what do you think of the racial techs?
 

okay, this topic has been bantered about before, but lets break it down tech by tech. i have been getting frustrated with them lately, and here is how I see their value:

Temporal: i used to like it for the increased production, but you get faster production out of organic tech, and the temporal weapons are good, but not as nice as some of the standard weapons or as some of the organic weapons. the facilities are the best thing about it, but are mostly usefull for a defensive play style when you have a long time to establish your empire

organic: fast production, good weapons, the best population reproduction in the game (especially good for making small portions of alien population multiply quickly) and the best armor.

crystal: an organic killer. weapons are not the best, but you really put those organic player in check with the crystal shards. also, the resource facilities are (only) good in an ancient-game. other than those two things, this tech has no use.

psych: A-subverters are great for abusing the AI, or even human players that you meet late in the game and catch with their pants down if they are not aware that there is a psychic player out there. the training facilities are nice, but not worth the cost of the trait. the other psych weapons are nowhere near as good as standard weapons.

religious: good as a counterpart to another trait, the talisman is handy as an addition to some of the other racial trait superweapons, or even with just standard weapons. the facilities are usefull since they are cheaper than their standard counterparts, but will eventually be obsolete as research progresses. this is a nice utilitarian tech tree.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I agree with all of your points except the one about crystalline being an organic killer. Sure, if the organic player doesn't alter their ships any, then he'll lose. But all it takes is 2 or 3 levels in shields, which can be gotten fairly quickly, to nullify the crystalline weapons. They do an infintesimal amount of damage.

Organic manipulaiton is way too powerful when compared to the other racial techs.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

i think organic arn't too cheap. You can check them pretty quick in the start with crystalline and later on their weapons arn't that amazing. I mean think about, you could spend that 1500 points on some improvements in the normal bonus area. Think about no maintnence? or how about really great construction without temporal? or reproduction. Religous is also really great if only for hte talisman. Think about it. Your ship will always hit the enemies, how sick is that? And now about something else for one of the underpowered racial abilites? a great ECM? There's my $.02

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

"or even human players that you meet late in the game and catch with their pants down if they are not aware that there is a psychic player out there."

Two words: computer virus.

Phoenix-D

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

If you get a few levels in shields, then you have nothing to fear from crystalline races. Yes, the organic weapons are underpowered in the later tech tree, but so what? Organic races are designed for the over-whelming horde strategy. They are supposed to destroy your enemies before the late game. And if each individual weapon is outclassed, big deal. You can always build more ships than your enemies. I always take at least 15% maintenance reduction, which allows me to support all those extra ships that I build.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Two words: computer virus.<hr></blockquote>

If you survive that long or you start with max tech, talisman + virus + subverter is THE killer combination in the game.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
If you get a few levels in shields, then you have nothing to fear from crystalline races.<hr></blockquote>

If you have a shield depleter as first weapon and the shard cannon as secondary weapon you might change your mind.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I do not consider the racial technologies as powerful as some people say.
My most favorite one is the Organic one (no, i do not choose it for its super duper power. i just like the style) and its counterpart, the Crystallurgy tech - their combination of Shard Cannon and the Ray Gun (forgot the name) is pretty nice, especially when coupled with shield depleters and such.

Talking about their uses, and the preferability of other advancements, i can say that i see only 2 uses for those technologies - either newbie fun or some expert player using them to futher improve his/her strategies.
In my Last race, the TechnoLogic i Banned every single advanced trait from my settings.txt , and belive me, the construction, production, combat bonuses are much better than everything a decent racial tech could bring.

Once again the choice goes by the personality and style of the player.

Side note - In My Opinion every person that uses two racial technologies is just lame (no offense) and doesnt know what is "play for fun".
See, combine two technologies like the Organic and the Crystalline, and see your enemies burn in the parasites and crystal shards. where's the fun?

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I have something to add - though many people call the current racial technologies quite unbalanced i say it all should be left as it is (i mean in the normal game) because i see that most of the races have one-two useful things, putting it into almost a balance.

