patch 2.08 is out

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
The auto-die code is in there to ensure that no combat can get "stuck" for reasons involving Paralyze or other reasons not foreseen, and I for one don't particularly care whether or not it can be rationalized in game terms.

But why auto-die and not auto-rout? Why not just end the battle with both sides having "fled the field" so to speak? That's how every other TBS I can think of where this situation is possible handles it.

[PDF]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
I'm surprised that nobody has a fix-mod for the Utgard theme yet. I have been kinda out of contact since I am currently on vacation, but I'll fixe the Seithkona and put it in the bugfix mod later today, and post to indicate when it is done.

-Cherry

You can't change the Utgard theme. You can fix the Seithkona, but you can't fix the fact that they have a smouldercone AFAIK since you are unable to modify a theme, only the base nation.

I have a mod with fixed Seithkona, but either I am to dense to figure it out, or it isn't possible to just modify the Utgard theme.

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Are you sure ? I mean that the problem seems to lie with the Utgard Seithkona UNIT, that should have an ID and be moddable independently of whether it's used in a theme or not .
Or does the bug lies elsewhere - ie the unit is fine but stg screw it when it's used by Utgard Jotunheim ?

[Johan K]

Originally posted by josh_f:

I'm not sure I follow what your asking. I copied the files from the patch to the full dominions.app.

That sounds like the way to go. Could you do a
ls -l dominions2.app/Contents/Resources and a
ls -l dominions2.app/Contents/MacOS
and mail me the result to johan at illwinter.com.

[Tricon]

On a side note: was something done to the archery AI? Since the 2.08 patch the archers "let go" of their assigned targets as soon as they rout to attack enemy archers and/or rearmost enemy.

For the life of me I think they didn't use to do that with such persistance prior 2.08.
On the other hand, maybe I did not pay that much attention to archers/xbowmen prior to the Last few games.

Anyway, if this is new, I really, really like it. If it's been there - and I was just blind, well, I'm sory to steal your time, guys.

[SurvivalistMerc]

Graeme Dice,

Any unit capable of fighting back in any way currently, or which currently has defenders of any kind isn't "helpless." If the sphinx has astral magic and the knowledge to cast soul slay or paralyze itself...that doesn't even as a practical matter look helpless to me. Any unit that can't fight back either magically or physically is helpless if it has no one else to fight for it. Or does that not make sense?

If there is an astral mage capable of casting paralyze, they probably do have a month. How many additional castings of paralysis can occur during the 30-40 turns that it will take the sphinx to become unparalyzed? And how soon will the sphinx acquire such an affliction, like feebleminded, as to effectively be unable to fight back in any way? In almost all of these paralyzed victim situations, the astral mage remains on the battlefield.

I'm not sure if you understand what paralysis of the voluntary muscles will do. It will not keep a fist clenched unless we're discussing something that is principally animated by magic like a golem. So I do think I answered the question myself...but not in the way you'd like me to have answered it. Keeping a fist clenched requires muscle activity...not only that but it requires continued signals sent by the motor cortex and also by the spinal cord. Without these impulses, the hand relaxes and opens. I will concede that a hunk of rock or a golem wouldn't likely react similarly to paralysis.

NT Jedi,

You think that a charcoal shield would still be effective and count as equipped if a unit falls down on top of it and it faces the ground? Sure...he's touching the shield...but it doesn't appear to be equipped to me.

I'll concede that fire elementals and sphinxes probably don't "fall down." I should have been a bit more specific...voluntary muscle contraction, if such existed before, in the legs of the paralyzed creature ceases. This will cause most creatures to fall down.

Velk,

The astral mage is usually still around. Therefore, I do not need to make your assumption. Paralyze can be cast a large number of times during the 40 turns or so that a creature will be paralyzed. And odds are that it won't be resisted before it extends the paralysis another 40 turns or so....

In your hypothetical, I think the attacker should rout and go to an adjacent friendly province if such exists whereas the defender should stay put.
Both sides routed
Both sides can't move
Both sides not immobile
Turn limit expires

Zapmeister,

I think Velk is referring to situations in which both armies rout yet there are paralyzed units still on the field of battle. These units are unable to rout with the remainder of their armies when turn 50 happens.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
NT Jedi,

You think that a charcoal shield would still be effective and count as equipped if a unit falls down on top of it and it faces the ground? Sure...he's touching the shield...but it doesn't appear to be equipped to me.

