Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

I ran into a bit of a problem trying to model the Polish 10th Motorized Brigade. There's little hard data on the actual makeup of the infantry component but if I try to use the 19 man squad infantry from the OOB, the medium trucks only carry 18. Only other option is using the dismounted cavalry, which may make some sense but the tiny 4 man squads are very fragile. For now I'm going to mobhack the medium trucks to 119 carry capacity but I wonder if the motorized infantry units wouldn't have looked alot more like this? Of course without the bicycles, which would give 12 or 13 man squad sizes depending on how you interpret the data.

If added in, the motorized infantry formations should I think be elite formations just as the cavalry. It might be easier/better to add them in without organic transport so that decision is left up to the user. Also it would be nice if the HMGs would be made available as singles or perhaps doubles rather than just triples, although that's getting a bit nitpicky :D

I'm open to suggestions if anyone has better data or ideas, thanks :)

Brian

PS: Had some time on my hands and dipped into the OOB editor, updated the polish oob with early medium trucks having 119 carry capacity, also added proposed motorized units and formations, fixed (I think) a few things the database check utility complained about (bad nation values). Result is attached in zip format.

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Had the wrong mg, changed it to the wz.30. Also, since there is some disagreement as to the number of LMGs, added two more units so that unit class could be used to select 2 or 4 LMGs per platoon. The units added are 800 thru 805, and formations added are 500 thru 502. Both ranges were blank in the stock OOB so shouldn't cause any problems.

With the lack of hard data, did a bit of number crunching on the LMGs. The standard rifle platoon has 1 LMG (1 per 60 men roughly). The cavalry platoon has 1 LMG (1 per 30 men roughly). The bicycle platoon (per Niehorster's data) has either 2 LMGs or 4 LMGs which would give either (again rough numbers) 1 per 30 men or 1 per 15 men; the first proportion 'sounds' more correct or at least in line with other units. The 10th motorized drew from both mounted rifle and lancer regiments further complicating the picture. It would seem reasonable that despite their ancestory the two motorized infantry regiments in the 10th would share a common structure and TOE.

Updated modified oob attached.

Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

There's a 6-man (I think) bicycle cavalry squad for the Polish OOB. I actually used it for the infantry in a motorized brigade during a Let's Play on another forum. The way I had my brigade set up, it came out to *exactly* 200 units. I'll see if I still have that ORBAT lying around somewhere.

A common joke on that forum is that my brigade must have stolen every bicycle in Poland.

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Since the time of the original post, the latest update (4.5) increased the carry capacity of Poland's medium trucks to allow the transport of the 19 man infantry squads. This simplifies the modeling task tremendously.

The original problem remains though, primary source details for the 10th Motorized (Calvary) Brigade are scarce and after 71 years, more are not likely to surface. Second hand information from various Polish sources have shed some light on bits and pieces, the number of LMGs (42) and ATRs (12) per squadron for example along with additional information about the makeup of the AAA platoons (1x 40mm + 2x AAMGs each) and the infantry component of the recon squadron (almost exactly as the dismounted cavalry in the current OOB with, of course, the addition of vehicles).

The detailed TOE at platoon level for the motorized calvary squadrons of the Polish motorized brigades however is non-existant. One is left with a puzzle of numbers, numbers which don't add up if you assume either rifle platoon or saber cavalry troop TOEs. Numerically the 16th Calvary regiment's bicycle company (4x 12-13 man squads) is the best fit out of the available primary source information. After nearly ten years of on-again-off-again amateur sleuthing in this matter I've pretty much given up hope of finding anything more substantial.

As the winSPWWII OOBs stand now, for scenario designs I've been using a modified dismounted calvary troop as the basis, changing three of the squads to rifle squads with BARs and one squad to an ATR team. The numbers are, of course, still too heavy, but it seems to work well enough to capture the flavor of the 10th Motorized.

I should note that I'm really interested only in modeling a slice of the 10th Brigade centered around one of the motorized cavalry squadrons as I have little interest in battles, campaigns, or scenarios with more than 50 to 75 units per side.

Thanks,
Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

There is a fairly good polish website on 1939 unit structures (regiment to squad level) here: http://wp39.struktury.net/index.html

The motorised squadron of an armoured recce battalion can be seen here, maybe it is the same as in motorised regiments?: http://wp39.struktury.net/10bk-dr-sz...trzelecki.html


Combine it with an online translator and you should be good to go.;)

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

The new source gives quite different information on the motorized recon battalion than that which I recieved from a response to a query on http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/.