Say, the Lighting Ray in Organic Tech Tree is quite the best direct-fire weapon, while the High-Energy Magnifier (recalled the name) is even more powerful than the WMG, which is considered to pack the most punch.
While WMG does 140 damage at range of 8 with rate of 3, the HEM does 110 damage at range of 7 with the rate of 2!!
The Lighting Ray is small and cheap and also the best small weapon i've ever seen for both fighters and troops (same punch, less space, better range).
Also HEM is significantly cheaper than the WMG and puts the another high-damage weapon, the Torpedoes into uselessness.

So here we get almost an balance, i think.
Temporary races get different bonuses aswell, when the Time Burst and Temporal Shifter are nice couple, and tachyon cannon is just nice.
Psychic race get the very best small cannon - Small telekinetic Projector, plus the Mental Flailer and Alliegance Subverter are nice things and Mental Singulatiry Generator packs the best damage at one shot.

Talisman is overpowered indeed, but it adds the religious race what is requied to balance it.

Psychic scanner is cool. so are the enchanced trainings.
Religious are pretty good in defensive style with their shrines, and the temporal space yard & predictor are cool

After all it seems balanced and doesnt need tweaking in the original game. Maybe some new techs, but nothing more.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I'd have to second that temporal tech is meant for late-game. It's quite expensive to research too.

But consider the shield-depletion power of their weapons, it doesn't beat shield-depleters in power, but at least it has a use afterwards.
And their other weapons are as dangerous as warp weapons if not a tad more powerfull (if I recall correctly).

It's just a pity it has little use early game where speed matters, but that fits with the idea of the tech.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Side note - In My Opinion every person that uses two racial technologies is just lame (no offense) and doesnt know what is "play for fun".<hr></blockquote>How would you describe an empire that uses ALL 5 racial techs at once? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Fun != Optimal Race Choice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TLogic:
...and see your enemies burn in the parasites and crystal shards. where's the fun?<hr></blockquote>

You just said it. THAT'S the fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
How would you describe an empire that uses ALL 5 racial techs at once? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
<hr></blockquote>

Scary.

I dunno... till very recently I was high on Psychic tech. Lately, though, I've been questioning the value of ANY racial tech, particularly in small games. Sure, you eventually get some neat toys, but at what cost? Besides the upfront racial point cost, there's the high research cost to reckon with. And that's just to be able to research the neat toys.... It just seems to me that while I've throwing all these research points to develop my racial techs, the 'normal' races are developing gobs and gobs of standard techs that happen to be better than what I've got. Just my observations, really, and actually doesn't answer the original question, so I'll just hush up now....

Quikngruvn

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Quikngruvn ]</p>

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I like the Racial techs.

They really come into play in the long running games.

That is where I think Organic has the advantage due to the Replicant centres.

Temporal has the advantage once you get there ship yards.

It should be the first thing you build on every planet with more than one slot. I will speed up the construction of everything.

Crystal for porkers.

Religion and Psychic are equal

But combining the different traits is what really brings out the strenghts in the techs.

Religion and Crystal for defence.

Temporal and Organic for offence.

Psy and Religion for just scaring people.

And all the other combinations.

I really enjoy figuring out how to counter other pbem players combinations in the 3000 or 5000 point games.

So when you ask what do I think of the racial techs???

I like them.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you have a shield depleter as first weapon and the shard cannon as secondary weapon you might change your mind. <hr></blockquote>

No, I won't change my mind. What difference does that make If I am an organic race using shields on my ships than if I am a standard race using shields? And if you use up space for shield depleters, then you'll be able to do even less physical damage. Meanwhile, with my organic weapons, I can build 20-30% more ships than you, thereby overwhelming the under-powered crystalline weapons.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I dare say crystalline armor rules. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I dare disagree and say that organic armor is hella better, especially in the early game unless there is a cyrstalline player. Sure channeling 15+ points of damage into sheilds is great but what happens when i kill your armor, it dies, mine regenerates (especially with 10-12 components per base ship). The best is actually the bio-crystial armor from P&N, but hey if its not a P&N game just go with organic, ask IF.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
How would you describe an empire that uses ALL 5 racial techs at once? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Fun != Optimal Race Choice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr></blockquote>

