objectives would include desired result, target, and methods used to obtain the objective. For example, steal a [random] technology from the Eee by Bribery and Subterfuge. Bribery would be potentially expensive, and you could put limits on how much your spies are allowed to spend on bribes, so that they don't bankrupt your empire getting you some worthless tech.

The allowed projects should definitely depend on the facilities at the spy's current location.

Context-sensitive projects:
(Suicide Junkie)
A project to temporarily take over a weapon platform for example ... It could fire a volley at random ships in orbit, using whatever weapons the enemy designed into the platform.

If the spies are on a world without organics farms, it should be impossible to sabotage organics production.
Without a spaceyard or resupply depot, it should be similarily impossible to plant bombs on ships.

Remove Limitation on Number of Projects
(Parasite)
I would like a way to spend all of the generated intel of an empire. In SEIV, if you have more than 1.2 Million in Intel, all you can do is 12 Planet captures. Max. (Note this limit should be raised because Conter Intel does cost more than 100K, but you get the idea.
So, we would like the limitation of amount of intel projects removed.
***

[ May 08, 2004, 00:34: Message edited by: Stone Mill ]

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

The allowed projects should definitely depend on the facilities at the spy's current location.

Context-sensitive projects:

A project to temporarily take over a weapon platform for example ... It could fire a volley at random ships in orbit, using whatever weapons the enemy designed into the platform.

If the spies are on a world without organics farms, it should be impossible to sabotage organics production.
Without a spaceyard or resupply depot, it should be similarily impossible to plant bombs on ships.

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why couldn't the spy be one of the ship's crew?

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would like a way to spend all of the generated intel of an empire. If you have more than 1.2 Million in Intel, all you can do is 12 Planet captures. Max. (Note this limit should be raised because Conter Intel does cost more than 100K, but you get the idea.)

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why couldn't the spy be one of the ship's crew? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because the spy is on the planet.

Getting them assigned to an enemy ship would be a good project, and from there, you could do more projects, such as reporting the ships's location/damage and transmitting what the ship can see.

[ May 07, 2004, 22:43: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

I don't know if this would be too advanced or not (in terms of micromanagment) but what if Intel was removed from the research queue entirely. Instead, you would have an Intel screen, similar to the research screen. On it would be various Intel projects and/or training and/or agents. Intel points would be spent like research points. Various options would only become possible when you're agents were in position.

Each level of each Intel Project would increase your chance of success for instance. Before something like a Ship Bomb could be planted, you would have to use Intel points to get an agent in position on an enemy planet. The more agents on enemy planets, the higher the chance of success as you would have agents more likely to encounter the target ship.

Something like Crew Insurrection would require X agents in ship N crew manafest before you could even attempt it. PPP would require X(planet size) agents and perhaps some other planet specific projects to succeed before being attempted.

Don't know if I explained this very well. I hope I did because I think this would over come a lot of the comments about Cre Insurrections and PPP's being too easy. It would become a process instead. It would also seperate Intel from Research. So better Intel facilites or Training facilites would be a factor of Intel points rather than Research points. As would skill in certain Intel Projects. You could have an empire who's focus has been on Ship Bombs to the point that they are experts at it but suck at gathering Intel. It would also add another dimention to what empires could interact for. The Ship Bomb expert could be hired out to bomb for others for instance.

Intel points would have to be generated from the very beginning of the game rather than the way they are now, though, which makes more sense to me. Our planet may not have many Intel Facilities but I'm sure there are some that would qualify.

Wow. That turned out longer than I planned

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

Suicide Junkie and Parasite,

Thank you. I rolled your suggestions into my original post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Bearclaw,
Your idea sounds quite interesting. However, it sounds like it's the beginning of an entirely new and complex model... perhaps I'll add it as an addendum as an idea for a different model?

By all means if anyone has any ideas on improving the model I propose... or proposing any models of their own, please do. Or if their are any great ideas I missed from a previous thread...

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

Interesting proposal, but lacking in one crucial aspect -- politics! There should be influences from the state of 'unrest' on each planet, the species inhabiting the planet (if it's your 'original' race or a conquered species or a species representing another uncounquered empire!), and the dominant species of the empire attempting the intel operation. Essentially, both individual planets and 'species' will have unrest or loyalty Ratings. Not only can a given planet be in an unfavorable 'mood' and make intel operations more likely to succeed, but an entire species of an opposing empire could also be in an unfavorable mood and highly disposed to aid enemy intel operations. Planets inhabited by your original race would tend to be more loyal and so more difficult to carry out intel operations on, of course.

