Night of the Long Knives?
 

Apparently, entire threads can be deleted at the will of this board's management. I am speaking, of course, of the discussion of Sombre's banishment.

Me...? I don't care much for Sombre. He's done some great things for the game. And he's a great contributor (or was). Is he an ***? Yes, he can be. But he is what he is, and always has been.

But deleting the entire threads concerning his banishment is not the act of a democratic state. It is a totalitarian act. Shades of 1984.

I'll probably get banned for this post, or just deleted again. And why? for Sombre? No, I could care less about Sombre. I am posting for the democracy of the board.

I'll leave off my sig this time. This post is too important for my frivolous sig.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Oh don't feel too bad Lingchih. I was able to print to file most of those fun threads. Maybe they should go up on the wiki?

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Could you send me those? I'm interested in whats happened.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Ling, sorry to hear you are under the impression that the Shrapnel boards are some sort of democracy.

At best, it's a benevolent dictatorship. The best you can hope for is more benevolence.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I can understand banning someone if necessary, but I can't understand not even allowing a discussion of the specifics of it.

I mean, how do I know if it was warranted in this case, if no one can share information on it? Hm, perhaps I just answered my own question...

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Had it only been discussion of the specifics, but most of those threads that have been moved were out and out spam as well as people essentially picking fights with other people who didn't catch the innuendo right off the bat.

So, if people do want to have a discussion about it, let us have it calmly and constructively. If it's just going to be spam, yes then the moderators will make it disappear.

vfb is correct that this place is not democracy. It's a private club with its own rules.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Indeed, this is not a democracy. No privately owned message board even should be. And while Sombre can be an *** at times, I don't think he deserves to be permabanned for what I've heard he's done - he's/he was a good member of the community who frequently contributed content (mods) to the one game that we share here.

But it's not mine to decide. I don't run and moderate this place, though I'd do it differently if I did.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

That is an interesting, if blatantly untrue misrepresentation of the particular thread being referenced. While it is true that people got uppity in that thread, it was actually the people who didn't get it who seemed to be aiming to start a fight (and who were a bit rude to the OP, I might add). Of course, then certain freedom fighters leapt eagerly into said fight. But they did not start it.

The characterization of the rest of it as spam is a reasonable one. I wouldn't have said that though! Bad, bad idea.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Fair enough. But, if there were troublesome threads (and I can see your point there), wouldn't it have been better to lock the thread, with an explanation (as was done with the Political Theory thread)?

When threads just suddenly disappear (or were moved - to where?), it leaves people scratching their heads.

That said, if this is going to be kept open as a legitimate place for discussion of the "Sombre Incident", does anyone care to spill the beans on what happened, so others can form their own opinions on whether a useful, if problematic, member was fairly banned?

Yeah, I know, maybe it's all just blowing smoke, because, as people said, this isn't a democracy, and Shrapnel can do what it wants with its Forums. But maybe, at least, this would serve people as an example of what lines are best not crossed.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

What, Sombre has been permabanned ?!

He's one of the best contributors to the modding scene, what has he done that would get such a harsh result ?

I could understand a temporary ban as a warning, but that ?

Is it possible to get some informations about what happened ?

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

You'll find some, if not all, details here : http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45498

The most relevant part imho is the breaking of the forum's own rules. Indeed, it's not a democracy here and everyone should know better than breaking the rules. I mean everyone. Including its moderators as their utmost reponsiblity is to ensure those rules are law, hard as steel.
You know what happens in real life when the police baffle the rights of a prisoner, as guilty as can be? He gets released because of it, regardless of his faults.

If Sombre was indeed that foul-mouthed, he rightly deserved a temporary ban...which he never got. As some have pointed in the above thread they couldn't have made more damage to the forum's integrity by breaking their own rules.

There are weeks that start with a sad, grey and rainy day and this is one of them.:(

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I was asleep when that thread happened and I skimmed it when I logged in. The impression I got was that people who missed the innuendo took it as a serious discussion and got mocked for it and told they don't have a clue. When they asked what it was about then, more mockery. At that point it's hard to blame them for getting riled, since it is a rather unreasonable expectation that everyone follows everything that is happening on the board religiously all the time.