My primary source for information on the TOE for the 10th Motorized is Polish Army Motorized Brigade 1939. As far as I can find the closest Nafziger comes to touching on this subject is Organization of Polish Cavalry 1939. The Nafziger information isn't useless in this respect as it does serve to show the manpower breakdown of elements above the squadron level that are included in the total numbers.

Using Nafziger's information for a rough estimate of the manpower involved in the regiment outside of the line squadrons and Niehorster's information for the motorized regiments we have something like:

This leaves 156 men per line squadron.
Each line squadron is composed of a HQ section, three line platoons, and an MG platoon with 2 .wz30 HMGs.

The MG platoon from your source in the previous post serves to show the manpower requirements of a motorized MG platoon with 2 HMGs as 16 men.

For the HQ section, again using the wp39.struktury.net source gives the manpower requirements for the HQ as 11 men.

Subtracting out the MG and HQ elements from the earlier squadron manpower estimate leaves us 129 men to be split among three line platoons giving 43 men per platoon.

The motorized recon platoon given by wp39.struktury.net shows 30 men per line platoon.

The TOE group response shows 22 men per line platoon for the motorized recon platoon of the 10th motorized brigade.

When the Motorized Brigades were created, they were drawn from the Cavalry branch and thus can almost certainly trace their organizational lineage back to other Cavalry branch organizations. It is very unlikely they would have created an entirely new organization from scratch but rather would fit an existing, familiar, one to the new requirements.

There are only three Polish Cavalry organizations for which I have 'hard' data on:
1) The Saber Company which has 29 men per line platoon. Note that this is very close to the manpower requirements of the motorized recon platoon given by the wp39.struktury.net source.

2) The Rifle Company, a structure shared by both Cavalry and Infantry branches, has a requirement of 72 men per line platoon. Note that this organization uses the 19 man rifle squads.

3) The Bicycle Company, specifically of the 16th Cavalry Regiment, has a requirement of 53 men per line platoon. Note that this organization uses a more widely used (internationally) squad size of 12 men each.

The infuriating thing is, NONE of the possibilities are a match!

Unless I've made some huge error in calculation or just plain missed something, the actual line platoon TOE is somewhere between that of wp39.struktury.net's motorized recon platoon (30% understrength) and the line platoons of the 16th Cavalry Regiment's Bicycle Company (23% overstrength).:confused:

Anyhow, its at this point I've basically thrown up my hands and said the heck with it since I'm interested much more in capturing the feel of the 10th Motorized Brigade in scenarios/campaigns than I am in pure historical accuracy.

If I had to make a guess and put my money down, at this point, I'd have to bet on the use of the Bicycle Company (53 man) with one squad (12 men) down. Interestingly enough this would make the LMG numbers match up correctly. It also fits more in with the organizations of other nations which were being studied during the creation of the Motorized Brigades.

Thanks,
Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

I like a good mystery.:)

Another polish site gives this list for the Warzaw Motorised Cavalry Brigade:

Motorised Cavalry Regiment:
-4 Line Squadrons, each of three platoons, each of four sections with 6 men
-1 Recon Squadron with Bicycle plt, tankette plt and MC platoon
-1 HMG Squadron with four MG platoons, each with 4 MGs, and two mortar platoons each with 2 81mm mortars.
-Engineer platoon (four sections)
-AT-Platoon with four guns
-Signals Platoon
-Technical Platoon
-Administrative Platoon

From:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordre_d...walerii_w_1939 (abit further than halfway down the page)

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

That leaves us with a difference of over 200 men and six tankettes between a wiki article with no references or citations and the published data by a WWII era historian with a PhD in military history (with references and primary source information available).

The article *might* be correct for the Warsaw Brigade at *some* point in early September 1939 as it wasn't fully formed and did take on additional attachments from other units. It cannot be considered accurate where the 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade is concerned unless Dr. Niehorster's data is erroneous in multiple places.

It is cases like this where I find it hard to take wikipedia articles (regardless of nationality) seriously on the details.

Look at it this way for instance, while a Saber Company TOE makes perfect since for a recon unit since not only was recon one of the tasks of a Calvary Saber Company but it is also very similar to the skirmisher (light infantry) role played by the presumed ancestral organization.

When you are talking about a line company, you are no longer talking about light infantry or a skirmish role. You are looking at front line infantry that can take and hold objectives. A 40 something man platoon fits in this role (if a bit light), a 24 man platoon doesn't.

Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Brian,

I just noticed that polish wikipedia gives an extremly detailed breakdown of the Warzaw Motorised Brigade.

According to the article a motorised squadron had:
4 officers and 116 men, divided into three platoons each of four squads.
Equipment: 10 pistols, 14 LMGs, 3 ATR, 93 rifles. 1 terrain car, 5 MCs with sidecars, 2 MCs, 11 transport trucks and one kitchen truck.

