Re: Poland OOB
 

I was going to deal with Rosomaks in detail next week after gathering some more info, but since they have been invoked... ;)

Rosomak-S is just unarmed transport vehicle for 2 Spike crews. However, I haven't figured out yet in which formations it is used.

There were plans to merge Hitfist manned turret with Spike from the beginning, but somehow it hasn't been done and lately there are no talks on this subject anymore, especially, that Hitfist is already ageing design, and needing Italian parts.
But indeed, new ZSSW-30 Polish unmanned turred was developed in a meantime, with newest 30 mm Bushmaster (with an option for programable ammo), UKM-2000 CMG and two Spike launchers. Recently I've read, that it might enter production in 2023.

Therefore, units 679,680 Rosomak 2 should represent the vehicle used (hopefully) from 2023. No other changes are needed (unless we want to create newest generation TI). They have 4 Spikes - I don't know if there will be reloads. The name "Rosomak 2" will be most probably wrong, but might stay as for now.


Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo ;)

<strike>Also, multicolor camo 3543 was introduced on all Rosomaks during their service, but I haven't figured yet when so far (say, 2010 as well).</strike> Correction: after research, basic Rosomaks had multicolor camo from the beginning, only uparmoured ones were green.

<strike>So I propose to change desert icon of 207 Rosomak to green 3541 and make it available until 12/09, then add the second one with 3543/3544/3542 camo.</strike>

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.


667 Rosomak-Rak - name should be just Rak (or SMK-120 Rak). Rak (lobster) is the vehicles's name.

Re: Poland OOB
 

I just try insert all info from different sources and also include PIBWL sugestions about rosomak different versions into OOB so here is proposition of changes inside polish OOB.

I checked version's of rosomak with small MG towers there existing three variants. So Don has right they are but has not nice pictures which I added propably need also new icons which my prepare in not so long time.

• M2 early variant used in Chad 2008 only with ukm2000
• M3 only with ukm2000 / with 40mm Mk19 GL and ukm2000 / 12.7mm WKM-B & ukm2000 the same with version M3M

there are also different FO vehicles variants etc. I prepared this in OOB98 but can be easy copied to Polish OOB02 I looked to put this in free slots. I also add diffrent class for Rosomak S to be only transporter for spike teams snd add diffrent class for Rosomak 2 with ZSSW tower and spikes because read article that when they will be introduced in 2024 this new vehicles will go one peer platoon of older rosomak propably so I used class 220 Heavy MRV APC

Re: Poland OOB
 

To finnish with Rosomaks:

681 Rosomak M1 - might actually start at 7/07 (now 8/07) - first uparmoured vehicles entered action in Afghanistan in late July already.

Formations: Rosomak IFV

I've found information about platoon structure and it needs an adjustment, to lower its manpower. The info is taken from one article in Polish "Raport" magazine in 2013 and the other in MOD magazine "Przeglad Sil Zbrojnych" (Armed Forces Reviev) 4/2014, written by a battalion commander (Lt Col).

Current unit 337 Mech Rifle Sec has 8 men - unfortunately, Polish sections carried in Rosomaks have only up to 6 men. It could be 7 only if we artificially split platoon HQ (4). Weapons are correct: UKM-2000 LMG, Pallad GL, RPG-7.

(In fact, the section has 6 or even 5 men, which we should disregard as some abberation ;) The 2013 article says about 5 men, but the battalion commander says "5 or 6", and complains, that the section is "tragically weak" comparing to US one, in terms of riflemen not manning team weapons).

These sections are carried also on BWP-1 (BMP-1), but according to other article in Armed Forces Review 1/2015, sections on BMP are the same. I don't know unfortunately, when 6-men sections were adopted, so 1/100 should remain.

Owing to smaller sections, in Afghanistan Rosomaks were used with only 6 seats to make more room, but I believe we don't need that.


Form. 344 MRV IFV Pl (-) consists of 4 Rosomaks and 4 sections 337. It should be 3 sections and a support section.
The support section consists of:
- 60 mm mortar section (with two men and one mortar #30 - needs new unit)
- 40mm MK19 AGL (unit 097)
I have no idea though, what was used before an advent of Mk19s, which was the first weapon of such class in Poland (they first appeared in 11/07, but for vehicle armament at first, and I also don't know when they were distributed to mechanized infantry).

The article on BMP-1 says, that in a support section it carries five men with 60 mm mortar and 40 mm grenade launcher (presumably rifle-mounted Pallad), so maybe it was the same - and unit 339 Scouts will do? So, there should be earlier Rosomak platoon, until, say 2008, with 60 mm mortar and scouts?

Also from Armed Forces Reviev one might learn, that for "several years", for unknown strange reasons, there are no snipers anymore in mechanized platoons...