The post you quoted reflects that impression. I do not intentionally try to misrepresent anyone or anything, so apologies if I did give the wrong impression.

As far as more information, I need to hear from Annette before I say anything else. Her comments in the thread Kheldron linked were a bit on the terse side and rather clear on how much information would be provided:

So I would rather keep extra trouble to a minimum and doing something without getting permission first is going to be precisely the wrong thing to do.

Rest assured that the situation is not being ignored.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Glad to hear it. We're somberly waiting for for a happy ending.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Edit: Eh actually I just read why he got banned.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Well, as the one of the biggest instigators of the spam and probably the biggest I find the permanent ban of Sombre to be a bizarre, arbitrary and poorly considered move on the part of the moderation team.

Here's my view on the issue. This board is here to help sell games and make shrapnel money. Pure and simple. This section, Dominions 3, is here to sell the game Dominions 3.

This is a fine goal and suitable for a corporation or any business. I would do exactly the same if it was my game.

People like Sombre help sell this game for Shrapnel. Just like I do. How do we do that? Sombre does massive amounts of free work building mods that freshen the game and keep it interesting long after it's normal shelf life is over. Modding communities keep games going.

I work very hard to support, guide, and coach new players. I help with the wiki. I spend hours daily coaching new players on IRC. I sponsor games for new players. Players new to these boards PM me for help who don't even know me. Does this help Shrapnel? Of course it does.

Shrapnel needs to maintain some order on this forum. They own it and have the right to control it. It's thiers. They have a set of rules. But IF you publish rules you better follow them. Otherwise you just end up looking like arbitrary poofters. If you don't want to follow your own rules, don't post them. Just act in an opaque manner so no one knows where they stand.

I've been banned. It was short but fair. I lost my temper and was excessively rude to another player. So I learned. I'm not stupid. I love this place and the friends I've made here and Sombre is one of the best of them.

I also push the boundaries of the rules a lot. I love making funny posts. I also like teasing people about their fixations. Will I get more bannings? Hopefully not. Will I get more warnings or infractions? Probably. Does this mean I am not adding to the monetary value of this forum? No it does not. I add value.

Shrapnel: I don't have very much money so I don't spend a lot of money in your store. But I do buy your games. I am your customer. Listen to me. Sombre belongs here. He's a huge part of this community and permanently banning him is bad business. If we can't convince you just based on the morals and rights of the situation, stick with the business logic. Sombre is good for business.

Regards,
Maer

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

For what its worth, Sombre has been totally forthright about his end of the situation via IRC, including direct quotations of PMs. So protecting Sombre's privacy seems to be a moot point.

I'm not sure moderators or administrators should be able to claim privacy for decisions made in an official capacity, since those decisions should be open to scrutiny.

No assumptions have been made as to the sequence of events by those of us who talked to Sombre - we got them right from the horse's mouth as it were. The only thing uncertain is what the people on the administrative end were thinking at each step of the process. If those details aren't going to be shared then I think people are rightfully upset because a permanent ban seems to be without just cause from the evidence available, based on the forum's own rules. And while Sombre's stature as one of the primary contributors of new content makes us care quite a bit more than if he were some wet-behind-the-ears poster, the lack of sufficient apparent cause should be worrying regardless of who it is.

Based on the events as they are known to me, should I have been acting in an administrative capacity, I might have temp banned him. I probably wouldn't even have done that. The initial penalty seems to have covered the only real offense he committed. His lack of concern over what amounts to a slap on the wrist from a forum that is at best related to an elective luxury activity should be somewhat expected -- if that lack of concern led to more disruptive behavior than that behavior should have been punished as appropriate. Punishing thoughtcrime seems a bit Orwellian even for a 'privately-owned forum'.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Maer,

I greatly appreciate your productive post. You are correct - while these forums are not a profit center for Shrapnel Games, they do exist as a sales tool. Two very important components of the tool are our customers who contribute valuable content and our moderators who volunteer their time to help us maintain a peaceful, productive environment. Without their unpaid help, Shrapnel Games would have a difficult time keeping these forums open for our customers' use.