Probably I would call it a doomed race in a low starting tech game!
At least my experience with two racial technologies showed me that these races are so weak in the early game that they usually don't survive to harvest the fruits of their racial technologies.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Probably I would call it a doomed race in a low starting tech game!
At least my experience with two racial technologies showed me that these races are so weak in the early game that they usually don't survive to harvest the fruits of their racial technologies. <hr></blockquote>Against AIs you get a pure military challenge, not insurmountable.
Against Humans, you've gotta sell your advantages:
"I'll give you 5,000 KT of ships, any design you like (incl. racial techs A, B & C), if you give me the non-racial techs required"
Sure, you may not have a good chance of winning, but that's not the point. Your gifted ships can influence the balance of power in the galaxy.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

Crystalline Armor 3 has 1 to 5 armor ratio (30 vs 150 damage taken) and a 30 damage reduction per hit per armor (15 channeled away, and 15 for shield hitpoints) for 70 minerals and 70 radioactives.

Organic Armor 3 has the same ratio and size for the cost of 130 organics, and it regenerates 30 hitpoints per turn per armor.
Also it heals ships up after combat.

So what does it come down to? Enemy tactics. If I was fighting an enemy with organic armor, I'd make sure I'd focus all firepower or as much as possible on a single ship at a time, that's when the regeneration of OA doesn't do squat.

Question: will the enemy do that? Because if he does Crystalline armor would be better in that case.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Against AIs you get a pure military challenge, not insurmountable.
Against Humans, you've gotta sell your advantages:
"I'll give you 5,000 KT of ships, any design you like (incl. racial techs A, B & C), if you give me the non-racial techs required"
Sure, you may not have a good chance of winning, but that's not the point. Your gifted ships can influence the balance of power in the galaxy.<hr></blockquote>

SJ you have first to do the research to get this advantages! And for several racial technologies this will take a long time, in which your empire is quite vulnerable. Don't forget that you used all your racial points too for this while other races may have used them for quicker research, lower maintenance, better space combat and so on.
In a low starting technology game with hostile races nearby this may be fatal.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

Against AIs that is not a concern.
Don't play against humans, play with humans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Unless you have a bad reputation, you have a lot to offer to the players next to you. (Who wants a crystalline-armor-invulnerable starbase with Alliegiance subverters and a talisman? Just be my friend.)
It dosen't take long to get racialtech worth selling, and you'll be getting normal tech from your trading partners... those who ally with you can essentially change racial traits at will by trading ships.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I have to agree with SJ.
One of the current games I am playing on PBW. I went for three racial techs just to see if it would be possible to survive. There are about 20 players in the game.
I have an agreement with one player for basic tech for special ships. Two other players that have racial techs I have agreements with for researching.
The net effect so far has been Two RTs maxed out and a third 3/4s of the way there. My only research has been in one RT. Yet my race is one of the most advanced in the game even with basic techs.
All it took was some major Rping and Diplomacy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I like the racial traits/Tech as well, how about we all design a trait for an AI race, but where no Human would have access to it. Create the ultimate racial trait/Tech for AI player only??? Sort of a Super Villian Race. I know there are tough ones in the mods but how about making one where only the AI player can have the traits/Tech??

just some ideas mac

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: mac5732 ]</p>

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

mac, I really do like that idea and wish I knew something about modding so that I could contribute

TIA my inexperience with this game, I prefer not to play with any racial traits (I only pick 2 advanced traits which I am not telling cos Gryphin may read this) - I prefer the AI to have the racial traits cos (a) it makes them a little more weird (b) it may give them an advantage (especially the Allegiance subverter thingummywhatsit) and (c) as I play the humans, just makes me a little more neutral and them a little more 'alien'

the more racial traits we have the better as far as I can see

just some ideas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
I like the racial traits/Tech as well, how about we all design a trait for an AI race, but where no Human would have access to it. Create the ultimate racial trait/Tech for AI player only??? Sort of a Super Villian Race. I know there are tough ones in the mods but how about making one where only the AI player can have the traits/Tech??[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: mac5732 ]<hr></blockquote>
It wouldn't be hard to do, as long as the players agreed not to take it. There isn't anyway to prevent them other than the honor system.

I started to do it once, but then I noticed I was gettting my butt kicked quite nicely by using the TDM modpack and giving the AI high bonus. At that point I figured it wasn't really needed. But if you have conquered them, it would be very easy to add in as a mod.

Geoschmo

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

IMO that's how races like Crysslonite and Xi'Chung, or even Xiati are supposed to be. Scary (through their tech) and ruthless.