BTW: good photos of Polish 60 mm LM-60D mortar are https://www.konflikty.pl/wp-content/...5%BAdzierz.jpg, https://cdn-legacy.defence24.pl/defe...eeccec13ce.png (concerning also unit 508 60mm Mortar Sec)



Form. 339 MRV IFV Pl (+) - similar, but differing in Spike section. In fact, Spike missiles are not used on platoon level in Poland - only in battalion's support company (http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/a...e-tylko-zestaw, https://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/in...spike&catid=16 )
Therefore, this platoon is redundant (as a result we don't need "(-)" in 344 MRV IFV Pl (-), but on the other hand, there should be some difference in name between mechanized infantry platoon and sole Rosomak platoon 329)

Form. 336 MRV IFV Co is correct (three platoons, no extras).
The first article linked above says, that usually AT section with Rosomak-S and two Spikes is attached to the company, but it belongs to support company structure.
BTW, the photo there shows, that Rosomak-S really has no even a pintle MG... (icon and photo like unit 448 Rosomak CC - the photo is the same btw).


Formations: Rosomak APC
Concerning 217 MRV APC class units: 208,672,673- Rosomak M3, 669,670,671 Rosomak M3M.

[deleted - I'll re-edit this section to make it simpler]

Re: Poland OOB
 

Rosomak icons

I've found an article in "Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 4/2010, which claims, that green vehicles already in Afghanistan are not repainted, but only new vehicles will be painted sand. It coincides with introduction of RPG nets (M1M and M3M variants), so there is no need to create new M1 and M3 units with sand desert camo and please disregard my earlier suggestion. M1 may remain green, M1M may be just sand, however there are photos of green vehicles equipped with new sand RPG nets as well.

So, unit 681 Rosomak M1 should just receive green icon 3541 for desert.

Units 208, 672, 673 Rosomak M3 should have green 3567 icon both as standard and desert one (they are not supposed to be used in Europe, so they received standard green camo, used for Chad and Afghanistan missions)

On the other hand, basic unit 207 Rosomak should have standard multicolor icon 3543 and green desert icon 3541

Unit 679 Rosomak 2 also should have standard multicolor icon 3550.

Rosomak armour:

There is also new information about armour. It is confirmed in newest articles, that uparmoured Rosomaks M1, M1M, M3 and M3M have composite multilayer additional front plate proof against RPG-7. Polish author Jarosław Wolski, specializing in armour issues, claims even that it is equivalent to 500 mm RHA given its inclination ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 8/21). The same will be for hypothetical uparmoured unit 680 Rosomak 2M.
Against AP ammo, it is said to be proof against 30mm 2A42, so it might be 9 instead of 8. On the other hand, front turret was not uparmoured, only sides and rear, bringing protection to Stanag level IV (front: level III+, see below).

Variants with RPG screens (M1M, M3M) have also screened part of rear hull (without doors).

On the other hand, armour of ordinary 207 Rosomak should be a bit weaker.
Hull front is Stanag level IV (5 seems correct), but hull and turret sides are level III (against 7.62mm AP, so 4 is too much). Turret front is level III+ (against 12.7 mm, so 5 is too much).
The same hull armour should have other vehicles on this chassis: 448 Rosomak CC, 579 Rosomak Ammo, 667 Rosomak-Rak, 679 Rosomak 2.

Re: Poland OOB
 

Formations: Rosomak APC (continued)
Concerning class 217 MRV APC units:
208,672,673 Rosomak M3,
669,670,671 Rosomak M3M.

First of all, it should be noted, that Rosomak M3 were not conceived as APC, but were only a stop-gap measure to supplement Rosomak IFVs on foreign missions, mostly as transport and logistics vehicles. Initially Polish Army planned APC variant Rosomak-1, but couldn't choose an unmanned turret, so the program was cancelled and the Army remained with over 100 produced chassis, waiting for further decisions. It was decided to arm a number with provisional open mountings and sent to Chad and Afghanistan mssions. Initially these units in the game were meant to be Rosomak-1 APC (changed in 2012 https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/show...t=48222&page=9 ), and apparently inherited its formations.

Units 208, 672, 673 Rosomak M3 (uparmoured) should start in "late 2008" [now 6/08], according to newly found detailed article - only then problems with heavy armoured gun ring OSS-D were solved. These gun rings should have Stanag III armour only (against 7.62mm AP), so now it's much too much (same for Rosomak M3M units).

Already from 6/08 there were used vehicles with ordinary armour and lighter OSS-M gun ring, for Chad peacekeeping mission, so they could be added (12.7mm version would be enough). They aren't named, but possibly the name Rosomak M2, mentioned in several places, applies to them (otherwise Rosomak OSS-M). The color was plain green, and they were used until end of 2009.

