obat46 Austria
 

Units 006/007/008/009 Kuerassier have 6 Smoke Dischargers.
Yes, they have 6 tubes, but how I understood the game, that doesn't mean they have 6 charges... :confused:
Right?

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Correct. It's how many smoke screens they can produce.

On the list


Don

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Hi!

I found one very minor thing with the Austrian Leopard 2 and Ulan.

They are listed in the game as using the MG74 as Coax-MG.

In fact they are using a belgian FN-machingun like the Leopard 2 tanks of the Netherlands.



Best Regards,
KAreil

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Fixed

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Hi!

First of all I know you guys are taking a break now and you really deserve it! :up:


When you come back, please consider following suggestions for missing stuff in the OOB:

1.) Austria does have dedicated paratroops - namely the Jägerbataillon 25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-djW6kuT1U

http://www.bmlv.at/sk/lask/brigaden/...on/jgb25.shtml

From what I found out so far they are organized like normal Jäger-troops (already in game) without the mortars I guess and paratroop unit class.




2.) Austria also does have dedicated mountain troops, Gebirgsjäger like Germany - e.g. Jägerbataillon 23, 24, 26.

http://www.bmlv.at/sk/lask/brigaden/jgbrig6/index.shtml

Again I would remove the at least the heavy mortars and switch the unit class.




For now I will just mess around with MobHack myself (thanks for the good documentation) but it would be nice to be in a future update done professionally.


Best Regards,
KAreil

Re: obat46 Austria
 

As I can't edit my post - I have to double-post:

Austria also has Hercules transport planes for the paratroops:
http://www.bmlv.gv.at/waffen/waf_herculesc130.shtml

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Hi @ all!

I did some more research and included my above suggestions in a modified OOB for Austria.

Additionally some new units and changes to old ones were done, changelog is in the quotes.

I'm glad for any comments, tips!

Is there anything special I've got to do to get this OOB into the next patch?

Re: obat46 Austria
 

There at most two ways to approach your changes to the Austrian OOB. You choose to modify the OOB, requiring interested parties to download it, or you could have changed the units using the Editor and/or Scenhack. Personally, I would have used the latter so as not to inconvenience players and really the OOBs serve as the Pick List for the AI primarily.

When you want to use a unit from a different country you can make that country an ally in the Editor and then make your purchase, and edit as needed in Scenhack or use the Editor.

Concerning formations, form them in the OOB above slot 900. If unit changes are required, make them in the Editor or the Scenhack after a purchase.

Thanks for the references as it appears you've done the research and I accept your personal experiences as a qualified source... big thanks for the effort.

I'll give it a drive and share my experience in the forum.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

I'll emphasize what shahdi said.

Unless you're essentially rebuilding the OOB (due to changes/corrections - this will require people to download your revised OOB) you're FAR better off just using the editor and changing whatever is needed on Default OOB units.

If you need specific formations for a scenario as shahadi said just create them in a modified alternative OOB (never EVER mess with the Default OOBs) using currently empty formations (as said it's best to put them in one place starting at 8-900 so you can find them easily). You can then buy those formations for your scenario, and it makes no difference what-so-ever to players as formations are only used when purchasing stuff (as a player or the AI) for a battle/scenario/campaign.

Keep in mind that weapons data and ammo loads (particularly for small arms) are in most cases "standardized" throughout the game so real world data may well differ. For instance; most 7.62mm "battle" rifles have a range of 10, any "assault" rifle (5.56mm for instance) has a range of 8.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

I'm moving the rest of my comments to Campaigns, Scenarios & Maps forum.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Thanks for all the input!

I agree, that for scenario design it is better to just use the unit editor.


My goal in fact is to update the OOB itself.

When I first found this game some years ago I was thrilled with the very well researched country databases. Even small countries liky my Austria were pretty well represented.

By now I noticed some differences from the game to the real world and I wanted to help updating the stock OOB for future patches.

I know that there's a development pause right now and that the next patch will take it's time, but still I hope my research (and prepared OOB) will be taken into account.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Guys, esp. KAreil, hold on...!

