Epic Heroes Mod MA game(finished)

[Xietor]

We are just going to live with the size 2 elephants. They are a rare dom summon, there will not be many of them, and I am not sure whether the lack of trample is a blessing or curse. likely a blessing to arcos. because the elephants in question get 2 attacks headbutt and trunk.

[lch]

No, changing a mod midgame shouldn't make any trouble unless you break stuff. But you gotta fear those hoburg elephants!

[llamabeast]

Yeah, it should actually be possible to change a mod midgame - the problems in Alpaca were due to some bungling on my part. Still, I think Xietor's plan is to continue using the current version of the mod for the moment.

[Xietor]

well, the elephants have 72 hps. I am at a loss as to why the game mechanic gave them size 2. Shrug.

[Tuidjy]

I finally had a look at all the heroes and summons. I'm sorry to say, I feel
like quiting. I thought we were play testing a mod, but at this time, I think
that the mod was not ready to be playtested.

There is no balance whatsoever.

Some heroes bring very little to the nation. Vanheim's guy, for example, brings
two levels of nature, and not much else. He is never going to be worth much as a
combatant, and his summons will not sway balance. Pythium has an angel.
Crunchy early, common later. All he brings is fire magic. Marignon's hero
does not bring _anything_ to his nation.

Some heroes simply have the power of a pretender. The magic paths of the Tien
Chi hero make him into a rainbow searcher combined with an immortal
supercombatant. He is not as good as the original Vampire Queen in Dom II, but
once a bit or research is done, he is no worse that anything seen since. As for
the Pangaea treant, give me a break. A death helmet, soul vortex, personal
regeneration, and a few earth spells, and he will sneer at anything short of
Petrify.

As for the summons, what were you thinking? Take Ulm, for example. Ultra high
defense, insane protection, and no encumbrance to speak of. A weapon that puts
many construction 4 weapons to shame. A few per turn. Hello?

As for Mictlan? Jaguar warriors in crazy numbers. I pity the guy who ends up
next to him, if Mictlan has a fire blessing.

Overall, there is puzzling lack of consistency. Some heroes get very low
encumbrance, with no justification whatsoever. Some are left with the stats
and slots of the unit that inspired them (Pythium) other get revamped (Arco).
Units that have no reason to have high magic resistance do, artifact level
weapons get assigned to some, other are left with common crap. Creatures that
have traditionally had low defense end up with basic defense 15.

Etc... I will stay and fight, but the mod needs a rebalance for sure.

[jutetrea]

Bit harsh Tuidjy, the game is to test the balance of the mod in relation to the nations not hero to hero.

MA Mictlan sucks, gets an overpowered hero. MA Marignon doesn't suck, and therefore gets a less powerful hero.

When first trying them out I had a lot of the same impressions, but the few I've tried haven't been terrible. I'd say let the playtesting do its job and help balance them.

Suggestions are great, I just see no reason for harsh criticism this early in the process.

[Xietor]

I actually agree with you that the mod needs to be tested. But I disagree that it is not ready for play testing. And I welcome all forms of constructive criticism.

Mictlan's Hero was overpowered on purpose, because their race is awful. Vanheim's and Pythium, 2 of the toughest earlier expanders in mp, were deliberately given heroes that do not aid much in early expansion.

I took existing nation balance into account-not all heroes were created equal. And that was intentional. But I may well need to make many balance adjustments.

Machaka has the immortal assassin. The inspiration for him is MP experience has shown that they are vulnerable to an early rush. It will be very hard to rush Machaka when they have an immortal assassin.

Tien Chi-i did not design this epic hero, and in fact nerfed him a good deal already. I clipped his wings, and removed a bit of his magic, and reduced his h4 to h3.

I strongly disagree with you about vanheim's hero. But I may be proved wrong. While he will never be an sc, he does bring nature magic, spy ability, and he has 2 summons.