As for Rosomak M3, I suggest to end them with an advent of M3M, introducing anti-Heat nets (7/10).

As for M3M, I suggest to end these MRV APC units totally by mid-2014, when the mission in Afghanistan ended. They are not used by regular units in Poland and I assume they are stored, awaiting conversion with 30 mm ZZSW-30 turrets or to other specialized variants. There is little probability, that new foreign mission will emerge, with a need to send provisionally armed patrol vehicles.

(edited: in 2020 it was ordered to modify three M3 to some unspecified role, probably connected with command vehicles https://milmag.pl/dodatkowe-rosomaki...ecjalistyczna/ . However, it is not clear, if they are meant to remain M3, or rather be rebuilt to some other variant. Anyway, I think we don't need M3 after 2014, even if there would be some accidental usage. Alternatively, we could remove combat platoons with infantry by that date, and leave only formations with sole vehicles.)

(BTW, as for units 670, 673 with 40mm AGL - additional UKM-2000 is not CMG, but ordinary MMG on improvised pintle mount, if it matters - a field modification, known from photographs. It may even supersede a variant with sole 40mm AGL, and eg. 672 Rosomak M3 might be converted to M2 mentioned above)


Formations using class MRV APC:
252 Mec Bn Spt MRV - Available: 06/108-12/125
343 MRV ATGM Pl - Available: 06/108-12/125
345 MRV ATGM Sec - Available: 06/108-12/125
- ATGMs should be carried by unarmed Rosomak-S. But 4-launcher formation 252 seems redundant: primary formation is 2-launcher section (345), and we have also a whole AT platoon with 6 launchers (343).

330 MRV APC Pl - Available: 06/108-12/125
332 MRV APC - Available: 06/108-12/125
- correct formations of sole APC (however, in case of 330, it might be worthy to mix MG and AGL armed vehicles, for one period of time at least)

334 MRV Company (+) - Available: 06/108-12/125
335 MRV Company - Available: 06/108-12/125
340 MRV Platoon - Available: 06/108-12/125
- MRV companies are redundant, because these vehicles were not supposed to be used in companies.
As for MRV Platoon, I suggest to create a mixed Afghanistan patrol platoon, with two Rosomak M1 IFV and two Rosomak M3. It might be called eg. MRV ISAF Plt - so one could choose all-IFV platton or such mixed platoon for Afghanistan ISAF scenarios. As with IFV above, there are three sections and a support section of 60mm mortar and 40 mm AGL.
Again, we could mix two kinds of Rosomak M3 in a template (optimally, two platoons for different periods, the second with Rosomak M3M).

341 MRV Bn Spt Pkg - Available: 06/108-12/125
359 98mm MRV Mtr - Available: 06/108-12/125
- 98 mm mortars are towed by trucks only, not Rosomaks, and we have a formation with mortars towed by utiliy vehicles.


One last thing: photos of Rosomak M3 an M3M don't show these variants, which should have big open armoured gun ring.
M3 is here: https://modelwork.pl/uploads/monthly...e0bccf2884.jpg , https://modelwork.pl/uploads/monthly...01e2bbcdc5.jpg , https://www.rosomaksa.pl/kto-rosomak-z-obrotnica.html, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...anistan_27.jpg
I will have to scan M3M photos, because they are not in the net.


To finnish with Rosomaks:
Rosomak S should be created for Spike sections, using 448 Rosomak CC as a template (with corrected basic armour). Class 23 APC (wheel) is free at that time. Date should be around 6/108 (like formations 252, 343, 345 - date more/less correct). It can swim. (It has popular nickname "Spike-o-bus" ;) )

BTW: Rosomaks with basic armour can swim 10 km/h, so speed:2 might be too low.

448 Rosomak CC - FO vehicle. There exists such vehicle Rosomak AWR, for Rak mortars - hopefully, introduced in 2022. It will be armed in #98 UKM-2000 CMG,

(597 Rosomak Ammo - there are no Rosomak ammo carriers, and there are no such plans)

667 Rosomak-Rak - it has no machine gun, especially CMG. It has laser RF. There is no mention, if it can swim, but photos don't show screws...
(I've already written, that the name should be Rak or M120K Rak or SMK-120 Rak)

679, 680 Rosomak 2/2M - ammunition of ZSSW-30 turret is going to be 400 (20+20 - now 18+18).

I hope that's all.

Re: Poland OOB
 

Accidentally, I found detailed articles about Czechoslovak RPGs in Polish Army - and there are some inaccuracies, also in their performance:

Czech P-27 RPG was used in Poland from 6/53 until mid-1960s (say, 1963), in 2600 pieces - a forgotten weapon in Poland nevertheless, replaced by Soviet RPG-2. I'm attaching Polish photo.

