Thug and SC Statistics
 

If you had to quantify what statistics/buffs for a Thug and also for a Super Combatant are minimum, average, maximum, and also a rating out of 5 for the importance of the statistic, what would they be? With buffs and items put in brackets the importance, once again, out of 5. The statistics are AFTER buff and items have been applied.

I know that there are many many options available and that each race has its own strategies, but I'm just looking for a basic target range. I'm interested because I have no real feel for the differences and it would help me to work out what sort of buffs and items I need to focus on. Also it will be interesting to see the different approaches people have.

Here's an example...
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
THUG
MIN AVG MAX IMPORTANCE
Hit Points 15 25 40 4
Protection 12 16 22 5
Defence 10 14 20 4
Magic Resist 14 18 21 5
Strength 10 16 20 4
Attack 14 18 21 4
Precision 8 11 15 1
Morale 13 18 50 2
Encumbrance 0 4 7 3
Fatigue 0 0 4 3
Move (Battle) 8 12 50 1

Buffs/Items EoF Weapon (3), Luck (3), Poison Resist (1)
</pre><hr />

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

I like this thread and am interested in hearing what people have to say, as I have always been a bit unsure on the bright line between thugs and SCs.

Your current outline for thugs looks pretty good. I think prot maybe a bit higher on average though. Also, I'd rate Luck as a 4, and fortunately (pun intended) it is very easy to acquire.

A good shield is a must for thugs too, Vine Shield is pretty standard, probably a 4 also.

moral is probably a 3, rather than a 2; but that's just me.

I want to do more on this later, but gotta go right now.

-Omni

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

I'd say encumberance/fatigue is definitely 5 in importance, without managing it one's thugs/SCs can't really even fight.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

I would say that defence is far less important for SCs than for Thugs.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

The idea of this thread is good, the scheme is valid (with the little exception of Fatigue which is definitively a 5) for the many thugs going to support an army, or taking indie/enemy provinces with little defence.

As I have usually seen it, "thugs" are commanders equipped (with an eye to convenience) for some specific task.

So i.e. i consider thugs even the indie mages with N and A random picks which I can give eye of aiming and boots of quickness and a Ethereal Xbow/Black Bow of Botulf, Thunder Bow and so, and send to support an army. How should I consider them, SCs? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif For them the precision is important, as I want it boosted by Eagle Eyes and Aim before he/she starts shooting.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

I think generally Thug/SC tend to be concerned specifically with melee. The sniper/artillery builds seem to be less universally useful. Like in your example, since they're indie mages, you can't count on ever having them. Also, you probably won't give them any gear but the ranged item and a couple specific boosters (eye/boots), but much less gems invested than most melee units would expect.

I'm a little confused by the chart though, so not sure what else to add. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

Why ?

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

Thanks for the responses so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The figures I placed were just a stab in the dark and I was hoping the more experienced players would shed more light on it or make their own. What I specifically want out of it is a rough guide on building a thug or SC.

For example, just taking the morale line. In my chart the figures are 13/18/50 which would create a curved line rather than a 13/31/50 which would be a straight line. (The median is 31.5.) The curve is important because it tells me as a newb that the average is lower than the median so I don't need to aim for a morale of 31. If I'm around the 16 or 17 mark then that's OK. If it drops below the 13 figure then I should reconsider but it is isn't all that important because the importance rating is only 2. Does that make sense? I hope I've explained it correctly.

I was expecting different players to have different ratings as well which would be interesting to see the focus and play style within the game.

I suppose that many of the experienced players just have a natural feel for it so I was hoping to turn that 'art' into a 'science', or at least a rough guide.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

Okay, I get it then. The whole min/max thing really threw me for some reason. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I'm too tired to want to think through the chart, I'll give you a better post tomorrow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I would recommend removing Precision as a factor at all though. Like I said before, Thugs and SCs are melee oriented by definition, so missile capabilities are of negligible importance compared to any other stat. Also, combat move may not really be relevant either, as it would generally always be the last stat looked at, and since base AP has no bearing whatsoever on actual combat effectiveness, the main difference is just in the layout and scripting of the army.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