We all understand that tempers will flare and posts will be made that violate the rules we've put in place. And we appreciate cooperation when a moderator must step in to calm things down. The problem in this situation, and the reason I exercised our right to escalate beyond our infraction system, is that Sombre indicated to us that he did not intend to honor our requests to follow the standards we expect of all our users and that he would ignore future private messages asking him to refrain from using personal attacks. Would a temporary ban change his mind? So we're faced with the question, do we allow one user to post in a manner that we would not tolerate from anyone else?

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

But why not follow your own set of rules? Just let him ignore the rules. Get banned 3 times -> permaban. Just ignore that he doesn't care. Follow your own set of guidelines.

Now he was permabanned for saying he didn't care. And a huge ****storm went down on the forum.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Still I say it's bad PR to ban him and not provide ANY information - letting rumours and speculation run rampant, then closing those threads as well.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

If this were a public discussion forum, you would have a point.

However, it is not. It is a private forum for a commercial entity with very clear rules. As most other moderated commercial forums, it bans public discussion and second-guessing of moderator actions as that sort of discussion very seldom provides any sort of benefit to the company or to customers as a whole but do take up a lot of moderator time, keeps grievances going (self-perpetuating and escalating in the worst cases), and gives a bad impression to new forum members.

As is, you may not feel sure that this is the right way for things to work, but you don't have a say.

We are essentially in a private club with clearly stated rules and your choice is to accept the rules (even if you disagree with them) or to get out of the club.

Attempted rules-lawyering of the "I don't think A warrants action B" or "surely their own rules prohibit this because they say that A=>C (if we ignore the anti-rules-lawyering clause in the rules that says that these are guidelines* and the management retains the right to do as it sees fit**)" is futile in any well moderated forum. EDIT: And in case anybody is in doubt; The REASON that it is futile is because the management does not ignore its own anti-rules-lawyering clauses or its retained right to do as it sees fit to better serve the cause for which the forums exist.

* point #1 in the banning section, "but may be tailored on a case by case basis"
** point #7 in the banning section "A permanent ban can be applied for any reason if the Admins determine it is warranted to promote the harmony of the community"


If somebody's response to moderator actions taken against him for violating the rules is to categorically reject changing his actions to avoid doing so in the future, he is likely to be kicked out of the club (for some time or forever), no matter how valuable other members consider him to be; Being popular does not exempt one from following the club rules.

How relevant is my last paragraph to the case on hand with the user Sombre? I neither know, nor care. What I do know is that the forum rules state explicitly how you are supposed to deal with disagreeing with forum moderation: sending a PM or email to the relevant moderator or administrator.


And yes... I too have valued Sombre's positive contributions to this community but I value a well-moderated forum even more. My views on game forum moderation are shaped by experiences ranging from Blizzard's WoW forums (the cesspit of civilized discourse) and Paradox' strategy forums (at the opposite end of the spectrum). The Shrapnel Games' forums definitely belong in the higher end where the signal-to-noise ratio is high and most violations of the forum rules are done when tempers occasionally flare rather than as par for the course - and I really, really, really, hope it stays that way. :)

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Perhaps creating a subforum in which infractions and bans are listed is an idea.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

This community is not big or robust enough to lose the few people with enough drive to really contribute to it. Got no idea about the details of what happened, and I don't really care. Sombre was an overwhelming net positive for the community and I really can't imagine doing most anything in a single thread to change that outside of something illegal. Because he broke the forum rules? I don't think its really all that much of an exaggeration to say this sort of thing (along with all the ripple effects) is a catastrophic blow to a community that possibly can't take it. Presumably the "forum rules" are there to protect and nurture this community but its not the mods that make the community, and it's not Sombre that's assaulting it.

This is *our* forum. The people who write the mods, the people who write the guides, the people who help the newbs start games. The forum is created 100% by this community. You can argue that it's your site, but I promise if people don't feel like this is their community it is going to dry up very quickly. While you've got the undeniable power to pull the plug, you are hosting *our* community and banning people contrary to what the community wants is a surefire way to very rapidly kill it.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Well Annette. I think your posted policy of 2 temporary bans leading to a permanent ban would have been quite sufficient in this case. Put Sombre on probation. If he doesn't want to then follow the rules you've got a much stronger case. If the plan was to reduce disruption by removing a disruptive influence it failed miserably. Sombre's level of disruption is rarely that bad. Besides, a bit of disruption provides drama and keeps excitement going.