Weapons do not fall off from paralyzation and neither do shields... thus the items are equipped during and after paralyzation. So even an immobile unit which has fell would still have the shield or weapon equipped. Otherwise an entire battle round would have been placed into the game for units recovering from paralyzation as they would need to equip their items again.
Why wouldn't the shield still be equipped... it's still wrapped on his arm and the unit is just lying on the ground??
If you've ever seen or used a shield before you'd see that simply falling down would not unequip most shields.

I'll concede that fire elementals and sphinxes probably don't "fall down." I should have been a bit more specific...voluntary muscle contraction, if such existed before, in the legs of the paralyzed creature ceases. This will cause most creatures to fall down.

What makes you think the paralyzation would cause units to fall down?? There are several different types of paralzation. A unit which has been magically paralyzed may become as stiff as a board. What happens to the skelleton commanders they don't use any muscles to begin with... why should they fall?? In many many games the effects of paralyzation does not cause the units to fall down. And with this game there are no settings or views or signs specifically indicating 'fallen unit'.

[ February 18, 2004, 15:05: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

Weapons and shields don't have to "fall off" to cease providing some of their benefits. Surely a shield is not benefitting you as a shield if you are lying on top of it. And if it's not benefitting you as a shield, perhaps its magical powers are also not operating.

Rather than requiring an entire battle round to re-equip items, why not just assume that this time is included and factored into the "duration" of the paralysis?

I have both seen and used shields. And there is not a single one that I think would be of much use to someone who has fallen down and can't move a muscle.

There is nothing in the paralyzation spell description to indicate that you "stiffen up" when paralyzed. In fact, such a "stiffened up" condition would not typically be called paralysis...at least not in English.

Why would you fall down? Because muscular activity...in the voluntary muscles...is required to keep standing.

Surely, given the nature of graphics in Dom 2, you will not conclude that the absence of graphics in which one is lying down is not dispositive on the issue. Graphics aren't exactly a forte of this game, and I don't even want to think about the time the poor devs would have to spend to create lying down graphics for all units. Surely you will concede that most non-magical units do sleep periodically, even though there are no lying down figurines on the overland map.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
{snip long post}

I think you've missed NT's point. The magical properties of the shield would still be operative regardless of whether the wearer cannot actually use the shield as a shield, so long as the shield is in contact with the wearer. So a commander that has literally fallen upon his shield would still get the magical benefits of the shield (fire auras, etc.)

You assert that unless the owner of the shield is awake and able to hold the shield properly that the shield's magics won't work. There is no basis for such an argument. The magics are "always-on". Whether permanently after forging, or turned on by some form of command, they'd remain "on" thereafter. Otherwise, by your logic, the wearer would have to keep concentrating on the shield's magic for it to work, which would make fighting or casting sort of impossible.

[Endoperez]

Petrification is an AoE paralyzation, isn't it? Statues stand even without muscular activity...

Anyway, this discussion has gotten little out of hand. Maybe you could move it away from the patch thread? It is interesting to follow, though, and atleast I would be interested to see how it ends (if it ends).

[licker]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
{snip long post}

I think you've missed NT's point. The magical properties of the shield would still be operative regardless of whether the wearer cannot actually use the shield as a shield, so long as the shield is in contact with the wearer. So a commander that has literally fallen upon his shield would still get the magical benefits of the shield (fire auras, etc.)

You assert that unless the owner of the shield is awake and able to hold the shield properly that the shield's magics won't work. There is no basis for such an argument. The magics are "always-on". Whether permanently after forging, or turned on by some form of command, they'd remain "on" thereafter. Otherwise, by your logic, the wearer would have to keep concentrating on the shield's magic for it to work, which would make fighting or casting sort of impossible.

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Heh, wow, this entire debate has moved to the realm of pointlessness...

Both sides have valid rationalizations for their take on this situation, neither will win any converts from the other, so drop it, move back to game mechanics and effects on gameplay and drop all the useless rationalizations, they are as pointless as they are meaningless in the context of tactical combat as modeled in Dom2.

It may be entertaining to continue your debate, but don't delude yourselves that it should have any bearing on changes (or lack thereof) in the tac model.