The clockworks, while not great, come in great numbers in a strong dominion. And the Watchers? What is not to like about a free lightning bolt caster that has a 50 patrol bonus? Ulm and Man's spies will never be able to instill uprising in vanheim's capital!

Marignon's pretender is able to dominion summon a sacred statue that raises dominion the same as a prophet. The name of the game is dominion, and having a very strong dominion is nothing to sneer at. Also, while the statues cannot fight back, try destroying one and inspect your units that hit one after!

Marignon's Epic hero also has a rare double of awe/fear, 4f, 2astral, 1h, inquisitor, mapmove 3, and good stats. recuperates and no old age issue. While he may not be an sc candidate with 13 hps, he will not need bodyguards either.
Finally,

Marignon's epic hero also raises the dominion of the province in which he dwells the same as a prophet(a new ability that can be modded as of 3.08). Plus he is an inquisitor, make him a prophet and preach and he is unequaled in ability to raise dominion in a province. To say he brings nothing to the table, i think, is wrong.

But I am open to suggestions, and the best place for the suggestions are on the mod forums so other people can add their thoughts.

Turin(author of worthy heroes) reviewed the heroes, and he agreed about tien chi, but was not as pessimistic about the others.

A flying h4 prophet with no old age issues is not bad for Pythium. And she has 49 hps! And can be augmented with a full compliment of items. And the Angel does have a good dose of fire magic as well. The Angel can be a terror by mid game properly outfitted.

Of course Pythium can summon angels later in the game, for a price, but having one on turn 1 is not bad either. She has awe, fire and lightning prot, insane stats. All she lacks is protection, and the fact she has none is intentional. And she has many valuable uses even on turn 1. She was actually 1 of the few heroes turin said was overpowerd.

The treant of pangaea(and i selected Pangaea after others picked-my 1st choice Man was taken) is tough early. But he has issues. He has a defense of zero! zero. he is susceptible to fire, and he has limited slots. If he is a prophet, with a strong bless, he can be a sc out of the gate, but so can a niefel giant, or even a ma jarl.

Try taking a province with the treant solo if he is not the prophet. Many of the epic heroes, with a strong bless pretender and made a prophet, can be an sc out of the gate.

But there really is no way to design a good melee hero that will not be an sc as a prophet and a strong bless. But the drawback of making your epic hero a prophet, is he is limited outside your dominion.

Take Beowulf. He has 27 hps. I would not make him a prophet because he is too valuable a battle commander. As a prophet he could not be used to spearhead an army deep into enemy dominion. Same as the black Duke of Ulm.

The summons of the Black Duke of Ulm are insanely tough. That is a reflection on the weakness of MA Ulm in mp games. With a mr of 9, in a world where the best mp players snag the astral races 1st, Ulm is just helpless late game against races like arcos that have cheap high level astral mages spamming soul slay.

Ulm is given the capability to finsh people off early, because once mid game rolls around, they are really vulnerable to the astral races.

Anyway, these heroes were not just popped up. Much thought went into their design, and many different people that had extensive multi playing experience helped tweak them.

And if you look at some of the worthy heroes, like the hydra commanders of ctis and pythium, i challenge you to say the treant is tougher.

[Tuidjy]

I guess we disagree on basic principles.

For example, I do not think that the way to balance a race that is strong early,
and weak late, is to give them 3-5 thugs per turn since turn 1. The Ulm summons
have no counter at least until turn 15. None. Ninety percent of the nations
have nothing that can touch them. Ultra high defense, insane protection,
respectable attack, ridiculously low encumberance. They group well, they swarm,
they do not tire. They can destroy ten times their number of anything but
knights, as bodyguards they can negate assassins, and they can easily swarm
any supercombatant. Ulm never had a problem expanding early. Now, once they
make contact, all they have to do is send the 15-20 summons towards the enemy.
NOTHING can stop them. You have ruined the game for Ulm's early victims. If
the Ulm player knows what he is doing, his neighbors stand no chance. Only
Mictlan with a fire bless and his doubled jaguar warriors will have a prayer.
Of course, he will be probably raping his own victims. Once again, you have
given a GREAT early expander a boost. Can you please explain to me what
enjoyment an Ulm neighbor will derive from this game, when he is faced with
twenty thugs on turn 6?

