Give me good reasons why R'lyeh is a balanced nation.

[LordArioch]

Actually I usually note too much shortbow archer use by the AI. It's his tendancy to aim at the front troops and have militia and other useless units in his army that usually defeats him.

[incognito]

Good points on R'yleh. Let's talk counter-counter strategies for a sec. Strikes me that using staff of storms becomes uniquely valuable vs human players to disable distance attacks. I think there is also a water based spell to prevent fire based magic use, something the illithids rarely use (unless you set your pretender up this way).

Are there other storm creating options besides the SOS? What good (and generally accessible) options are there for shutting down arrows? I like mass protection, but r'yleh seems unlikely to get nature 3 with appropriate numbers of casters to support anything more than a single army or two.

Also, what strategies do people have for the void? I have played multiple games with the R'yleh - most in early stages - and even with luck turned on have only managed to get some lower level stuff. I also have had several attacks on the starspawn (some victories, some deaths). One of my units got up to lvl6 summoning, but had nothing to show for the effort (got killed). Does swapping new starspawn priests in occasionally help? Also, what about starspawn mages? Are they better at summoning?

Thanks for the tips. This point-couter-point discussion highlights the depth of this game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by incognito:
Thanks for the tips. This point-couter-point discussion highlights the depth of this game.

Even more is the fact that no one ever gets a clear win. Ive dropped multiplayer games in the past because certain strategys became recognized killer-strategys and it boiled down to who could get there faster.

[Bowlingballhead]

As Void Monsters are among my favorite elements in the game, I will fill you in on them.

Priests summon much better than mages. They both seem to summon more stuff, and they are vastly less likely to get feebleminded. By the time one of them GETS feebleminded, you may well have the chalice or gift of health, and be able to heal him. Thus, the sky is the limit for their summoning ability, although eventually it 'maxes out' and all you get are greater othernesses. Which should not be knocked.

Cthugul the Stargazer apparently has a slightly smaller chance of getting feebleminded than a regular priest. Whether you want to devote him to summoning is up to you.

Two strategies to deal with the occasional (well, frequent) monster attacks. Give your priest a squad of tough units set to 'guard commander' (and give him a ring of warning, too, so you can have 10 bodyguards!). Or you can have him set to cast that recall spell first turn of combat. I haven't tried it, but I'm told it will get him away scot free, even from horrors (which attack fantastically rarely, but do attack). I think there's a ritual spell he has to cast outside of combat to 'prime' the recall spell, though.

[Taqwus]

Returning (Thaug 1) and Ritual of Returning (Ench 5) will help save your Starspawn. In one ridiculously long SP game where by the end I was mostly romping around with Master Enslave, I had only one Starspawn priest summoner for the entire game -- he had over 60 summoning skill (GoH and Chalice were used to facilitate feeblemind recovery).
Greater Othernesses are definitely helpful; they're an unbreakable, very robust front line that doesn't care whether the opposition is mindless or not.
Re: archers, in addition to storms (which will not shut down archery, only hurt base PREC -- bonuses due to levels or magic are not affected IIRC), you could also use decoy units to throw off targeting, and perhaps try to find a Raptor province or other supply of fliers. If you can find a good air mage, Arrow Fend would also be a useful spell to cast.

[incognito]

How often do vastnesses come along? ie ever gotten one? Also, at what summoning skill do you get access to tougher monsters?

My only encounters with void critters have been battles to the death. In both cases, I could have mindbLasted the guys, but one of them got the drop on me first. I have yet to be feebleminded (or at least I think so).

[Bowlingballhead]

Vastnesses are pretty rare (I usually get 1 per game), and truthfully, while they're good units, they're not quite as amazing as they tend to be made out to be. Greater Othernesses are much more common, and are pretty much as good.

I suggest starting out buying crab hybrids and shamblers as bodyguards, then replacing them when you start getting decent void monsters, or when you research those spells. That should keep your boy alive long enough to plump your army out with some mighty otherworldly backup.

[ February 05, 2004, 18:13: Message edited by: Bowlingballhead ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by incognito:
How often do vastnesses come along? ie ever gotten one? Also, at what summoning skill do you get access to tougher monsters?

I have gotten a Vastness with summoning 9. The most vastnesses I have had in a single game is 3.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
[QB] Vastnesses are pretty rare (I usually get 1 per game), and truthfully, while they're good units, they're not quite as amazing as they tend to be made out to be. Greater Othernesses are much more common, and are pretty much as good./QB]

Sorry to disagree, but the GO isn't even close to as good. The Vastness flies, has strategic move of 10 -- which makes for one hell of a SC that can zip around the map as a fire brigade if needed, or to single-handedly chomp on enemy rear-area provinces -- and much better attacks (and more of them, too). Anyone who thinks the GO is even in the same league as the Vastness hasn't been using a Vastness to its full potential, even as a non-SC.

There's a very good reason why the Vastness is a rare summon, and limited in how many you can get.

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Taqwus:

Protecting territory of decent size on land thus depends on independent units, which may have trouble dealing with the better nationals from other nations e.g. hoplites, Emerald Guard, massed xbows + Flaming Arrows et al.

I would say that a network of well placed labs helps R'lyeh quite a bit here. It might take the Spawns a couple turns to react, but when done, it's done in force.

The magical nature of their units also makes them highly vulnerable to non-astral leader-killing tactics, because without mages most of their units will rout or even dissolve, and many indy provinces can't produce mages even with a lab. Risky.

Not so much of a problem as you make it sound. Spending just 1 gold in province defense gives R'lyeh an Illithid Lord with magical leadership that can sustain an horde of mindless magical critters, even if all recruited commanders were to die (which is also unlikely IMO, the Starspawns are extremely resistant to both physical & magical assasination).

[ February 09, 2004, 10:01: Message edited by: Wendigo ]