Implementing this properly requires some unrest 'modifiers' based on the relations of your empire to the 'original' empire of the race(s) on your controlled planets, and level of unrest for other reasons, and how you deal with it (fix conditions causing unrest or just land troops?) and a few other such things.

Combine this with some modifications to the way troops affect a planet -- first a slight reduction in the chance of intel sucess per troop, capped at some reasonable level so you can't make completely immune planets by piling on hundreds of troops, and second that troops should remain loyal when a planet rebels and attempt to put down the rebellion (fight the militia essentially), and you've got some really interesting situations possible.

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

Simply make troop effectiveness for unrest a curve.

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

I like the idea of intel projects working as direct fire weapons in combat with offensive and defensive (and racial characteristics) modifiers very much and I think this should be not too complicated to realize.
The idea of counter intel as a boost for the defense without 100% safety is very good too IMO. Anything than the current system in SE IV with counter intel projects that just are lost upon completion seems better to me.
I am not sure if you want intel points divided in offensive or defensive with different facilities to produce them? That IMO would be too static. I think you should be able to switch rapidly from offensive to defensive intel.
For the AI a intel project file, that defines which intel projects are used, should be created.

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

I would agree that the "direct fire" approach seems to offer a solution that is playable and easiest to program. I would bring up one obvious additional factor: the Fate Shrine. Would its intel defense function be eliminated, or should it simply reduce the chance of mission success? On that note, since there will be ways for races to defend themselves, would the Fate Shrine be able to improve on that defense (as Nature Shrines can work in conjunction with Value Improvement plants) or would it operate in an "whichever is greater" method (Time Shrines and System Robotoid Factories)? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

Do any of you recall a game where intel worked well? Perhaps if we had an example of how intel can work and work well then maybe Aaron might be able to use those concepts in SE V if applicable.

I liked how intel kinda worked in Rebellion in that you had agents with varing skills. The card editor allowed you to edit the effectiveness of the operative. Some operatives were better at specific things than others, and there were teams you could buy that would go out and conduct sabotage.

If SE V had both intel and counter intel operations, and you had to train specialized personal for specific mission, and they were re-usuable if successful, then perhaps intel could take a gaint leap forward. Just my .o2 cents.

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

Hows this?

Intel points are generated empire wide, as per. They can be spent on "general" stuff (projects etc), either offensively or defensively, or to purchase "agents" (who are VERY expensive)

"General" use would represent surveillance, signal intercepts, watching the news (all the things that modern Intel agencies do, essentially), and the use of low level agents. Certain mission types (especially offensive ones) would be unavailable. You can assign your "general" points into a number of pools, on a per race basis, or into the defensive pool (this is borrowing heavily from the Star Trek 4x game).

Obviously, you can only assign offensive points to races you have "met" (probably a good measure would be to have detected at least 1 of their planets with your own ships, not just having seen their ships).

The "offensive" categories could break down into ship based (steal design, plant bomb, crew insurrection etc), planet based (plague bombs, planet stats, sabotage build queue, destroy facility etc), research (steal research, sabotage research), intel (steal intel, sabotage intel, identify agent, double agent!!), etc, etc. You build up points until a randomly triggered "project" is generayed. Then, your existing intel pool is measured, used and reset. You don't know what effect you'll get (most intel is about taking opportunities, not deciding what you want). You can decide how to bias your activities, but nothing is certain.

Obviously, the more points you assign per race / Category, the better you'll do. The points accumulate turn by turn, until (randomly) a mission window appears, and they convert into an actual effect. This should be random, but time linked, say a 3% chance of a mission per turn (this can be fiddled with, 7%/turn for the first 5 turns, then 4%/turn for 6 turns, then 3% turn, until a trigger is generated). This makes missions random, but not stupidly so. Any unassigned points the race has stay as Counter intel, and are applied against ops running at you (so you must make a choice; do I run ops, or defend myself?)

Op Example: you push 1000 points / turn into "ship effects" on the Terrans. After 5 turns, a trigger pops up, and you "convert" your intel. You've been inputting 1000/turn, so have 5k built up. The Terrans are putting 200 turn into counter intel, so your total pool is 4k (200x5=1000, 5000-1000=4000).