There is already weapon #27, but its range should be 150 m [now: 2] (according to Polish trials it was "very accurate especially up to 125 m").
On the other hand, penetration (tested) was only 150-170 mm (now 25). It also concerns other users, especially Czechoslovakia (weapon #15 P27 Pancerovka).

Unit 312 Scouts using P-27 should be available from 6/53 at the earliest (now 1/052) - earlier unit 303 needs extending.

---
372 RPG-2 Team - used only from late 1957 (say 6/57) [now 6/54] according to article in "Poligon" 6/2013

A couple of other units using RPG-2 needs correcting as well:
291 - Special Forces - Available 06/054 (unit 290 should be extended then)
310 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055 (earlier infantry overlaps this period)
316 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055
317 - Rifle Section - Available 01/055
318 - Scouts - Available 01/055 (unit 312 should be extended then)
386 - Naval Infantry - Available 01/054
451 - Ski Scouts - Available 01/055 (unit 450 should be extended then)
461 - Ski Riflemen - Available 01/055
768 - SMG Section - Available 01/053
782 - Motorcycle Sec - Available 01/052 (unit 781 should be extended then)
783 - Motorcycle Sec - Available 01/055

---
Surprisedly, Czech T-21 Tarasnice RCL was also available from 6/55 until early 1960s (say, 1961) - totally unknown weapon in Poland, although quite a number (410) were bought and kept in reserve for tank hunters ("Poligon" 3/2014). The same class I think, but radio must be 3. I'm attaching Polish pictures.

There might be copied Czech unit 366 T-21 Team, but there should be no HE ammo (also for Czechoslovakia)!

Czech weapon #158 82mm Tarasnice has range 6, but its maximum aimed range was in fact 600 m (with dispersion up to 0.8m on this range). It concerns also Egyptian weapon #159.

(Czech unit 375 T21 RCL HE and weapon #157 82mm T21 RCL HE with range 56 raise doubts - despite maximum range of the grenade was 2800 m http://www.csla.cz/zbrane/pancerovky/t21.htm , but I haven't found any info, that it was useful on any range above 600 m. It was direct fire weapon with no sights to shoot in ballistic way (both iron and optical sights were scaled up to 600 m) and used HEAT ammo with only some HE effect. According to "Poligon" article, HE ammunition was envisaged, but there is no info if it ever entered production)


---
BTW, pictures for Special Forces are messed - I'm attaching proper propositions:
289,293 Special Forces - picture is AKSU-74, not PM-84 SMG

290 Special Forces - photo is hard to identify, not PPS SMG (and not special forces, judging from field caps)

292 Special Forces - picture is PPSh, not PPS SMG

292 Special Forces - picture is PPSh, not PM-63 SMG

294,297 Special Forces - picture is AKSU-74, not Beryl SMG

I'm also attaching the only good photo of Rosomak M3M that I have found, and photo of unit 129 Yak 9P (also the only good ones)

Re: Poland OOB
 

Save yourself the time and trouble of making LBM's. There is no easy way to say how unusable they are for the most part

Re: Poland OOB
 

To end with Poland, misc comments:

AFV:

402 T-72M1 - it's pretty lame "modernization", but from late 2019 (say 1/20) there are introduced modified T-72M1R with TI vision. Sadly, fire control and all the rest are the same. (I'm leaving aside the gun, which in fact on all Polish T-72s should remain on late 1980s level..).

541 Wz.77 Dana - better name is just Dana. "Wz.77" alone doesn't make much sense (it is: "armatohaubica wz. 1977" - "gun-howitzer 1977 pattern"), but this official designation is rarely used.
In last years they were modernized to Dana-T, fitted to modern artillery command and control (C3ISTAR) system Topaz, but I'm not sure if it has any impact on single unit's stats.

578 BRDM-2 Szakal - armour should be the same as basic version - only difference was armament, sand camouflage and air conditioning for Iraqi mission...
It might have better survivability, than ordinary BRDM-2 [3], because it has auxiliary wheels removed and side doors added (the same for units 570-572, 576-577)

610 Osa-AKM-P1 - I don't know if it matters in case of SP-SAM, but it also has laser RF

202 ZSU-23-MP Biala - it was rare vehicle at first - only one prototype was used in the army from 2005 [1/05], next two were modified in mid-2006, 3 in 2007... I'm afraid a significant number appeared around 2010 or later.


Guns

91,92 122mm Field Gun - of course it is pure Field Howitzer

174 122mm Gun Sec - photo is not used in Poland post-war cannon. Poland used only wartime A-19 (later modified with pneumatic wheels). There is original A-19 photo 41091 (Finnish).