Unless I'm mistaken I didn't suggest that Sombre get off without consequence. But this decision to permanently ban him is extreme and I strongly believe it failed to serve your purposes. It also clearly pissed me off a lot. If you permanently banned me for the same infraction I'd work very hard to move all my friends and games over to Something Awful or some other dominions 3 environment. But I prefer to stay here.

When I acted in much the same manner as Sombre, you gave me a temporary ban. And honestly, when I go on a terror run here I make a much bigger mess than Sombre. Look at last night. The only difference appears to be I didn't tell you that I won't follow the rules in the future. But my offence was significantly greater than Sombre's. I got a polite warning this morning and replied positively. I stopped spamming.

Should you make a special case for certain members of this community? Why not? You have all the power and can rewrite the rules as required. You own these boards. The question is really why make a special case for Sombre. Because he's important to this community. Besides, you made a special case already. You immediately permanently banned him for what could very well be just a fit of anger.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Well said.

The strange thing is that Sombre is being presented as a victim. He was asked to stop making personal attacks and refused to do so. I gather his defenders would say that the importance of his contributions outweighs the importance of forum rules. I disagree. To me, having the type of civilized forums Peter Ebessen refers to is more important (even than something crucial to the MP community like the hosting llamabeast and Gandalf provide).

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Huh, Annette trying to derail discussion again and blame others. Did we not see it before?

We, as a community, were patient when Shrapnel decided to transform forums. They did things that should never happen - long outage, huge data transfer problems, etc etc. But we were promised that new forums will bring new and better quality. But in exchange we got broken functionality, PM limits, message countdowns even for experienced users, lame social addons, etc, etc. And on top total ignorance of Shrapnel, including you, Annette.

And now you are trying to use that trick again? "Make the community better, purge the evil element"? And where will it stop? Ban everyone that thinks Shrapnel is bad company [that would be everyone?]? Ban everyone that breaks rules? Oh, wait, wouldn't it mean banning mods and you, Annetter too? You know, for allowing some users to break rules? I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about :) Shrapnel loves some forum trolls and has different rules for them.

Of course Maerlande was not serious about business approach - that would mean he really thinks that Shrapnel has any idea about making money and taking care of customers. You just happen to own rights to Dominions. And Illwinter seems to be not focused at all on sales etc. Is there anything Shrapnel did to make dominions popular? I really doubt it. It's just community selling it. And you are getting money only because of us. And now you are trying to pay back this way...

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I think that might be a major difference, just a hint.

Now I wonder, if they do have to listen to the users, which side should they listen to.


This incident isn't something unique to these forums. Hell, I almost got kicked out of school once for doing something quite similiar. This isn't school, and it's not like one forum will make much of a difference in your life or anything.

Frankly, if I'm not happy at how a site runs things, I'm just going to walk away and never give a second glance back, because they don't deserve my attention. This isn't school or a job, where you don't really have the freedom to walk away when you want to. That's what Burnsaber says he will do in another thread, and I respect that. It's fruitless to call the people you aren't happy with "Nazis" or such and then try to get them to listen, because if they were they would certainly not listen to you, by definition. To lash out at unrelated passersby and anybody who isn't in your in-group, as some people did last night, is really quite pathetic. Makes it look as though you are taking your anger out on other people because you couldn't shake your main target.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that the "rules" mean little or nothing to the majority of the members of this community. They certainly don't mean a thing to me... but I rarely would consider doing something outside of most of those "rules" because, in general, they represent orderly conduct.

Perhaps Shrapnel took what Sombre said out of context of his normal behaviour. As has been said, he "can be a bit of p***k at times, but I've always just seen him as a cantankerous curmedgeonly type that does amazing work."

So, he's stepped out of line how frequently and how severely? Has his conduct actually been outside of forum guidelins on a consistent basis? No... but not because he gives a hoot about the rules. This comes across as a power trip along the lines of, "if you can't respect the rules because we made them, you're out of here."