Mebbe on basis of what's said in this post we should collectively lower racial tech cost 500 points, with the exception of organic-tech?

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Mebbe on basis of what's said in this post we should collectively lower racial tech cost 500 points, with the exception of organic-tech? <hr></blockquote>I went the other way with P&N: I reduced OA regen rate, so that the OA only gets a maximum of 20 HP/KT, rather than the current 35HP/KT.
In the same way, we should increase the cost of maintenance reduction.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

"(I only pick 2 advanced traits which I am not telling cos Gryphin may read this)"

You do realize that as soon as he meets you he can see ALL your advanced traits, right?

Phoenix-D

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
[QB]You do realize that as soon as he meets you he can see ALL your advanced traits, right?[QB]<hr></blockquote>

er!!! yes, even I knew that right away, but it is that crucial first meeting on which I might surprise old Sir Bonzo

If I were you, I would keep on trying to visualise the 'circling the wagons' image, we are - it is keeping us going - the property consultant has come up with such a corking solution that I think one of my colleagues has gone off to be sick

brilliant

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

Uh, I'll abstain from figuring any other images. The first one was bad enough.

There isn't really a way to make a trait AI only, though in a MP game the gamemaster could kick anyone who took it. I had an idea for one- instead of the neutrals being single-system parinoid pushovers, how about *old* races that just don't bother going galavanting around any more? Of course, they didn't Last that long by accident..

Phoenix-D

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I really like Crystall tech. 8-9 crystall armour on ship makes it immune to seekers ! Nasty surprise for organic ships loaded with seeking parasites. Nobody so far mentioned Energy Transmition Lens. 60 shield points do not look much since ships routinely have hundreds if not thousands shield points. However, ETS works on fighters as well. The only problem that it adds 60 not to each individual fighter but to the whole stack. Stack of 20 will get just 3 points per fighter. So usually I make special "decoy" fighters launched in group of 1 and actual attack fighters in big Groups. Each decoy fighter usually have 2 shields and with help of ETS soak up 4 PDC-5 shots ! While killer group can approach without loses and wrek havoc. It is not easy to make it work in strategic combat but the effect is devastating.

Oleg.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I always hated that. When you meet a race you know what they have. That should be 'turnoffable'.

Now I know that some say the word turnoffable is used far too much these days http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif but as soon as I meet someone I check out there race and I can instantly figure out there strenghts and weeknesses and develop a strag. to counter them.

I would like it if you could only see their history and that's it and if you wanted more info you would have to become allies or use your spies to learn info.

And it would be nice if the spies gave false info from time to time.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I might be wrong or just don't remeber correctly, but in SJ's P&N, I thought, and I might be mistaken, that the AI could not take the pirate race in the game. IF this is true, then, and I'm not a modder/programer, why couldn't this be done in reverse?

I also agree that seeing the traits of races needs to be looked at. I like the idea that the information would not always be correct but could be inflated both stronger or weaker then what the race actually is, To see their true strength you would have to have a partnership or at least a Military Alliance.

However, in a current Hot Seat game I'm playing, I have met one of my human opponets, have trade and research alliance with him, but when I clik on his stats, all I get is a blank screen. All the other screens are filled in. This has happened before in SP I've had, It Last for quite a long time and then the stats just show up all of a sudden. Version 1.49 and 1.35.

just some ideas mac

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

I am talking about when you go to the Race screen and you right click on them and you can see what atmosphere, planet type, culture, advance tech. etc....

Too much info on that screen.

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

P&N AIs could not take the pirate or nomad traits because they were not designed to take the trait.
They were not designed to pick the trait because the SE4 AI does not understand how to make money without a planet.

It is possible to make an AI that chooses pirate, but it will act even more like a neutral than a normal neutral (confined to one planet,not one starsystem)

Re: what do you think of the racial techs?
 

oops, I made a mistake in my older post. No amount of crystalline armour can fully protect against missiles. The reason is that missiles stack just like fighters do: when stack of 5 CSM-5 hits ship, it is treated as a single 5*120=600 hit, not as 5 separate hits of 120. Thus, even though 8 crystal armor III gives complete protection from any hit less than 150, stack of missiles can punch through. Sorry for my previous erroneous post.

Oleg.