It list a fair number of sources so it should carry some weight on the issues, although i would not be surprised if there were some differences between the two motorised brigades.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organiz...erno-Motorowej


T.

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Sounds like a reasonable organization for a motorised formation and eliminates the unwieldy regular line infantry organization

40 man platoons, 10 men per section/squad.

Would that apply to all motorized units you think or just that one ?

Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

All. At least that's the short answer :D The Warsaw motorized brigade was, on paper at least, a clone of the 10th motorized brigade. As far as I'm aware, those were the only two motorized Polish formations in 1939.

I'd like to point out that, along with a 10 man rifle/BAR/grenade squad unit, a two wz30 HMG unit is needed as well. Each motorized rifle squadron had two HMGs (not three), the three HMG units currently in the OOB were (at least in the motorized brigades) part of each regiment's HMG squadron.

There was another type of motorized unit, the motorized recon squadrons. Those were, at the platoon level, basically (using SP OOB terms) a dismounted calvary troop with the addition of vehicles. There was a bit more variety amongst the recon units but it boils down to whether each team had its own vehicle or the entire troop got sandwiched into one truck.

Thanks,
Brian

PS: Yea, the numbers finally add up! I can sleep peacefully now ;)

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

There is already is a unit with 2 wz.30 HMG's ( 159 ) I'll see if renaming that works or whether just building a new one works better

The only other unknown ( for me...) at this time is when these formations were added to the Polish army

Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

I would guess that each squad would be 8 men. Just got a photobook about the 10th Motorised Brigade (prewar and sep`39) campaign and there is a picture showing several personeltransporting trucks (Fiat 621) driving along a road, each with 16 men in the back, so two trucks per platoon possibly. So three platoons each of four squads would amount to 96 of the 120, the rest would be divided between platoon leader, assistants, the biker-dudes, drivers, company staff, the ATR crew etc. In addition to the 120 men would propably come the MG section, not listed in the Warzaw Brigade OB, but they were certainly in the 10th Brigade.

Alternatly one could have 9-men squads by including the AT-rifle in one of the squads and spreading the platoon leader and his assistant(s) among the other three squads.

The formations were formed in early 1937 as an experiment, later getting more formal. Have the exact dates at home though but writing from work.

All we can usually hope for is close to the way the game works expecially when info if scarce. However, if we're counting heads in trucks how many guys are in these Fiats ? ( It clearly shows four rows of 5 men and that adds up to 20 )

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...6&d=1303705855

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Don,

Ofcourse, the game sets limits upon us so we have to work within these.

The picture is not visible (error), but if it is the first one that shows up in a google search for Fiat 621 then it would show a city parade and it was not uncommon to squeeze as many troops as possible into available vehicles during such. The photo i was refering to shows several trucks during rural road movement.

Btw here is a fieldphoto:
http://imcdb.org/i312829.jpg


On dates, first motorised formation (10th Cavalry Bde) were raised in march 1937, vehicles arrived in may/june, initially borrowed from other formations, training started during the summer.

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Is that picture of motorized infantry of a motorized infantry squadron or of a motorized recon squadron?

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Intersting. Tony says he cannot see the photo yet I see it plainly. Does anyone else not see it ?

What's also interesting is the photo I have shows the same truck with the four men closet to the cab facing backwards and the rest facing forward and there appears to be plenty of room in the truck especially between the four in the front and the 16 behind them. The photo Tony provided shows 4 men less but they are all crowded in tightly and there doesn't look like there could be room for 4 more yet all the details of the truck seem identical.

Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Yeah I can't see it either, gives me the vBulletin error: Invalid Attachment specified.

Perhaps there were short bed and long bed variants?

Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

I've re-attached it to the post. The trucks look identical in every detail except that the troops in Tony's photo look much beefier

Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Must be a heavy weapons detachment, emphasis on heavy. :D

Maybe Regiment HQ staff, clerks, cooks?

Brian

PS: I can see your photo now, thanks.

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

The guys in the second picture have backpacks, rifles and wear battledress. The guys in the first picture seem to be in full dress, no backpacks, no rifles.

Backpacks take up a lot of space.