I've been AWOL for a while but am now back, getting the game running again with the latest patch. Some years back I've been working on a complete overhaul of the Austrian OOB together with some other users (Siddhi, Plasmakrab...).

I still have it and, spare time permitting, as soon as I got it running again on v8.0(R), I'll post it here and you can take a look at it and feel free to improve it!

You'll be delighted to see it is very detailed - we included Jagdkampf units (not to be confused with Jagdkommando, for those of you who take serious interest...) units, for example, airmobile JgB25, 'Garde', even 'Ehrengarde', of course mountain infantry, all kinds of bunkers and lots of other little things, pack horses and whatnot... :smirk: - it's definitely something for cold war lovers!

The only problem I reckon could be with the .lbms - I just copied them from my old version to the newest installation, so they're all there but as we included lots of new, nice authentic .lbms I'd have to look them up and include them with the patch... :hurt:

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Except of the added headache of the deep defense cuts, the Jagdpanzer Kürassier tank destroyers and the Saurer tracked armored vehicles were already on my work list for an end date change. And I had only basic information on what Hungary got out of this situation which I'll have to rebuild since my last computer crash. Hopefully these are somewhat in order...
http://geneva-globaldefence.blogspot...t-in-army.html
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...4661335199273/
http://www.thelocal.at/20141003/army...e-ranging-cuts
http://www.janes.com/article/44220/a...cuts-programme
http://www.janes.com/article/47661/u...e-cuts-package
http://www.bundesheer.at/english/dyn...el.php?id=4258
http://www.bundesheer.at/english/index.shtml

Regards,
Pat

Re: obat46 Austria
 

In Dec 2010 it's " Austria Plans Massive Cut in Army Equipment " and "The Jagdpanzer Kürassier tank destroyers and the Saurer tracked armored vehicles will all be retired and sold and scrapped"
and in October 2014 - it's " Austria's Minister of Defence and Sports Gerald Klug presented a wide-ranging restructuring package for the Armed Forces" and in Jan 2015 it's "Austria confirms defence cuts package"



and none of that offers any real details so if someone HAS real details let me know because all I would be doing now is guessing. They were talking about cuts for FOUR YEARS. Austrian Wiki says of the Kürassier---- "Currently, all tanks of this type are discarded" and I will be happy to end them 12/2014 .... IF THAT'S TRUE



So....... anyone have any HARD info so I don't have to guess ??



Don

Re: obat46 Austria
 

This shouldn't surprise to many after all, it's not like I haven't been down this road before...yup it just went to the Austrian MOD a few minutes ago. The best I can give you for now is mid-2012 to 2013 for the Jagdpanzer Kürassier and Saurer and the rest to be completed by 2017 as far as the force reductions are concerned. I'll post any feedback (or lack thereof) here. In the meantime since your "hitting it" Italy has stolen all the our plans for and have secretly been flying the F-35 since 2010!!!! I'll generate that list of dates and countries hopefully in the next couple of days. It won't be before 1/2019 if at all for the foreign buyers based on what we know and have recently posted on the U.S. dates in the Jet/Plane Thread. One or two have dropped out already and another Canada is thinking about doing the same as well. You might just want to "999" them until we get a better picture and that might be easier and quicker for you in the short term.

But again to Austria below is what I sent them.

Hello,
I was wondering have the defense cuts been instituted that were announced back in 2010? For instance when were the Jagdpanzer Kürassier tank destroyers and the Saurer tracked armored vehicles retired from active service? And did Hungary receive any of your weapons. I've included this as one of the sources used, http://www.janes.com/article/44220/a...cuts-programme plus others to include your own site. I'm trying to update the Austrian OOB for armored tactical game WinSPMBT and any help at least concerning the status of the Jagdpanzer Kürassier tank destroyers and the Saurer tracked armored vehicles would be deeply appreciated.

Regards,
Pat Conklin
USN/SS Ret.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

First Update:

Re: Anfrage abgesendet ueber bundesheer.at
Actions

Bürgerservice ([email protected])
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Patrick J. Conklin
[email protected]
Dear Mr. Conklin,

Thank yor for your e-mail. We have sent it to the responsible department for reply.