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

You're presuming that rules deserve to be followed simply because they are rules. That's ridiculous.

I suspect that most of us are quite happy with Illwinter, but despise Shrapnel for being ineffective and incompetent. It was what, six years before Shrapnel finally admitted that they had made a mistake by not selling Dominions in digital form?. It's funny how Gandalf stopped spouting the party line about how physical media and manuals prevents piracy as soon as the game was available for download.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

( Just learned about this whole episode from this thread and the link that was given. )

I couldn't have phrased my opinion any better than Baalz said it.
I've just this tiny bit to add -
I do like the forum's overall tone to be as polite and constructive is it's generally is and I appreciate both the mods. efforts to that end and the natural good will of most players to keep it that way.
I think permanent ban should only be applied in extreme cases and according to the forum’s stated 3-strikes-and-you’re-out-rule. Extreme cases in my dictionary are, cheating, advocating for piracy, spamming, consistently stalking other player/s etc.
This doesn’t seem to be the case here.
I would like to humbly ask that Sombre’s sentence be sweetened. Please temp ban him as per the forum rules. Consider this, if you will, an act in favor of the community.
We would think no less of you, on the contrary we will appreciate and respect you more for that!

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

When I'm in somebody else's place I do follow the rules, even if it is to speak in 1337 24/7. Like I said, if I'm not happy with the rules, I can perfectly leave with no cost to myself. This isn't a situation where I might lose money or sacrifice my career by just turning away and leave.

Maybe you consider this your home, but I don't. I follow the rules here because I don't have to follow them outside of what little time I spend on the boards, and if I don't like the rules, I lose nothing by not coming here.

For what's worth, I actually don't think Sombre's perm ban was appropriate for the offense, from what information I've been able to gather. But the reactions of some of the other members are really quite jarring, for example in the communions thread last night.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

To continue my argument, this is easy to answer. The one that sells the game. There are a number of ways to look at who helps sell Dominions. Personally, I think it's the big contributors who write guides, help noobs, make mods. So if it was me, I'd sure as heck listen to Baalz, QM, Sombre, lch, Llamabeast, GP and so on. Because, like I said, the entire purpose of this forum is to make Shrapnel and Illwinter money.

Again: What makes Shrapnel money? Selling games. How do you sell an old game like Dominions? Advertise. And what the heck is cheaper advertising than free content, guides, mods etc. Heck, they even get free multiplayer servers with hosting fees paid by volunteers.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

What communion thread?

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Did Sombre even want to stay on these boards? The moderation team tells him, "To stay here, you have to follow the rules". He says, "I will not follow your rules". Was his ban a surprise to him? He never came off as an ignorant person to me, I am sure he knew the consequences.

Sombre is a great contributor, and like everyone else I am not happy he is banned from the community here. It is a niche game with very few active contributing members of his magnitude; it sucks hard that he had to be removed.

I don't think the moderation team is in the wrong for banning him. I just think it sucks and the community is worse off for it.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I'd like to second this.
I never used any of Sombre's mods, and I never liked the most of his peppery words, and I do not think that people should be treated in different way depending on their contributions (to community or wherever), but, as many people said here, the rules say there should be some temporary bans before permaban and if moderators are here to check the fulfillment of the rules, they are supposed to fulfill them themselves. It doesn't matter who the banned user is, the rules should aim for being equal for everybody (although it is clearly unreachable)

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Hi. I've been away from this forum for a very long time (because of lack of time for things like the mega timewaster that is Dominions.), and I've recently resumed lurking and now I feel like I need to post.
As an ex-moderator (ex due to the same lack of time that caused me to leave this forum), I think that the case of someone explicitly stating the he refuses to follow the forum rules (which I understand is the case) is a very complicated one from a moderator's perspective because intentionally breaking the rules is much worse than breaking them by accident (including in a fit of anger).
That said, I found that the best solution in case of repeat offenders that are important contributors to the community is to repeatedly punish them (in escalating gravity) until they realise that the severe punishment is not worth the short term "fun" in breaking the rules. Even if they disregard the rules, they eventually stop breaking them out of fear of punishment, while still contributing to the community. IMO a permaban is a tool reserved for obvious spammers or trolls (mostly people that are unproductive and don't contribute, and that have been spamming\trolling since their first day on the forum.)
So to sum up my opinion from what I've been able to gather on this event by reading the forum, it seems like the punishment is too great and not in the best interest of the community, but it is not unjustified because openly disregarding the rules and explicitly stating your disregard for them is a very difficult thing to put a moderator through and doing so does not only show disrespect for the moderator (for putting him through it) but for the community as well.
Personally, from what I remember of Sombre back when I visited the forum consistently I find it hard to believe that he would act in such a way.