The black treant is scary early, but he will be unstoppable late. I guess
you did not understand what I meant. Defense means little when you are swarmed.
You gave him earth (protection, reinvigoration, magic res), death (soul vortex),
and nature (regeneration) With his high HPs, he becomes unkillable. Petrify
may kill him and will freeze him, but the soul vortex and invulnerability will
keep him alive. Oh, I know ways of hurting him, but he is just out of this
world. In Dominions treants DO NOT MOVE except through fairy trod! We have
Conjuration 8 unique summons which PALE compared to your turn 1 superhero.
EDN is just a scary combo.

I do not know Turin. He was not one of the top players in Dominion II when I
considered myself one (I won the first FFA tournament, resigned the solo
final against Norfleet when I became convinced that he had cheated, and had won
five 6+ player games in a row before I quit) I do not understand how he can
consider owerpowered a virtue-wanna-be that becomes obsolete at Conjuration 6,
and which needs support before Construction 4. As for insane stats, may I say
HUH? You gave humans attack 15/defense 17, and you left her at 14/14. You gave
the Arco hero 72 hps (elephant) and left him with human slots. You gave Ulm
summons such that three turns worth can shred her. You gave nearly everyone
else artifact level toys and multiple attacks, and left her with a flambeau.
You gave everyfrickingone magic resistance 16+ (usually 18). Her only strength
are her hps, and they are nothing to write home about.

Once again I will recap my problems with your mod. It is a fun way to add a
lot of flavor to single player, when you want an epic struggle against impossible
AIs. But in multiplayer, you have given two of the best early expanders a
great EARLY boost, and have given at least two nations a second pretender class
toy. Other nations have received thematic heroes that give flavor, but only
enhance existing strengths, for example, Marignon. If Tien Chi has been
toned down, I do not want to know what he used to be. And worst of all, many
heroes/summons have stats and items that make no sense in the world of Dominions.

[Tuidjy]

Ok, because I have nothing to do, I did the following. I started a game
with Ulm, and set the hero to summon. Every two turns, I would send a
smith with two turns worth of the summons out. In ten turns, I have
had 18 battles, AND NOT ONE OF THE FREAKING SUMMONS HAS DIED. In the
eighteenth battle, a smith and his eight thugs ran into a pretender -
Cyclops 9EA6N, and ate him for breakfast.

Screw this. I am asking for a restart.

----

Just because I like beating a dead horse, I took that game to the end.
It was played against 3 impossible AIs, on the Silent seas map. By
turn 24, all the enemy capitals are besieged, and the AIs cannot break
the siege. My masterful strategy has consisted of sending summons
on the straightest road to their capitals. A sample battle result:

Ulm - 1 smith (E+, legions of steel x2, cast), 28 black duke soldiers (3 dead)
Tien Chi - 11 commanders (1 dead), 274 troops (142 dead), 20 magic (20 dead)

The only lost battles were those in which the enemy got to my smith. I never
bothered to position anyone properly. Hell, who needs attention to detail when
one gets 4 thugs and a few knights for free every turn. I am not proud of
beating the AIs. I just wonder what a player could do better by the time the
thugs show up at his door. Oh, by the way, by turn 24, I have 4 castles, 7
temples, all pumping out smiths and Ulm infantries. My pretender was a rainbow
(2-3 everything). My gem income is 31, as she did not start searching until the
Summon Earthpower->Legions of steel combo was ready.

And please. I do not need to be told that stuff like mind burn can be available
early, or that area spells can hurt Ulm later on. This has alwasy been true.
I am arguing that fighting Ulm's thugs in the very early game is fruitless and
frustrating.