Best regards,
Bürgerservicestelle/BMLVS

Regards,
Pat

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Guys,

yes it's a fact that due to austerity measures there are several changes due - the Kuerassier has been decomissioned before though. So were several other systems, such as the JaPz Jaguar and the 20mm AA guns.

So far we know that the most important major weapon systems will 'only' be reduced in numbers, but they'll all remain available, e.g. Leopard 2A4, M109A5OE, Mistral, mortars, helos, 35mm Skyguard. The Ulan IFVs will of course remanin active as well. The Saurer SpZ are to be decommissioned, but are still there - not in an infantry carrier role though, just for supporting purposes. This role will be taken over by Iveco LMV and existing Dingo I and IIs.

Another thing that's always been in the OOB is the Pandur II - unfortunately it's never been ordered by Austria, and since the production facility over here is just being closed down, it's most unlikely it will ever be. Same thing goes for the GHN-45 gun howitzer - it was only tested and fielded for advertising purposes for export customers or so but it's always been in the OOB. In fact, other than 105s which were decommissioned back in the 1990s, we only had M-109s as artillery for a long time.

I don't think it's gonna be of any use to contact the MoD but there are several private websites available which could help - such as doppeladler.com or bundesheer-infoecke.at (?).

I'll post our OOB project as promised and you can take a look at it, unfortunately I'm at work this weekend... :doh:

Re: obat46 Austria
 

The Pandur II WAS in the OOB but it was removed this year for the reasons stated but IDK where you see the GHN-45 gun howitzer ........it's in the weapons list but it's not used by any unit and it's been like that for years

Re: obat46 Austria
 

ok Don, I was just speaking from my memory and have to get used to the latest version first, never mind, it used to be there in an older version. If it's gone like the Pandur II, fine, one thing less to do.

Unfortunately I am at work today and can't check this out myself...

Re: obat46 Austria
 

The GHN-45 was removed from the Austrian OOB sometime between 2005 and 2007 so getting close a decade it's been gone from the MBT OOB's

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Ok cool. I did a bit of searching and somewhere I found our old thread - not sure if this works but here's the link anyways:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=33704

here you can see we did some serious work on this to research... also lots of private messages and e-mails.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

I think the 2012 early 2013 dates for the retirement of the Jagdpanzer Kürassier tank destroyers and the Saurer APC are going to hold up though I'll wait on the Austrian MOD for the retirement dates since they're already ahead of the French in the "Response Dept.", "darn" French 105mm's!?!. The MOD's I dealt with so far (French, Australian, UK, Netherlands etc.) where they're information has helped us in the past on some OOB issues, I had forgotten that they like to stick their current equipment in the galleries so "hover" on the GALLERY tab top far right for that data. I don't see a "site last updated" date but, the last NEWS story was posted on 10/03/2014 so we know the equipment status is good from that point on. As SIPRI data won't get updated for 2014 I think until March I'll hold off on any military equipment sales and or donations made by Austria to Hungry especially where it pertains to the LEOPARD 2A4 as I believe this would constitute a major upgrade in tank capability for Hungry as many sources indicate supposedly has occurred. I'd rather do any work there all at once instead of by piecemeal. So again...
http://www.bundesheer.at/english/index.shtml

This might not be a wasted exercise as it might flush out other equipment issues in the major categories of Armor, Artillery, Aircraft and Helos that exist for current equipment beyond the above stated dates.

Regards,
Pat

Re: obat46 Austria
 

The next question is..... they are retiring the Saurer APC..... fine, makes sense with the newer Ulans doing the same job but will they be retaining or retiring the Saurer SP mortars, FO vehicles, ammo carriers etc.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

If MOD gets me a final answer, and if they respond like Australia did for us about 3yrs. ago on the M1A1 and unit issues we were addressing, that's the type of answer I hope we'll get from Austria. I'm almost against the wall on this matter partly due to time constraints at my end. Starting mid-week I need to start on a "point paper" concerning an issue at work for our site manager. Doing the best I can.