That is all I have to say and I shall now resume lurking (since I have little time for more than lurking.)

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Well, it appears to be a bit of a moot point anyway, since sombre has stated now that he doesn't even want unbanned at this point. He is not coming back.

Neither is burnsaber. So the two most prolific modders in the community are gone for good, and that section of the forum will be much, much quieter without them.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I would say the forum is run "efficiently". I wouldn't say it's run "well". Here's why I think this; when I moderated forums in the past, I always made sure that I was also a member of the forums that I moderated. I contributed in a positive fashion, occasionally joked around with the members, but most importantly the members knew that I was a fan of the game first, and a moderator second. And if I had to bring down the ban hammer, I did it with the member's understanding that I am one of them and it was best for the community. They didn't always agree with me but they understod that I understood their interests. The people who work at Shrapnel are distinctly "outside" the community.

I don't know if you have a favorite Dominions nation/spell/unit, or a list of things you like (or don't like) about the game. I don't even know if you play Dominions 3 or have even tried it. I don't even know if you like video games or just work at Shrapnel because your husband does. You have invested nothing personal to Dominions 3, so when you are called in to ban someone its like you're the meteorite from deep space that purges Atlantis from the seas.

When this happens in the future, I think a better approach would be for one of the volunteer moderators who is a "member" of the forum to do the banning and you support them in your decision. When Shrapnel Games does the banning it makes you look like the faceless entity the draws universal ire while at the same time making it look like the volunteer moderators can't actually moderate without you. Additionally, it's very poor form to delete threads without explanation. A simple, "We are removing this thread from public view pending a review" goes a long way towards appearing less totalitarian.

I don't post this to be negative, I hope something constructive can be taken from it. Even if your decision was correct, you lack (and have always lacked) the soft touch that makes hard decisions bearable. I think the biggest stink about the whole thing is that it doesn't seem like the community believes that Shrapnel Games has the best interests of Dominions 3 at heart.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I feel like sombre is trying to force Shrapnel into granting him free passage, like THEY should ask him to please return. That is wrong.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Sector24: Part of the problem is that our community-raised moderators rarely participate in the community anymore. Since I've joined I've only seen Edi really contribute to the bug reporting thread, and Ballbarian seems to not have done much more than post his map making utility. So to anyone who hasn't been around forever, both of them seem like outsiders.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

I'm all for the rules, and fully support the decision of the mods/admins (what would I do in their stead ? Not that easy to figure out, methinks), but it is sad to see a pillar of the modding community disappear like this, especially when, like me, you've used their production for hours of play.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

No. He's not asking for anything. Other members of the community are. There is a certain distinction there.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Yes. Sombre does not want to come back. And he in no way influenced my efforts on his behalf. I did it entirely on my own based upon what I believe is good for Dominions 3 and playing this great game.

I come here to play dominions 3. Side effects are to make friends, have fun, and enjoy lively conversation. It wouldn't matter in the least to me if this was a vicious forum full of infighting. IRC is exactly that. Pure anarchy and I love it.

So all that matters about this forum is the ability to play Dominions 3. I've checked out some other forums and while they have strong Dominions 3 communities they stink for other reasons. Mainly, they don't have the top quality fan made content that exists here: guides, strategy discussion, mods, maps etc.

