oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?

[raynor]

The only reason why most games have poor AIs is because they have features. GalCiv is looking to have no features, so of course good AI can be written for it.

I think it is funny that you brought in the chess angle. I was thinking of mentioning that myself.

You may be right. I will definitely miss designing my own ships and fighting tactical battles. On the other hand, it *does* look like Gal Civ might include just enough cool features to make the game a bit more appealing than chess.

If the AI presents enough of a challenge, Gal Civ may be the space game I play single player while SEIV is the game I play multiplayer.

[Master Belisarius]

I agree with the Fyron's argument too...
A challenging AI for a complex game is a lot more complex to create.

A feature that some beta testers (like me), suggested to Aaron, was to include some kind of language that we could use to "programm" the AI ourselves...
Can remember that "Stars! Supernova" was moving in that direction, and also their creators said that the AI had learning capabilities (God, really would liked to see this game in my HD!), and know that an underground game named "Solar Vengance" (http://www.silicmdr.com./solven.htm) have the feature to program the AI.

Really I would love to have a tool like this... and know that many people would be happy to create a more complex scripts to improve the AIs.

[Fyron]

If you have direct access to the AI routines, then it becomes possible to mod good AIs. But since we don't in most games, the AIs remain poor. That would indeed be a great feature for SE5.

[ March 10, 2003, 04:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[MythicalMino]

Originally posted by raynor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by klausD:
psycho freak.
every detail of your explanation is correct.

klaus

I'm not sure that is true. As a player you can add Manufacturing/Mining/Farming/Research/Govt/Recreation to a DEA. But you can *never* add facilities that enhance the facility or DEA. Examples include:
Hydroponic Farm
Soil Enrichment
Spaceport
Deep Core mining

---

There is a mod out now, that lets you build those buildings....i know first hand, cause i use it....

[MythicalMino]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
My feeling is that most of SE4 fans will totally/fully/completely hate MOO3.

So geo, save your bucks !

I am a fan of SE4....and i also really, REALLY like MOO3....with the mods that ppl have released, it fixes pretty much all the ppl's complaints...now, i know that a game shouldn't be fixed by mods...but still, I find MOO3 VERY good...

[raynor]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I agree with the Fyron's argument too...
A challenging AI for a complex game is a lot more complex to create.

This is a given. But you have to admit that there are some folks who bought SEIV thinking it was playable as the single player game. But it just isn't. All those features are great in multiplayer. But, as a single player game, SEIV has no features because it has no AI.

[raynor]

Thanks for the info on the MOO3 mods.

[klausD]

This is a given. But you have to admit that there are some folks who bought SEIV thinking it was playable as the single player game. But it just isn't. All those features are great in multiplayer. But, as a single player game, SEIV has no features because it has no AI.

IMO SEIV AI is not so bad. I mean which AI of a 4X game is really that good? Eg I hate all those AI cheats from MOO (triple amount of fleet points and money without even mentioning it in the manual) and CIV. (the same problem with all 3 Versions)

A problem of the AI of SEIV is the immense complexity of the game. The AI has not only to handle the myriard standard game options. It has also to handle all those additional mods. And for this it is quite good I think.
For SEV I would wish a more simple but more effective diplomacy model. This could help to make the AI even better.

tsch�ss
KlausD

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by raynor:
But you have to admit that there are some folks who bought SEIV thinking it was playable as the single player game. But it just isn't. All those features are great in multiplayer. But, as a single player game, SEIV has no features because it has no AI.

I dissagree 100% with your view that SE4 has no AI.

As I wrote many times here, I'm sure the AI still can be improved, right?

Also, I'm sure that the AI has problems playing in big galaxies, when have many potential places to attack/defend at the same time.
For example, is usual that the AI doesn't know what to do with a big fleet when need to defend 2 systems at the same time.
Usually the AI move the fleets in one direction, and at the next turn to the other direction... then in fact the fleet doesn't do anything!
And finally, I know that the AI doesn't care about many of the Diplomatic options, then, think that playing against the AI, SE4 is mostly a wargame, in the sense that the diplomatic options are less important (in MP is very different of course).

But, to say that SE4 has no AI... well, I'm 100% sure that you're wrong about it.

More than once, I wrote that playing in small galaxies against 3 or 4 TDM AIs (some of the good ones... and these races are mostly warlike) and high bonus (and with AI vs humans if I want more challenge), usually I LOST my games (even toda!).
Trying to be fair with myself, know that I'm not a bad SE4 player and I was playing the game from a long time... then, if still I can lose a game against the AI, think I have good reasons to say the AI is not so bad.

================================================== ====================
I think that the people who believe that SE4 has no AI, is the people that like to play epic games with BIG galaxies (sometimes with 255 systems, and most the time not playing AI vs humans).
================================================== ====================

Honestly would prefer that the SE4 AI could be more strong, or at least could cheat in the high levels like every 4x game (for example, in Moo and Moo2 was pretty obvious that the AI knew my unprotected planets to attack them). But can't to avoid recognize that SE4 has a very decent AI.

IMHO, a more than average AI if I compare this game with other 4x games

[raynor]

When you look at other space games, typically the AI is given less than a 100% bonus at the highest level of difficulty. (twice the production). In Space Empires IV, an easy game is played with that level of bonus. An average game is played with medium bonus. A hard game is played with high bonus (or 5x production.)

At that level, yes, I would agree it is extremely hard to beat the AI--especially in small galaxies.

But I would argue that the very definition of small, medium and high bonus is the strongest evidence of a poor AI.

Similarly, if the game has any AI at all, then it should win just as easily on a huge map as on a small map. Granted, it will take longer. The fact that you say that isn't so makes me think that its wins on smaller maps are more coincidence than anything else.

Let me hasten a couple of things. First, the TDM races are TONS better than the ones installed by default. I think it is a mistake to play the game without them. Second, the AI *is* getting better. I still remember when the AI built mostly research stations on a huge 150% mineral world.

But the AI never has and never will make effective use of half the cool features that are available to the human players in the multiplayer game. In that context, and if Gal Civ *does* turn out to have the AI they are promising, I may prefer a subset of features but an AI that uses all of them to an infinite array of features but an AI that can't use most of them.

[ March 11, 2003, 01:02: Message edited by: raynor ]