Question: Pen1 Arm4 @ 18 degrees

[Simicro]

Hi,

During combat resolutions, in the Status window, sometimes I can see a message that looks like:

Pen1 Arm4 @ 18 degrees

Can someone please explain what that means exactly?

I can only guess that Pen=Penetration? Arm=Armor?

I noticed that this message usually comes with the message "no effects".

[Aeraaa]

Pen=Amount of armor penetrated (in centimeters)
Arm= Target's armor

Since Pen 1=Arm then you'll either see some asterisks indicating that some kind of external damage has occured, or destruction.

[SaS TrooP]

Literally: A round with actual penetration of 1cm or armor hit it at 18 degrees (62 should be following math rules, but we all know what does it mean), and under that angle target armor was properly "multiplied" and had defence efficiency of 4cm. Round did not penetrate the armor, probably no damage held.


BTW, following this can I ask/suggest something game designers here?

[gingertanker]

To further the point made by SaS TrooP, penetration of sloped armor depends greatly on the angle at which the projectile "attacks". as you can see here:


When hit head on at a 90 degrees angle the T-55 has a mere 100mm of frontal armor, however its sloped armor can create a situation where it provides 200mm of protection. This is true not only of sloped armor but all armor, if rounds hit at strange angles they are deflected or must pass multiplied thickness of steel. This means that in combat both KE(kinetic energy) and CE(Chemical Energy)penetration differs greatly the figures given by manufacturers. What effects this, and is modeled quite well in SPMBT is the range, slope and shape of armor, height difference between shooter and target, and characteristics of the projectile.

The same AT-3 Sagger can be completely stopped by the frontal armor of a tank if it hits at a flat angle, or utterly penetrate and destroy the tank if it hits at a straight angle as it was designed to do.

So when you see "PenX Arm Y @ Z Degrees" you are actualyl given an explanation by WINSPMBT as to why a specific target was penetrated/not penetrated/partially penetrated.

[Mobhack]

And recall that in our games slope is the horizontal offset - its nothing to do with the vertical inbuilt slope of the tank, that is already factored into the basic armour value.

It's perfectly possible for a shot that's quite capable of penetrating the front armour of an AFV to miss slightly and hit the side armour at an acute angle. The "thinner" side value is then multiplied by a large slope factor and the shot skitters off.

Andy

[Aeraaa]

What's interesting is that tanks like IS3 or T10 have actually LESS armor if their frontal hull is hit at an angle (due to the pike nose losing their natural angle). ALthough it probably is impossible to model in the game due to needing to know each vehicle's exact design...

[DRG]

Yes please do try to remember that we have to abstract things like this. It's not, and never will be an EXACT representation of reality.

Don

[Simicro]

Hi all,

Thank your for your help. I think I got it.

One last question please:

PenX ArmY @ Zdegrees

What is the formula used to determine if the target:
a) has no damage
b) is damaged
c) is destroyed

Please note that I just want to understand.

I have no enough physics or military knowledge to question the realism. Besides I perfectly understand that the developers have to abstract things like this.

[Mobhack]

You are not allowed to "know" any of the game's formulae - as part of the agreement with SSI releasing the code to us.

In any case there are no "formulae" that can be written down in any simplistic set of shift tables for old fashioned tabletop or paper-shuffler warganes. The "formulae" are code in many different interlinked subroutines, which you would have to examine in toto.

Basically - if the penetration value shown is equal to or exceeds the defence value there is a chance of penetration. Over-penetration aids it, and so does larger warhead size. If penetrated then other functions are called to see what the shell does inside the vehicle, with WH size being a key component here...

Add in the many points where random choices are made - and there is no way you can say exactly what will happen when 2 bits of metal clang together. As in real life.

So - use your experience to judge whether a particular shot is worthwhile. Once you have a few hundred battles under your belt you will know if opening fire with Gun X against tank T at range R is worth your while - or not. (Use APCalc as a first approximation perhaps, but its only a guide and for 0 degree impacts).

Andy

[Simicro]

Oh I see for the agreement with SSI.

Anyway, I now understand how it basically works with the rules of thumb and advices you gave

Thanks!

Subject closed as far as I am concerned