Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

My question is simple: Is there any chance to have unknown magic sites in starting provinces?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

No. Starting provinces have your nation/theme's sites only and never random ones. It makes sense when you realize you could be stuck with something like a Chillsick Swamp or Inkpot End or heck, someone could start with something like Shining Mound and get extra extremely nice sacred troops from their capital. Would be extremely unbalancing.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Yes, but what if you got more starting provinces? (like 3)

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Yes, those provinces aside from your capital could (and in Orania often do) have random sites.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

I have played games where capitals have acquired copper mines and iron mines from events.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I have that happen, too. But those aren't really unknown magic sites in your starting province. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I didn't know about them until after the event happened... seems like an unknown magic site to me.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They didn't EXIST until after the event happened. They weren't unknown, they were nonexistent.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They were unknown and nonexistent !
THUS still unknown magic sites.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If they were unknown and nonexistent, that still means that no unknown sites existed, or in other words there were no unknown sites.

To say that there 'were' some 'nonexistent unknown sites' is the sort of 'logic' that should have NTYoda whip any putative NTJedi back to NTPreSchool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think we may have to try upgrading to XPJedi.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think we may have to try upgrading to XPJedi. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wouldn't it be better to give it up as a lost cause and go look for a linuxJedi as a replacement? I've never been fond of bloatware in any form ...

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

These are magic sites which are revealed later in the game because of an event. Until the event occurs the magic sites are unknown.


It's good to see so many people think about me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 18, 2004, 21:17: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The magic sites aren't revealed, they're created. The site doesn't EXIST until the event occurs, and you cannot search for them and find them, even with Acashic Record. They simply do not exist.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The magic sites aren't revealed, they're created. The site doesn't EXIST until the event occurs, and you cannot search for them and find them, even with Acashic Record. They simply do not exist. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ASK yourself the question:
DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THESE MAGIC SITES ?

Answer: NO because the don't exist yet

FACTS: THUS AN UNKNOWN MAGIC SITE... as per title of the topic.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wrong: The answer is actually "Segmentation fault (core dumped)", because you're attempting to operate on a null pointer. The sites do not exist, period: Therefore, they cannot be known or unknown, and attempting to classify them as such will cause a crash.

[ March 18, 2004, 21:26: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THESE MAGIC SITES ? (asking you not the game)

yes or no... and unless you created some map which has a controlled event occur the answer is NO.

UNKNOWN MAGIC SITE

[ March 18, 2004, 21:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

NTJedi...think about it for a second. Something which does not exist cannot be known nor unknown. A thing which "is not" cannot be unknown, because "unknown" presumes that it exists but hasn't been discovered.

Your argument is ontologically flawed.

Please turn off the caps lock, too - nobody here is yelling at you, and nobody wants to be yelled at.

[ March 18, 2004, 21:43: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THESE MAGIC SITES ? (asking you not the game)

yes or no... and unless you created some map which has a controlled event occur the answer is NO.

UNKNOWN MAGIC SITE </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Climbing further out on the limb with each answer, are you NTJedi? You cannot ascribe the property of being known or unknown to a nonexistent object.

(Unless you have invented your own particular branch of logic, where ontological reasoning does not hold, that is)

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unknown does not presume it exists... that is wrong.

example:
there are likely unknown substances or metals which will be eventually be created... and because they don't exist now makes them unknown.

[ March 18, 2004, 22:34: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">NTJedi is an intangible object... but does exist as it is seen by the readers here. And your correct pete this question was way way out.

[ March 18, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Intangibility is not equivalent to nonexistence. An intangible object can still exist and be referenced. A non-existent object will crash anything that tries to reference it.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

Quote:

Originally posted by NTJedi: Intangibility is not equivalent to nonexistence. An intangible object can still exist and be referenced. A non-existent object will crash anything that tries to reference it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was responding to Pete's comment and I agree that was way way OUT.

----returning back to the topic-------

These magic sites... do you know they exist?(asking you not the game)

You do not KNOW they exist until the event occurs. Once the event occurs they are known magic sites.
The iron and copper were there just not found... these deposits were unknown.

Before = Unknown magic sites

[ March 18, 2004, 22:45: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is like asking if I know the world is flat. It's an absurd question, because the fact in question is false. I know that the world is NOT flat, just as I know that the magic site in question does NOT exist!