This forum has one key advantage: It's better organized. But when the quality of play for Dominions 3 here drops too low I won't bother coming here.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

does anyone seriously think banning this guy does any good to the community, or to the game, to the forums or to anyone around?
is the main point of the rules to make sure that rules are properly enforced as per the HOLY TERMS OF USE? ooooooh man he said he would not abide by the RUUUULES! this is soooo evil it threatens the SYSTEM!
man this is soooo "legal" we're talking about a GAME (remember this is supposed to be FUN?) forum you bloody losers
DO YOU REALISE YOU ACTUALLY MADE THIS PLACE A POORER SADDER PLACE just by bringing this debate in? for what gain?
just set your damn ego aside moderators, invite the guy back and if he's smart somehow he wont boast about it and we can start PLAYING again and forgetting this whole sad story!

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

This is the right way to close this topic.
Caps lock is shouting, and this is bad karma.
There are rules, you accepted them when you wrote here, calling the mods loosers is not going to fix anything.
Now, calm down and say something interesting or shut up.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

you handled this poorly. Be big enough to admit it and move on.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

True. He's refusing to do something (refrain from attacking others). Some members of the community are defending him and asking for either a temporary ban before a permanent one or that he just be allowed to ignore forum rules.

As far as him not being given a temporary ban first, I can see the grounds for that objection - if he was willing to following the rules going forward. But Sombre was forthright that he wouldn't comply with Shrapnel's request so I'm not sure there's much point in postponing things.

The idea that he should be allowed to ignore the forum rules is in my opinion obviously a bad idea. Either you make an exception for him or you drop the rules completely for everyone. I don't think either of those two is a good idea (though the first one is worse). Maerlande mentions that IRC is anarchy. That's great; I'm glad people enjoy it. But I don't think the Shrapnel forums have to be the same - having two different arenas with different standards is a good thing.

Look, I understand that people are defending Sombre both because they're friends with him and because they value his contributions to the community and feel they outweigh any negatives. But people place different value on different things. Some people value a friendly community more than they do a huge availability of mods. And it's not an invalid point of view.

Also, some people dislike Shrapnel (not sure why since they seem like a decent company to me) but you can't possibly imagine they wanted this. I think they put this off precisely because it's a no-win situation for them.

This is a situation of Sombre's creation and it's his choice whether or not to resolve it. My guess is all he has to do is refrain from attacking people. So there's some people who really annoy him. Just ignore them and interact with the people you like. It doesn't seem like too much to ask. It's unfair, to say the least, to put all the burden on Shrapnel and ask nothing of him.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

i think for most forums users this was just a non event up to the point when they felt obliged to ban him.
Sombre has been on the forums for years and I dont think anyone can say the forum have not been a mostly courteous place. I dont think either he suddenly turned into a rampaging troll threatening the forums integrity when he answered he would not abide by the rules. The question was pointless and the answer somehow inappropriate as well certainly.
This is a great example of using a vastly inadequate response force against a blatantly dismissable offense.

@Swan: I get your point and actually regret making the harsh statement.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

For the Record: Sombre never said he would not abide by the rules. He disparaged the -10 point penalty for the initial offense as meaningless. To whit:

"-10 points oh noes"
'[the penalty] means as much to me as forgetting to buy milk at the grocery store.'

(second one paraphrased because i'm going off memory)

Neither of these constitutes guilt denial of violating the rules or a refusal to follow the rules. What they do is deny that penalty (as applied following the mod rules) was something he really needed to take seriously. Pretending Sombre said he refused to follow the rules is shameful and wrong.

If Sombre's disdain for the penalty had gone on to cause further incidents and appropriate responses, leading up to a full ban, so be it. But it didn't, he was banned summarily merely for stating how he felt about the 'punishment'. Thoughtcrime is doubleplus ungood citizens.

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

aha moderator of lies thou art forsworn! answer this or thou shall be banned to Kokytos (in summer) and Inferno (in winter).

Re: Night of the Long Knives?
 

Under the current rules I'm not entirely sure that a permaban would have happened eventually. The infractions are designed to go away after a while. Sombre just said he didn't care, he thought the whole system was a joke, and part of a powertrip by the mods. (As he explained on IRC). That he was banned only proves his point.

True. Why then the exception for Sombre? No tempbans, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

You are forgetting one reason. Defending him because he is right. He should not have been banned and it was part of a powertrip. (Not saying that I agree with this, but it is a valid reason).