Regards,
Pat

Re: obat46 Austria
 

NO PROBLEM... if they send the answer great. if not don't sweat it.

EDIT_If I had to guess ( and sometimes that what we have to do....) I would guess they will pull the APC version OOS but keep the specialized versions in service awhile longer using some of the APC's for spare parts

Re: obat46 Austria
 

I have mentioned in the past a couple of times that..."The only dumb question is the question not asked.!", in the Submarine community you learned that the very first day you started Submarine School in Groton, CT. and as long as you served onboard those boats it would be continually reenforced. Your life and those of your crew could depend upon it. In context by not asking you might not get to the answer you seek and the worst case is they say "No" or just don't respond like the French MOD on their 105mm situation. I'll gladly except the latter over not asking the question at all-some might remember my MRAP situation when I first started posting which I caused many to get a headache. So for "Yea of little faith" from the Austrian MOD...

([email protected])
Add to contacts
2/04/15
[Keep this message at the top of your inbox]
To: Me
Cc: [email protected]
[email protected]

Dear Sir!

Regarding your request I would like to inform you, that the Jagdpanzer KÜRASSIER was taken out from active service in 2010 an the Schützenpanzer SAURER in 2012 - 2013. AAF don´t use these tanks (APC) any more.
HUNGARY did not receive any material from the AAF.

If you have further questions, don´t hesitate to contact me again

Daniel PREGL, Bgdr
Amt für Rüstung & Beschaffung /Zentrale Dienste
Armament&Procurement Agency/Central Services
1010 WIEN, Franz Josefs Kai 7-9
Phone +43 50201 10 23062
Mobile +43 664 622 2070
[email protected]

Don,
If I may suggest for the KURASSIER a 12/10 end date, and SAURER a 12/13 end to keep it simple, though 6/13 might work for the SAURER.

Regards,
Pat

Hey look what it says below...;)

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Thanks Pat. The change will be made now

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Pandur ist getting an RWS:
http://www.bundesheer.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=7632

The first converted vehicles entered service earlier this month, and are scheduled to be deployed to Kosovo in August.
Barring unforeseen delays (or budget issues, for that matter), the entire Pandur fleet should be refitted by the end of 2017.

The weapon station appears to be the same as that used on the Iveco LMV, so the weapon is still a 12.7mm MG; but it gains a laser rangefinder and thermal imaging.
Plus the ability to fire while buttoned up, of course - that's the main point, after all.


Meanwhile, RUAG was commissioned to up-armor the vehicles:
http://www.ruag.com/fileadmin/ruag/i...chutz_2015.pdf
The timeframe seems to vague to add uparmored Pandurs into the OOBs just yet, though.


Both via Doppeladler:
http://www.doppeladler.com/da/oebh/v...dur-im-zulauf/
http://www.doppeladler.com/da/oebh/ruag-panzert-pandur/

Re: obat46 Austria
 

While not a bubblehead, as both Military Police and Intel Analyst
my life revolved around asking questions.
I very much believe, "The only dumb question is the one not asked".

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Did anything become of this project?

Re: obat46 Austria
 

If referring to Post #26, Don I believe on his next post took care of that. If your talking about AMX's Post #28, I had the following myself to include the HUSAR will post here everything I'm tracking for Austria...

PANDUR 1
http://www.janes.com/article/50032/a...-pandur-i-apcs
http://www.armyrecognition.com/march...n_station.html
/http://www.forecastinternational.com/news/index.cfm?l3=30109&recno=231096
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...eled-apcs.html

HUSAR:
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec.../4001443724482

This was all I had and I haven't seen anything else that would fall into this category or any of the other ones I use. Was thinking JUNE 2015 start for at least the PANDUR 1 to allow for enough units to be fielded with the new RWS.

Regards,
Pat

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Proposed changes and additions to Austrian OOB, including updated Iveco LMV "Husar", new Pandur version and mountain infantry.