I take your point Jim but I don't share it, sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif SCs seems to me "melee oriented by definition", as they are supposed to be able to take a province with heavy enemy PD by themselves, so surely they will be engaged in melee by many enemy units and they will need to resolve it somehow... be it Fear, Awe, Petrification, AoE weapons, the Aegis or what else http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As I found the thug defined in the "Thug Built" thread, it is some commander or summon, equipped in a way that gives him some value for a task but without spending lots of gem-worthy items on it (better to save those expensive items for already strong SCs to make them hopefully almost unbeatable, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif ) So, the strong archers-commanders with the specific task of feebleminding enemy commanders with the Black Bow of Botulf, or to Soul Slay large creatures with the Ethereal Crossbow, and of course the ones you find in the thread about thug builts who are used to shoot 4 fire bolas/turn or 2 charm/turn (with crown of overmight), well, they all seems fitting the definition of thugs - to me. Otherwise we don't have any definition for them yet and it seems strange to me, as we've been them around for years now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm not saying that you definition (about melee) of thugs is less valuable than the one I found around, or just wrong. Hell no! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm just saying it can be opinable, and Precision can be a factor for some builts.

Peace on you ^_^

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
SC
MIN AVG MAX IMPORTANCE
Hit Points 30 60 400 5
If you dont have much HP, you need really good protection
Protection 12 20 30 5
With low protection, you need mistform, without a prot of at least 20, so that swarming enemys dont hurt you too much.
Defence 10 14 20 1
Who cares for defence, you will be swarmed anyway
Magic Resist 18 22 30 5
Only use MR 18 agains non astral nations, the more the better
Strength 10 16 20 2
More strength more damage, but as must damage will come from AoE, it is not really important
Attack 14 18 21 2
Aoe hits always, and most SC chassis and weapons have high bonuses, so attack is not really an issue
Precision 8 11 15 1
SCs are not supposed to wield bows
Morale 13 18 50 3
Dont use low morale scs that dont fly so you dont suffer emberassing deaths
Encumbrance 0 0 2 5
SCs need fatigue 0, so encumbrance kills
Fatigue 0 0 0 5
there is no different option than 0
Move (Battle) 8 12 50 3
if it moves faster, it engages faster but wathever.

Buffs/Items
AoE Weapon (or lots of attacks)
High Protection
Poison Resistance
Fire Resistance
Cold Resistance
Shock Resistance
High MR
Luck
Body Ethereal
Mistform
Mirror Image
Soul Vortex
Regeneration
Reinvigoration
Quickness
Fire Shield
Astral Shield
Phoenix Pyre
Breath of Winter
Heat and Cold auras
and many more
</pre><hr />

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

Hadrian_II:

I think SCs should have at least 40-50HP. With your ranking it would make Harbinger and SC and he certainly isn't one.

And it all misses the most important thing - magic skills to buff himself.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

Just to clarify/nitpick: SCs need some way to keep their fatigue from growing. That can be 0 encumbrance, it can be more reinvig than their encumbrance, it can be a life drain effect.

The buffs/items depend greatly on what your enemy is like and what your task is. For killing large numbers of chaff, AoE is nice, but what's really important is some kind of damage shield - Chill/heat aura, Fire Shield, soul Vortex, even Fear to rout them. And make sure your expected targets are vulnerable. Eg. undead are usually immune to Fear/Cold/life drain.

If he's an SC killer on the other hand, forget the area effect and go for multiple damage attacks. And all the buffs that help against chaff are wasted.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

You're right Tifone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I guess I just had my own Sniper class that I used in my head, and after awhile my own reasoning became some sort of law. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif But when I do these charts, I'll try to do 3 of them, for SC, melee Thug, and ranged sniper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

I love mistform on my thugs/sc's. Indeed H1 (for a bless), A2 (mistorm, mirror image) and E1 (stoneskin, ironskin) are all I ask for and make me very happy.

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

Hey Jim you know, the Sniper definition seems appetible to me too ^^

Re: Thug and SC Statistics
 

When I kit out my SCs I'm usually aiming for these things:

Flying
Low encumbrance
AoE weapon
Luck
High MR
High Protection
Mistform
Body Ethereal
Regeneration
Quickness
Fire Shield

through a combination of items and self-buffs.