204, 206 98mm Mortar - delivered only in a course of 2004 (say, 10/04) (now 10/03)

551 85mm AT-gun - photo is 100mm gun, should be 29428

564 S-125 Newa-SC,
669 SA-3 Neva SC - names should be unified. I can't verify dates at the moment, but according to one article from 1996, the first one should rather be S-125 Newa-S (self-propelled), and only the second one S-125 Newa-SC ("cyfrowy" = digital).

For a sake of consistency, 048 S-125 Neva and 041 S-125 Neva M might be renamed Polish name "Newa" and "Newa-M".


I haven't browsed all units, but that's more than enough...

Re: Poland OOB
 

......I'm sure there is at least 2 people willing to tell me if these will be armed and if so, with what

Re: Poland OOB
 

Looking of this article https://zbiam-pl.translate.goog/arty..._x_tr_pto=wapp I will said that are laser guided bombs Roketsan MAM-L i MAM-C of Turkish production. I spouse the same was buy by Ukraine meaby?

Re: Poland OOB
 

You're getting one MAM to cover both types.....weapon slots getting low

Re: Poland OOB
 

I just thinking about something related I wrote about SPWWIII as a joke but after all that may be quite usefully idea.

Many politics in Poland says that this war on Ukraine is an Historical Event (in good and in bad sense) and will shape history of Europe & (West in broad sense) for years to come. So I just think meaby will be worth to consider release in some future new game in series and for example close SPMBT years coverage in 2021. That is 71 years covered in OOB's much more than 15 years in case SPWWII.

That new game meaby named SPWWIII (in relation to Pope Francis words from 2014) or SPPMBT (Steel Panthers Post Modern Battle Tanks) or whatever name we will found better. On the beginning that may be just SPMBT code and just different coverage from 2022-2025 that will free OOB's from WW2 50's 60's equipment and weapons so will be many slots for new units and weapons. And then after some time additions like fighting in Chernobyl area with radioctive dust behind tanks or Hybrid war in some way implemented inside code. Just starts to dreaming :) btw. this video in my opinion shows where this war on Ukraine may bring us all in funny way in near future
https://twitter.com/iam_Farjan/statu...MbH-iZE_xp8iTg

Re: Poland OOB
 

As for now this is the only weapon carried by Bayraktar, so there's no much choice - surprisingly effective, judging from films ;)
I've read an article, that it can carry two MAM-L, plus optionally two small MAM-C.

Re: Poland OOB
 

Honestly....... I DON'T CARE..... if you do build your own OOB and post it to the MODS section

Re: Poland OOB
 

Correction: with less endurance it can take four bigger MAM-L. Which are pretty lightweight (22 kg), but can blow a vehicle anyway.
There is Ukrainian song recently ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVZHLOV60E

Re: Poland OOB
 

Here is a working version of "Byraktar song" [english subtitles] about Bayraktar TB2. Probably best advertisement for manufacturing company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zii0G9lr6rQ

Re: Poland OOB
 

In my dreams......

There is a slight chance I might make adjustments to these formations but only slight

First off there are no spare empty mortar unit classes except Para mortar team which is a normal infantry unit that can be dropped but it is not an indirect mortar formation. It's used for direct fire only

Maybe the manpower has been cut back so they are tiny units and maybe that might change.

http://www.military-today.com/apc/rosomak.htm

says it will hold 2 crew and 10 passengers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTO_Rosomak

says commander, driver, gunner and 8 passengers

and I know as sure as the sun rises and sets whatever I do to try to make that work will be nitpicked because it cannot be made to exactly match "reality"

......so EXPECT to be "disappointed"

Re: Poland OOB
 

The latter is theoretical capacity coming from number of seats. The former is... I don't know, there aren't as many seats (I've seen it myself) ;) - possibly planned APC variant with one-man turet.

Thank you for you efforts and dedication anyway.

Re: Poland OOB
 

If nothing else comes from this at least now I can pronounce 'Bayraktar' with a convincing Ukrainian Accent and a new earworm that keeps popping into my head:)

Re: Poland OOB
 

I can make this work only if it has a start date of 1/2009 so that's when it starts with the 40mm GL and 60mm Mort

Re: Poland OOB
 

One more confirmation of Rosomak squad - a picture that was posted recently on one fb group about Polish military. There was also posted an information, that squads really have 5 men, with an option for 6th man from reserve forces... :( Of course, we should stick with a bigger number.
(Just to explain, the first vehicle has 7 men, with platoon commander and radio operator. "Załoga" is a crew.)

There are no snipers in a platoon indeed, they can be assigned from company level.

Re: Poland OOB
 

Pibwl, as far as I know - and I just asked a friend serving there :P - they do train combat with 6 dismounted men, but in administrative practice 6th guy should be coming from NSZ (Narodowe Siły Rezerwowe - like quasi National Guard) assets.