Adapted OOB attached and detailed changelog in quotes:

Re: obat46 Austria
 

I will look into this in October we we start game work again

Thanks

Don

Re: obat46 Austria
 

New Unit(s)

1.) Another "Turret Casemate" for you to add to the Austrian OBAT; a Charioteer turret inside a casemated bunker at Bunkermuseum Wurzenpass Austria.

2+3.) Two more "Tank Forts" to go with UNIT 181 Centurion Fort:

M47 and T-34/85 turrets installed on concrete pads at the Bunkermuseum Wurzenpass Austria.

Tank Turret Fortifications By Neil Short says:

56~ Charioteer Turrets were installed on concrete shelters or in casemates. Initially they were armed with the original 83.4mm gun, but some were later rearmed with the 105mm Panzerkanone M68.

T-34/85: 26~ tanks were acquired by the Army and served until the early 1960s, when they were withdrawn and given to the Sperrtruppe (Barricade Force) of the Austrian Army; and several were put in as fixed forts along the border with Austria. Apparently the preferred method of bunkerizing the T-34/85 was to simply bury the entire hull in the ground instead of simply mounting the turret on a concrete pedestal.

M-47: 147 x M47 turrets were installed as fixed fortifications. At least one (near Fort Nauders) had applique armor installed for more protection. All deactivated by 1998.

Centurion (Existing UNIT 181): The bulk of Austria's remaining centurion fleet was turret forted for about a decade -- 1990-2000~ before being removed from service.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Here's an operational M47 Turret picture for LBM use -- if you google "Feste Anlage", you get some good stuff.

And a "cleverly" disguised centurion (I think) turret inside a fake house. I Have no idea how you'd represent this; but... still cool.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

According to the Austrian Army's page:

http://www.bundesheer.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=3655

This is a T-34/85 being pulled out of it's casemated bunker shelter for restoration. Thickness of the bunker wall(s) was 60 cm of concrete.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Some more research has uncovered some more Austrian Bunkerized stuff:

75mm FAn M-24 with PzK L40 (from M-24 Chaffees)

24 x 15.5 cm FAn SFK M2 Long Tom (Pic Attached).

60 x 4 cm FAn FLAK 55-57 Bofors specifically along the Danube river in fixed positions to kill anything on the river. All removed 1998. (Pic of a 4 cm bunker from the inside).

24 x 10.5 cm FAn LFH 18/40 (see attached pic)

7.5cm rückstoßfreie Panzerabwehrkanone M20 -- apparently installed in special 100mm thick cupolas with an opening at the rear for use of the recoilless system.

7.62cm FAn PAK M42

Charioteer Panzerturme 105mm Upgrade: In addition to receiving the 105mm M68 gun, they also received 300 to 400mm of add-on armor.

7.62mm FAn MG-42: In enclosed armored dome.

12.7mm FAn Browning: In enclosed armored dome.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Proposed changes to Austrian OOB, Austria is changing it's artillery organization.

Adapted OOB attached and detailed changelog in quotes:

Re: obat46 Austria
 

OK thanks, I'll look into this when we start OOB work again

Don

Re: obat46 Austria
 

More proposed changes, Austria is introducing (swedish) Haegglund snow vehicles for it's mountain troops by 2018.

The changelog and attached file include them and the changes proposed in January 2017.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Does this second one also include the changes you made earlier ?

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Yep. It includes the changes from January 2017. All older changes are already part of the last official update.

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Thanks for putting my additions into the game.

Besides the Haegglunds and Dingo-2 I managed to transfer from other OOBs into the Austrian one there as another addition:

http://www.bundesheer.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=9500


Some new "Pandur Evo" are ordered, from what I could find out the main change in game-terms would be the additional protection.

Can someone help me with finding out how to determine which armor values to change? How much to increase the cost?

Re: obat46 Austria
 

The game's cost calculator determines cost. It's not a manually entered item. When I add this it will go into the slot that was used by the "Pandur II"....there does not appear to be an increase in armour beyond making it more mine safe so it will be survival 7

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Small addition to Austrian Infantry weapons I somehow missed the last 6 years... :doh:

Re: obat46 Austria
 

Got it. Thanks.