Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Let me paint a picture for you:

Its turn 3-4. You've managed to take 2 provinces. You have two commanders in the field leading armies of mundane troops (ie- no bless, no casters). You can probably field another expansion party in another 2 or 3 turns.

Your capital has 3 magical units, lets say two have D2S2W2 (could be anything) and research at about 7-8rp/turn (good magic scales?) and one has D1 and researches 3rp/turn.

How many of those researchers do you pull from research to go site searching manually? At what point? You are gonna want to get that gem income going early but the opportunity cost is reseach. At what point do you say, "now is the time; i want to be able to build 'lightless lanterns/frost brands/whatever' and i am gonna need gems- its time to go find some...."?


Thanks- i am a complete newb so please feel free to talk down to me and assume i know nothing.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

If you have a pressing research need then by all means go after it full-tilt, but otherwise get out site searching ASAP.

Gem income becomes immediately useful even if you can't spend it because it stockpiles, whereas if you aren't casting your new spells they might as well not have them (your fireballs don't get better just because you researched them 10 turns ago versus last turn.) So, as with most things, it's pretty situational, but in general you want to front-load gems and have the research "catch up" once your mages are done wandering around instead of the other way around.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

One thing to bear in mind though with early site searching is that it can paint your lands as a very nice early/first target to any aggressive or powerful neighbours you might have. I know if I had the choice of two target of equal power to attempt to rush, and one of them had done a lot of early site-searching resulting in a good gem income, then I'd mostly always pick that one to attack as the rewards for conquering them would be that much higher due to the gem income I'd pick up in the process (and the added bonus of not having had to use my own gems and mages to find those sites)

So if you are a powerhouse nation yourself, then getting the gems flowing early is mostly always a good idea. But if you are one of the weaker nations, getting a big gem income asap might not be such a good idea if you can't hold on to it, and it can even be a potentially bad idea if doing so makes you the most attractive target around to attack.

But it's all situational as Micah says, and all depends on what nation you are, and what neighbours you have. Although I would say it's probably a good idea not to site search until you have found a few, or most of your neighbours. As I find it is usually more difficult to balance early research/site searching ratios without knowing exactly who your neigbours are.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

If you're looking to be a possible rush target I'd file that under "pressing research needs." =)

But yeah, finding your neighbors is a good step for sure.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

One other point about site searching early is that occassionally you will find sites that redirect your game. A really good discount site or a really good mage site can open up a whole new strategy for your nation. Better to know that sooner than later after you've invested in some whole other plan.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

This is gonna be another very newb question:

when is it good/bad to site search with your pretender in the very early game (assume they aren't a supercombatant)?

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

What is early in the game? Why are they awake then?

Unless you took them specifically for site-searching (and generally, you're probably going for a dormant pretender for that), early in the game your pretender has set tasks he needs to be accomplishing, which is why you took that pretender. Otherwise he might as well be imprisoned and giving you great scales, a good bless, or both.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Well lets say you are a newb and didn't think things through that well and your pretender can either be a super researcher or a super site searcher (opening up sites you wouldnt otherwise get), what do you go with?

EDIT: and also: why would you go with a dormant pretender if its first job is going to be site searching?

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Site searching isn't worth 150 design points.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

It can be, but you've got to have a plan that requires early access to those gems.

In general, I'd agree with you.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

A rainbow pretender is a big bundle of research in one little package. This actually makes him a terrible site searcher when you think of the opportunity cost. Your pretender can either be the equivalent of 5 to 6 national mages doing research, or one exceptional mage searching for sites every other round. Its better in my opinion for you to have 5 to 6 mages go out there site search while the pretender picks up the slack at home.

The only time you want your pretender to be the one doing the site searching is when one of your key strategies involves finding gems of a path that only your god has. Even still, you want your national mages to rule out unlikely provinces in order to optimize your pretender's time. Provinces with 2 sites found already will unlikely have a 3rd.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Depends AoE.

Some circumstances where a rainbow makes a good searcher:

- You have good recruitable everywhere mages, with a good gp/rp ratio. For example EA-Ermor. The research you lose from your god researching is easily made up on national mages.

Scales go a long way to figuring this as well.

- Single path mages. Tien Chi doesn't need a rainbow to search - he has celestial masters for example. However if your nation has predominantly single path mages... Nicht var!

For example if it takes 4 mages to equal the search of your pretender, or you don't *have* different path mages.

Finally- there are some strategies which are heavily gem dependent - Caelum for example. Early site searching may be required despite it not being optimal.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

IMO taking a pretender just for the research he brings would be a very niche situation. On a non-SC pretender I will usually try to get the magic paths my nation lacks and send him start searching immediately. If you need to get a research goal reached quickly and every research point counts, only then will I consider using my pretender for research.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Since i am playing Caelum in my first MP, why would site-searching early be more important for them?
Thanks.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Chris, Funny you should mention EA Ermor. That is precisely the nation I used to flush out the tactic described above.

I used my great sage (vanilla) pretender to research while I regularly sent out Augur Elders to site search. What made the strategy synergistic was that, while searching, the elders were also able to support expansion as viable combat mages. With combat mages out on the field casting spells like fire darts on turn 2, fireball by turn 7, and raise dead by turn 12, I was assured that I would have both the gems and the power to defend myself. It gave me better expansion, the number one spot on gems by the first year, and gave me the number 2 spot on research (beaten by another awake rainbow). Also, like I said before, it helped to economize my god's own site searching by allowing him to focus on provinces that hadn't turned up sites yet.

You might disagree with me, but it would be hard for you to convince me its a bad idea considering I've seen the results first hand and found it to my liking.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

There are a number of nations who really need a research pretender. Eriu comes to mind (crappy researchers available at non-capitol locations, really needs rapid early research for optimal performance). EA Caelum also has a desperate need of rapid early research, and its EKs are too valuable to stick in a lab for very long.

I mean, in general an awake pretender is a niche choice - either you need an SC or you need the research now. And most dormant/imprisoned pretenders are taken for scales, a bless, and/or magic diversity.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Well, we agree on many things. I have no problem getting 16+ territories with ermor without combat mages the first year.
To me the problem with ermor is no middle game - one way to address that is summons.

Now, the most important way is via death - which can be accomplished with national mages. Ermor has week or no access to WANB - so its generally useful to have those paths on the pretender.

Re: Balancing Very Early Research and Site Searching
 

Well, squirreloid said it pretty well. Most people use caelums national mages for fast expansion. Hence they aren't available for site searching.