Don't ask me why, but theoretically dismounts could be 6 or 7 men, as Squad Leader may elect to dismount with his troops instead of manning the Rosomak command.

Re: Poland OOB
 

Meanwhile, random topic change from Ukraine matters - let's head back to the '80s

PART 1/2

I have recently stumbled at this very decent T-55 upgrades article by people who clearly know how it all works:
http://opisybroni.pl/t-55am-merida/

I am not sure if Google Translate will do, so let me roughly translate fragments that are of meaning to me (and honestly, I should have translate it all!):

Actually it is worth to note what the authors write at the end - where they compare the armor protection to western weapons of the ERA, still falsely assuling that TOW penetration capability was at 600mm which we today know - is false:


Summary:
- Effective protection of T-55AM - including polish T-55 "Merida" upgrade - should be actually higher than it currently is;
- One needs to think what to do with a gun sleeve area that was an obvious weak spot in protection;
- Current T-55 Merida in-game effective protection is:
Steel hull: 28cm
Steel turret: 33cm
Anti-HEAT hull: 33cm
Anti-HEAT turret: 35cm

Thus, probably should be:
Steel hull: 30cm
Steel turret: 35cm (this includes the weakspot, otherwise about 40cm)
Anti-HEAT hull: 45cm
Anti-HEAT turret: 45cm or about 40cm (including the weak spot?)

- What could be done with side armor? Increase anti-HEAT to about ~17cm to increase the work of angled shots with those rubber skirts?
- Said update was quite universal - it should probably be applied not only to Merida, but all other T-55AM upgrades, mostly the DDR one and Czech Kladivo program;
- The general idea is that it seems upgraded T-55s had the possibility to actually fend off TOW strikes (mean standard TOW, not I-TOW or TOW-2). I believe it should be reflected in the game, but not without taking the weakspot into account;
- Note on the side: about 650 polish T-55s were brought up to this standard, but formally only three divisions were listed with this tank. In other words, even in 1989 the T-55M and T-55U should technically still be available for Poland as line tanks, not just reserve ones as they are now;

Re: Poland OOB
 

PART 2/2

Now, the same articles I mentioned in the previous post also does touch the idea of ammunition used in polish T-55 upgrade:

- Many tanks in the game are armed with "100mm D10TG 79" weapon, that seems to be comparable and proper choice for this set of rounds
- More modern Soviet rounds relied on better flight stabilization rather than increased penetration. Thus perhaps if you wished to include such a change, the gun accuracy should be improved, but not penetration data

Re: Poland OOB
 

As for T-55AM Merida you're probably right, I didn't want to research details there...

Many good words were recently said about Piorun, concerning its usage in Ukraine. There is an opinion among experts (Polish ones though), that it might be the most advanced MANPADS at the moment, with effective homing head algorithms and advanced decoy selection. There are pre-programed modes, optimized for aircraft, UAV and misiles, and for weather conditions. Reportedly no other MANPAD have proximity fuze, which Piorun has. During trials it destroyed 57 mm S-5 rockets.

Re: Poland OOB
 

So....... 5 men... maybe 6 but 7 in the first vehicle :doh:

so maybe 22 --- maybe 25 ( maybe )

What is in my OOB now, and that is a formation with 3 Rosomaks and one BWP that includes a 60mm mortar and 40mm AGL for the BWP is ( excluding the vehicle crews ) a troop count of 26 in all four vehicles.

Be happy with that. If not, use MOBHack to adjust your OOB however you like once the update is released ( whenever that might be )

Re: Poland OOB
 

I'd go just with 6 men in each.

Re: Poland OOB
 

You're getting what I said your getting in #77

Re: Poland OOB
 

http://www.the-monitor.org/en-gb/rep...an-policy.aspx

There are no Hvy Cluster arty or air in the Polish OOB past 2010. ( there still is 98mm mortar cluster )

This has now been "corrected" Hvy arty Cluster and air is now back to 2025 end date

Re: Poland OOB
 

A reminder on which countries have signed the convention on cluster munitions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conven...Convention.svg

Re: Poland OOB
 

Yep and Poland and Ukraine are not on the list

Re: Poland OOB
 

Interesting story about Cougar HEV 4x4 in Polish army.

They were in years 2009-2014 in use by polish units in Afghanistan then returned to US army and now they coming back ...