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is like asking if I know the world is flat. It's an absurd question, because the fact in question is false. I know that the world is NOT flat, just as I know that the magic site in question does NOT exist! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">it doesn't exist YET because it is unknown... once the deposits are found the magic sites become known.

If something has become known... then before it was unknown. The events make the magic sites known.

example:
there are likely unknown substances or metals which will be eventually be created... because they don't exist now makes them unknown.

[ March 18, 2004, 22:53: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only during the time it was in existence was it unknown. The period of time in which it was unknown cannot be longer than the time it has been in existence.

Both "known" and "unknown" imply existence as they describe a property of an existing object.

If a mammoth spontaneously arises one day as the result of the unlikely collision of billions of truly unusual particles, the mammoth was neither known nor unknown to anybody on the day before, rather, said mammoth did not exist.

The same goes for magic sites generated by event.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it does not make them anything. If they exist now, they are unknown now. If they do not exist now, but will be created sometime in the future, they are neither known nor unknown now as they do not exist at this point in time.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Peter the magic sites are unknown at this time... the events make them become known. They exist as iron and copper deposits... these deposits don't just pop out of thin air.

It would be nice if gold deposits just popped in my backyard one day. Unfortunately if the gold is there then it's been there for awhile... as unknown.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is wrong... there are many unknown substances which have not been created yet. Also look at living creatures/plants which no longer exist yet are known about and so many we still have yet to find.

[ March 18, 2004, 23:27: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think you are using the definition of unknown properly. Calling the sites "unknown" is likely to do nothing more than confuse people into thinking they can cause them to be found some way other than pure random chance.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The analogy does not apply to Dom because in the case of the game, until the event occurs the deposits very much DO NOT EXIST. They do, in fact, pop out of thin air, at least insofar as the game is concerned. Arguing, as you are, from the perspective of realism is irrelevant as the game simply does NOT work as you are trying to make it seem. Which, as Graeme points out, may confuse new players as to the underlying mechanics.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, they pretty much *DO* pop out of thin air, due to divine providence. The fact that deposits don't suddenly appear out of the void in the real world has nothing to do with this: In the real world, you're not likely to be suddenly ARROWED! by a seeking arrow lobbed from the other side the world, either.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hopefully it's not confusing any new players. I was merely mentioning these are magic sites which can appear at the capital. The magic sites remain unknown until one of those events occur and will not appear by any other means. As discribed in the event the iron/gold/copper deposits are found.

Hopefully that clears it up for any new players reading the forums.

[ March 19, 2004, 01:32: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hopefully it's not confusing any new players. I was merely mentioning these are magic sites which can appear at the capital. The magic sites remain unknown until one of those events occur and will not appear by any other means. As discribed in the event the iron/gold/copper deposits are found.

Hopefully that clears it up for any new players reading the forums. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, according to the game, the sites don't exist until the events occur, as the definition to "Aschaic Record" states that it reveals the prescence of "all magic sites in a given province". As these sites cannot be found by Aschaic Record, then either the spell is intentionally misleading or the sites did not exist and were "created out of thin air".

Darryl

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The spell is worded properly. As has been mentioned before by myself and others, the sites do not exist at all, period, until the event that brings them into being and they do, indeed, magically appear out of thin air.

Acashic Record is the proof of the assertion. Once a province has been searched via this spell, any sites that show up later due to an event most assuredly do appear literally "out of nowhere", as the spell had already uncovered ALL sites that had been generated for that province at the start of the game. New sites in such a province are therefore just that, new, since "unknown" has been ruled out.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Faulty logic, as there are other possibilities - it may well simply not have existed before it suddenly both came into existence and became known. To talk about an "unknown nonexistent object" is just a problem of sloppy language. Something that does not exist has no qualities.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And brings them into existence, in reality.

In-game, the rationalisation may be that they existed and have just been found, but out-of-game, in reality, the sites did not exist before the random event.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Many elements were 'known', theoretically, long before we could make them. We can even work out their properties before making them. If they have short halflives, we continue to know about them even after the synthetic sample has ceased to exist.

But you are confusing a Category of things, such as atoms of the element X, with a specific example of that Category, such as a handful of such atoms created in a collision chamber. Before the handful was created, we knew about the possibility of X atoms existing, how to make them, when we would bang together other atoms to try to make them, and what their properties would be when they were made. But it would be silly to talk about there being a handful of nonexistent (known or unknown) X atoms floating around in the chamber waiting to 'turn into' known existing atoms.