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

I made a PNG but it was saved on the server as a JPG

Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Good point. I didn't see the backpacks and that would account for their bulkier appearance

Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

I recently asked the owner of the polish 1939 armour website "Pibwl", Michal Derela, regarding the TOE/OB of a rifle squadron and he provided me with what i believe to be the final word on the matter. The info came from a book written by a platoon commander in the Warzaw Motorised Brigade and is as follows:

Rifle Squadron
HQ Section (commander and 10 men, with 1 LMG and 8 Carbines)
Vehicles: 1 utility terrain car, 2 motorcycles and 2 motorcycles w/sidecars

Supply Section (19 men, with 1 LMG and 16 carbines)
Vehicles: 5 trucks and kitchen trailer

3 Rifle Platoons, each with:
Plt HQ (commander, deputy and runner)
Section (6 men with 1 LMG)
Section (6 men with 1 LMG)
Section (6 men with 1 LMG)
Section (6 men with 1 LMG)

Total for each platoon:
Vehicles: 2 trucks and one motorcycle w/sidecar
Men: 1 officer and 29 men
Weapons: 4 LMGs, 1 ATR, 26 carbines

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Interesting co-incidence, I just received an email from Michal on an unrelated matter. Hopefully he will start posting here soon

Those section numbers don't match the truck capacities in either photo and those numbers don'd add up . Four sections of 6 men is 24 plus commander, deputy and runner = 27 men so that 29 man figure must include the truck drivers and the deputy or runner must be on the MC and , of course, we do not use "kill me now" Plt HQ sections but rather, blend them into the squads


Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Also bear in mind that the Warsaw Motorized Brigade was not fully formed at the outbreak of hostilities, it was intended to be a copy of the 10th Motorized Brigade (the 10th was the prototype). It may be the numbers given are for the actual fielded numbers of the Warsaw Brigade but not the intended 'full-strength' numbers initially fielded by the 10th Brigade.

It does go to shed further light on the subject, but I'm still concerned that the 'top-down' numbers don't match up. I should probably email Dr. Niehorster with a summary of this thread to see if we can get a professional opinion.

Thanks,
Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Don,
I should have mentioned, but it was somewhat late and i forgot, the truck drivers (2) are part of the total (29), they were not intended to fight though. I guess the platoon commander would be in the sidecar, with propably the runner as driver. Don`t worry, i know about the policy of no "Shot me now" units, this is just to show how the OB looked in real life. In SP therms i guess the best way to portray such a platoon would be two groups of 12 men (each with rifles, 2 LMGs and grenades) + an AT-rifle team to round out the numbers

On trucks, while the polish army did not really lack manpower they did lack trucks and the 10th motorised did not get properly outfitted with such until mid-39 (so about two years with sub-requirements). They had to improvise with small towed trailers for the rifle platoon trucks that strained the available truckpark and caused frequent breakdowns. I`ll post a picture of such a little later.

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Right now based on that last bit of information I built 7 man sections and added the MC to the company sized formation. That gives a 28 man platoon which is closer than 4x6 = 24 man platoons. One squad has an added ATR.

Don

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Just noticed that TOE/OOB is missing the machinegun platoon... are you sure that is from a squadron of a motorized calvary regiment and not from the brigade's motorized recon squadron?

Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

Well, found the missing HMGs and the missing 180 men... sort of. The Warsaw Motorized Brigade and the 10th Motorized Calvary Brigade had a number of significant differences, among them the TOE/OOB of the motorized infantry regiments.

Sorry for the misunderstanding earlier, went back and double checked. You can see the differences if you compare the Polish Wikipedia entries for both units. The detailed TOE/OOB diagram on Niehorster's site matches the 10th Motorized but not the Warsaw Motorized.

So still looking for squadron/platoon level info on the TOE/OOB of the 10th Mounted Rifle Regiment and the 24th Uhlans Regiment.

Thanks,
Brian

Re: Modeling Polish 10th Motorized Brigade
 

I haven't been able to find any better information about the 10th, I suppose the major differences between the Warsaw and 10th brigades in re the motorized regiments boils down to Warsaw having the recon tankettes but no HMGs at the squadron level, versus the 10th having no recon tankettes but having two HMGs per squadron.

While I still think the Warsaw numbers are a bit light for the 10th they are closer than anything that can be currently modeled with the 4.5 spobs. Are we going to see an addition of these units and formations in the next update?

According to the information on the struktury site Tony mentioned earlier, the squadron MG platoons for the 10th motorized would be pretty closely modeled by the Para MG formation currently in the OOBs. Only difference is that the struktury info would be two eight man sections each with one HMG while the Para MG formation is one eight man section with two HMGs plus two four man scout sections.

Either way, in the interests of simplification, could the HMG platoon be added on the end of the company so that for the Warsaw brigade you could just eliminate it while leaving it in if doing the 10th?

I did run across one piece of information that gives a clue as to why this level of information is so hard to come by and why sources often conflict: "Commander of the units were not krępowani posts and have the right to movement within its own units" ie unit commanders could reorganize however they wanted!

Thanks,
Brian