Poland buy around 300 in version 4x4 to be used in eastern border as patrol vehicle and as utility car better than Tarpan Honker.
https://defbrief.com/2022/06/22/pola...s-from-the-us/

Tarpan Honker armoured
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-c...k-jpg.2352787/

Coguar in "European camo"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYlZZNHW...jpg&name=large

Probably these used vehicles are interim solution until better suitable for european roads will be available in bigger number. Polish future MRAP is probably HSW-Tatra Jelcz 4x4

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-c...w-jpg.2353066/

Also variant with Brimstone rockets is planed to replace old BRDM2 rockets versions in AT mobile units.

https://www.hsw.pl/aktualnosci/konso...cieli-czolgow/

https://www.hsw.pl/wp-content/upload...ISZCZYCIEL.png

Re: Poland OOB
 

Have some proposition how is possible to put this again available Cougar in Polish OOB without use of additionally slots. Meaby is possible to extend unit years 2009-2025 and do years 2014- April 2022 unviable by remove formation so player will can't buy them .

I'm just also curious if is possible place in game units for this vehicle or meaby as a off map artillery?

BAOBAB-K Scatterable Mine-laying vehicle
https://militaryleak.com/2022/07/25/...duction-phase/

https://i0.wp.com/militaryleak.com/w...pg?w=600&ssl=1

Re: Poland OOB
 

The Spike ATGM platoon in MRV Company+ (334) is only available until 2021. Should it be later?

Re: Poland OOB
 

343 ends 11/ 2021 and 348, which has the same structure starts up 12/ 2021 then runs to 12/25 but 348 is not used by any formation and when I get time I will dig into it...... it ran to 2025 the previous release and 338 did not exist. There may have been a formation structure adjustment that was WIP

Re: Poland OOB
 

Also, I could not find any difference between infantry units 268 and 269 except for LBM and 'available from'. They appear as options for Rifle Company (006).

Re: Poland OOB
 

Bayraktar TB2 unit 693 in Polish OOB were introduced in 9/2022 in reality they are aviable since 10/2022 so very close the date were deducted last year :)

Polish introduced also K2 and K9A1 in this year propablly 11/2022 into units. first tanks are already in European camo

https://zbiam.pl/prezentacja-pierwsz...tohaubic-k9a1/

https://zbiam.pl/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/K1.jpg


Also K239 Chunmoo will be introduced in next year don't know when build on polish Jelcz chasis here is visualisation of this vehicle https://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=38267

BWP AS21 is also tested in Poland already nice photo in european camo https://www.altair.com.pl/news/view?news_id=38277

Re: Poland OOB
 

OK...........

1/will the K2PL be using the gun-fired missile?

2/What's the difference that would change anything in the game between the K9A1 and unit 37?

Re: Poland OOB
 

Well, I see there were no takers out here to answer the questions so I guess that leaves me just when I thought I could go to bed!?! :rolleyes:

1. I've reviewed my files on the deal w/Poland and conducted a further web search geared toward the KASTAM-II which is the current version in use by the South Korean Army.

The search was unsuccessful and personally I feel unlikely to happen given the technologies involved. The KASTAM-II sort of reminds me of the STRIX in its mode of deployment and operations.
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/moder...ck-panther.php
(Go to FIREPOWER it gives the best description on KASTAM.)

The K2 is capable of firing any NATO standard tank ammo. It should be noted which is why...
"Nammo has secured an agreement to develop new and modern 120mm ammunition for Hyundai Rotem Companies’ K2 Black Panther main battle tank (MBT)."
This is to support the European operators of the K2 tank.
https://militaryleak.com/2022/10/07/...n-battle-tank/
(From Oct 8th.)

This furthers my case that it appears South Korea like Japan is wanting to hold on to their secrets when it comes to ammo and armor.

2. Overall it's much more accurate the CEP will be much smaller due to the fact that the K9A1 has added an Inertial Navigation System (INS) coupled to the existing GPS that the K9 carried. Also has a new Auto. FCS. The ref breaks it down very easily.

Both share protection against 155mm shrapnel and 14.5mm AP.
https://www.hanwha-defense.co.kr/eng...0power%20units.
https://www.hanwha-defense.co.kr/eng...-system-k10.do
Might need some of these as well.

And for people like me who seek a deeper meaning of things at times I give you the following with NAMMO mentioned again :p ...
https://www.emerald.com/insight/cont...0011/full/html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Poland OOB
 

Most of what we do is based on the info we can find and the info we can find is always "old news". Sometimes I have to guesstimate.... sometimes that actually works

For now I am giving the K2PL Mesko.........for now. I don't think (?)this deal involves ammo from Korea

Exports: The Altay

ROTFLMAO.......

Like I said "old news"

EDIT

The "Altay issue" is compounded by.......


https://www.jpost.com/international/article-720204

Re: Poland OOB
 

Pat thank you for this fast answer you have right about real tankers there :( but I try a little bit late but this what I know.