4k on "ship effects" gives you a range of possible effects, steal ship design (30% to choose, 60% base success), plant bomb (10% to choose, 20% base success), sabotage engine (10% to choose, 20% base success), drain supplies (30% to choose, 60% base success), misdirect movement orders (20% to choose, 40% base success). One is selected at random (%age chances can be assigned for a given pool total), then success / failure determined. If a bigger effect is chosen, chances of success decrease, but the benefits are greater.

Overall, this means that you can only CONSISITENTLY pull off big scores against races that you are targetting hard, and that aren't big on CI (but those who ARE big on CI don't really have enough points spare to runs ops at others), unless you are massively superior in intelligence, in which case its realistic anyway.

Agents : add a new planet facility (1 per system - agents are rare), Intel Complex, that permits you to run 1 agent. You don't get him for free, you have to buy him. This is an alternative use for Intel points. Once you have at least 1 unused Intel Complex, a new "race" appears in your intel screen. You then apply points there as normal. After so many have accumulated, you have a brand new agent! You can still apply points to certain areas, but that now represents training in that area, not an operation.

Agents have skill %ages in many areas, related to the intel cats. As they survive missions, or train, their %ages increase (training will have maximums in rate of gain and a %age cap, to encourage giving your agents real world experience). The major benefit of agents is that they can CHOOSE their mission type and race (and have some extra missions available that only they can do). Obviousy, their skills affect their success and survival chances.

If an agent is caught / killed, you can begin recruiting a new agent. If you have 3 Complexes, and 3 agents, and a planet containing 1 of your complexes gets glassed or captured, you lose an agent (gets cut off from Control, and disappears)... If you had 4 Complexes and 3 agents, that would eb a different story

Obviously, a very large empire could own MANY systems, so maybe a hard limit of 10 agents should be put in. You can have more Complexes, so territorial losses won't necessarily blitz your agent corps, but after a while the micromanagement gets nightmarish, and to be honest, NO government is keen on having too many top class spies wandering around.. Its just ASKING for trouble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Agents can be assigned to CI too, but would ONLY apply to a particular planet / ship (if you happen to know or suspect that another agent is being used against you in a very specific location say, or you want to protect the RD in a given strategic system to protect your fleet supply line - I think agents should be mostly offensive, James Bond stuff. CI should just be background usually)

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

CI subtracting directly from your offense is a bad idea.

Along the lines of what you had there already, it should be a point-dump project which randomly triggers every now and then. When triggered it would half/quarter/subtract a set amount/redirect and inflict on the enemy/etc an enemy intel project.

This would be your CI guys discovering the plot, and setting it back varying amounts, or even causing it to backfire.
(Sir, our counter-intel agents discovered a plot to bomb one of our planets, and have neutralized the threat. The bomb was detonated before it could be loaded on the final transport, and has infected Colony XYZ of the ABC empire with a class V plague!)

Note that the above situation would mean the enemy must have been trying to bomb your planet...
If they were merely trying to steal intel, the backfire could cause some of their own research to be broadcast to everybody they have met, or perhaps cause the partially completed projects to reset.

[ May 26, 2004, 02:21: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

The trouble with me is, all my best ideas tie into all my other (completely unrelated) ideas. FOr example:

I think crew insurrection should be handled as a boarding combat, and PPP should be handled as planetary combat. This makes good sense: A proportion of the crew/population/local planetary troops turn on the rest and fight it out for control. The amount of crew/pop/troops that turn should be determined by the margin of success in the intel vs counter-intel calculations after taking into account the factors suggested in previous Posts to this thread (ie racial inclinations to rebel against this empire, planet's overall mood etc)

However this only really works if boarding combat is made significantly more complex than it is now, and ground combat could do with a few improvements as well. This isn't the place for suggestions on improved ground and boarding combat though, so I'll shut up now=-)

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In Master of Orion II you had to build spies and assign them to an enemy empire, with a mission. Each turn, your spies have a chance of success (the more spies, the more chances) and have a risk to be captured by ennemy.
I think it's a more realistic view than building intelligence facilities on your own planets...

Maybe we can think of a "spy academy" facility which allows you to build spies on a planet (to limit the number of spies produced each turn).

Re: SEV - Intel Suggestions for MM
 

Good stuff folks- keep in coming. I figure we can ship this next week to MM.

I can see the merit in going in the spy / project direction... or augmenting the current system to somehow include it.

It is a valid idea to base our expectations on something we found that worked well. But also, the developers must be cognizant of imitating a model from another game too closely...