[Xietor]

I share your concern about Ulm. Turin also said the plate armor, without the enc and def negatives were too unbalancing.
Though chain mail of displacement is better, obviously you have to forge that at a gem cost.

In no way do i share your concern about any epic hero that is tough later in the game. you mention soul vortex and other spells for pangaea, a magically impaired research race(and i took 2 drain on top of the expensive research mages).

By the time the Treant has access to spells that make him into something truly feared, other races will be summoning queens ele air, kings fire etc.

Late in the game no sc whose strength is melee should be too much of a concern to a good player. regardless of mr, 3-4 astrologers casting paralyze, soul slay, horror mark will cripple any pretender, even a gorgon with petrification fears astral mages.

My goal with the mod was to provide tough, by worthy heroes standards, epic heroes. I am assuming you are aware of the worthy heroes that can appear at your gate(if you did not take mis 3) and how powerful they are compared to the heroes that come with the base game?

I would prefer not to restart, despite sharing your concerns about Ulm-to a degree. I was actually thinking of leaving their weapons and stats in place, but reducing slightly the summon to 3 per turn, while adding a small def penalty and some enc to the plate.

As pangaea, I do not fear being next to ulm, as those black order soldiers have no shield and i can mass produce longbows. While they hit insanely hard they can be trampled easily as they are only size 2. So races with ap missile weapons or longbows can hurt them with missile weapons, and races with tramplers can trample them. They are not unbeatable.

They go into ctis domain, they get diseased. etc.

In short, what i was likely going to do, based on turin's criticism(which you mirror) in 1.4, was reduce the summons in number to 3, like man's, increase their enc from 2 to 3, and increase the enc of the Duke Black Plate from 0 to 2, and add -2 def.

testing may require more tweaks to ulm(and other races), but that is the purpose of this game. But I had hoped to make the changes, and others, in 1.4. Please go look on my mod thread at the many changes already planned.

I understand you took 3 misfortune, and maybe you did not understand the significance of that choice with these mods, as it denies you some very powerful worthy heroes. And maybe you want to try Mictlan, since you think they are overpowered now(i do not).

In any event, a restart would allow me to introduce 1.4 which helps vanheim's hero tremendously. It would also allow me to change Tien chis pretender the way dr p wants it changed (and it is his design, so i am being as lenient as possible here).

I am not willing to nerf ulm, before i have matched his black order soldiers against a live opponent, more than outlined. If that is unacceptable to you, then i understand.

But since there appears to be a strong consensus that Ulm is overpowered, most particularly the black order solider,
I am willing to reduce the summons from 4 to 3, increase their enc by 3(1 to their stats, 2 to their armor), and lower their defense by 2.

Again, I had hoped to implement 1.4 AFTER a game has been played, so it might encompass stuff unforeseen by any of us,
but the fact is some of Vanheim's stuff really should be in this game, and it is hard to test Dr. P's hero if it is going to change radically anyway.

So as much as i would hate to restart again, are there any objections? I will implement the changes to Ulm, as well as the changes that can be viewed in the epic hero thread in the mod forum.

Ctis also gets some combat boosts and an extra slot, but loses assassinate/spy ability, and the croaker's melee ability is reduced a bit.

Probably the hero that receives the biggest boost in 1.4 will be shinuyama. I will scrap the treant's extra misc slot that i was going to give him and ctis since their is concern that treant is not killable late game-something i disagree with, but am willing to test.

If we do restart, anyone can chose a new race/pretender. If we restart, we will not do it again.

I had received a complaint about the angel not having "angel magic" from someone in this game not playing pythium, so despite my personal misgivings about boosting an already overpowered race(in my opinion), i will give Pythium's angel back her air magic, and we will see how it goes. With smite, fire, and air magic, and an army of hydras, surely pythium can find some way to defend itself from hostile neighbors.