I'm also rather certain that this KASTAM-II will not be used simple is not mentioned anywhere. Also K2PL is a little bit different to standard South Korean K2 Black Panther. Has according to this article https://tech.wp.pl/polskie-czolgi-wy...4691892239296a

Improved construction of armour shell (so probably better than original version but how much ???)
Hull is longer a little bit if you ask how much is mentioned that additional 7th wheel was added

Also are there two MG I my spouse that they may be a polish origin one 12.7mm and one 7.62mm

That all my suggest that New icon may be needed with a little bit longer hull and new polish camo.

https://i.redd.it/v6jqlst43i591.jpg

Re: Poland OOB
 

So the K2PL looks like a Leo 2A5/6 but with square grills over the engine and cage armour around the engine
.
That simplifies Icon creation........

That said that is NOT how it looks in the photos provided so far and note this photo showing the Polish Flag is a six-wheel vehicle

https://zbiam.pl/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/K1.jpg

So MAYBE we should wait until one rolls off the boat..........

Re: Poland OOB
 

For giggles......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx_fbmsSXlk

Note the vehicle .04 seconds in DOES have 7 roadwheels but it's also flying a Turkish flag and .21 seconds and 32 seconds in there is another one but it has six and at 1:02 were back to 7.

At 3:03 they mention adding a 7th road wheel and increasing the weight to over 60 tons with added armour

Let me know when they roll off the boat and we'll see how close this is........
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1666725009

Re: Poland OOB
 

Now I'm also confused but when I look precisely on K2 photo from South Korean roll of ceremony looks more like ordinary K2 Black Panther but in polish camo. Maeaby they are ordinary one version and K2PL will be build in Poland in this version somewhere around 2024/2025. Modern tanks were necessary for yesterday so that is why this hurry?

Hurray :) I found answer on Official government page https://www-gov-pl.translate.goog/we..._x_tr_pto=wapp

First 180 build in Korea scheduled for 2022-2025 are original K2 Black Panther
Next 820 tanks build in Poland in years 2026 -? in K2PL configuration
First 180 starting in year 2026 will be rebuild also to K2PL standard.
So lets assume that after 2028/29 all the tanks will be in K2PL version :)

BTW Greet icon meaby used also to Norwegian future tank K2NO :)

Re: Poland OOB
 

https://www.armyrecognition.com/imag...my_925_001.jpg


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1666728501

Re: Poland OOB
 

Thank you Don
Icons are great and my regards for that you done them so fast :)

When I look on official polish government site mentioned earlier I also found informations that meaby usefully to polish OOB:

48 vehicles K9A1 deliveries in years 2022 to 2023 (they are Korean version with their gun only communication system is Polish)
K9PL new variant will be based on K9A2 will be delivered in 2024 and production in Poland starts in 2026. Also older first K9A1 will be rebuild then to K9PL standard

Re: Poland OOB
 

24 years of experience teaches a thing or two.........


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1666729878

Re: Poland OOB
 

With all due respect, I actually feel the K2PL armor levels will fall somewhere either at the level of the current K1A1/K1A2 (With the K1A2 electronic system upgrades.) or at best between both the K1A1/K1A2 and K2.

Though we are not dealing with DU Armor issues here, we are certainly dealing with classified industrial secrets related in how the armor "came about" (R&D) and manufactured etc. etc.

I've already covered this ground which facilitated us to develop a plausible model for foreign sales M1A2C (SEP 3) tanks as entered in the game with the last patch.

S. Korea is well aware of the "courtship" between China and Russia and both are aligned with N. Korea. The last thing S. Korea wants to see is their version of the K2 being towed, transported or driven off a European battlefield that they have no interest in fighting at themselves.

Also, the same goes for the KASTAM munition which was never mentioned as part of this tank deal.

I have read articles to further this point, quoting U.S. ARMY officers that have no firm data concerning the TYPE 10 tank from Japan about its armor and latest ammo.

Foreign sale tanks come with options that we along with any major tank producing countries offer to foreign countries from armor, electronics etc. etc.

We did the same several years ago when the Ukraine developed the OPLOT-M (T) for Thailand.

Take a look for yourselves, we put together a very capable foreign sales M1A2C that can compete with anything out there.

It's just not an American M1A2C for all the reasons stated above and more not mentioned.

And to clarify and as I have already stated elsewhere, I absolutely can see if the Ukraine should ever get those LEOPARD 2A5 tanks, game wise, they should be the latest version they (Germany) had in service before they retired them.

I hope you see the difference in this last versus the above for a countries most advanced fielded tank.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Poland OOB
 

They arrived here is movie

https://twitter.com/i/status/1600167432588509185

tanks are in polish camo and SP K9A1 are painted in standard Korean camo.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-rec...ropelled-guns/


Also Polish Neva SC are in Ukraine already
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/polish-s-1...ng-in-ukraine/

Re: Poland OOB
 

I have heard (can't remember where) that DU is no longer part of the secret sauce on the latest and greatest M1A2 [whatever we call it now] package for US forces.