And it doesn't matter. If there were (only) nonexistent copper mines (known or unknown) before the event and no existing ones, then no copper mines existed before the event, so there were no (known or unknown) copper mines before the event. QED.

PS: It is possible for a gold/copper/diamond deposit to suddenly come into existence in your back yard, especially if you live somewhere geologically exciting like Hawaii. But it is probably not something you would want to happen while you are anywhere in the vicinity. Although if you keep quibbling like this, others here may wish you to be! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any scientist would strongly disagree with you because there are Unknown substances which have still yet to be found and created.
If for some reason all gold in the world vanished... the properties/qualities of gold would still exist even if everyone lost knowledge about it.
If a new fuel was developed next year... this qualifies now as an unknown nonexistent object.

For heavens sake goto school !

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Goto school as diamonds and gold do not SUDDENLY come into existence. Or search the internet and you'll see what is needed !

Nature's way of creating diamonds is to subject carbon molecules to intense heat and pressure over eons of time.


------------------

The magic sites found at a capital because of an event are unknown nonexistent mines. The mines become available and known because of the event.

One of the following conditions apply:
To know about something which does not exist (dinosaurs, places or plants now extinct, places yet to be created, etc...)
To not know about something which does not exist (futuristic metals, fuels or substances)
To know about something which does exist (gasoline, the wheel)
To not know about something which does exist (cancer, quantum physics, etc.)

[ March 19, 2004, 20:15: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well. This depends. Under certain metaphysical systems, one can have non-existent objects that possess qualities. We could, for example, drag out such hideous entities as Platonic Ideals <shudder>. But of course at that point we should likely fall into a bitter, sectarian squabble as to precisely what "exists" means...

[ March 19, 2004, 20:29: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please calm down.

Methinks the problem here is essentially one of semantics. I blame the English langauge. On one hand, we have the notion of "discovering" something which was created; i.e., something that did not exist. On the other hand, we have the notion of "discovering" things which existed but were unknown; e.g., a new species of parrot or moose. One refers to gaining knowledge of something which previously had no referent, and the other refers to gaining knowledge of something which previously had a referent of which the learner was ignorant. The single term "discover" conflates the two, but one can and ought to make a distinction.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um. This doesn't parse for me. How could the properties/qualities of gold exist without a referent? Do you mean that things that were metal, pyrite-colored, more-or-less as dense as lead, etc., but not all of the above and thus "gold", would continue to exist? Or do you mean that gold's "goldness" would continue to exist in an abstract (ideal) form? And if the latter, are we then talking something like a Platonic Ideal (in that you've also posited that everyone will have forgotten what gold is, and "goldness" could not then just be a mental construct of what it is to be gold)?

[ March 19, 2004, 20:48: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For heavens sake, take a rhetorics course! - or a logic course. If you want to argue that you can assign known/unknown status to nonexistent objects, you can do much, much, better than to try to do it by blurring the distinction between an unknown idea and an unknown object on the one hand, and between a physical object developed through millenia in the real world and a simulated physical object created in an instant with no pre-history in a game on the other!

"All scientists say..." and "goto school" just don't cut it! Because they don't and we have.

[ March 19, 2004, 21:04: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, under Plato's system there is a neat answer to that in the concept of a platonic existence. Personally, if you differentiate between the concept of something and the thing itself, the signifier and the signified, I don't see where a problem exists.

For example we all know that "a unicorn has a horn on its head", but we are talking about the concept, the mythical entity. The concept exists and has qualities, but the thing itself does not. If we try to talk about a physical unicorn having or lacking a horn, we are in quite different territory and should produce the unicorn in question before the debate is sensible.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You need to take your own advice. There is no such word "goto" in modern English. This term only exists in (obsolete) computer Languages such as BASIC. The correct phrasing would be "For heaven's sake, go to school!". Please note the use of appropriate punctuation, which you also failed to use. If you're going to admonish people (in an insulting fashion no less) to improve their education, the least you could do is get it right yourself.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a PhD in molecular physical chemistry and a dozen publications - does that make me enough of a 'scientist' to qualify for your appeal to authority? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif And even a first year undergraduate should know that you can generate a list of all the elements (at least of normal matter) that can possibly exist just by counting protons.

As I said, even if no atoms of a theoretical element exists, we can still know that the 'element' exists in potentia, can often work out probable qualities of atoms with that number of protons (such as how many neutrons it needs to be as stable as possible) and so on.

But you are confusing the general with the specific. To use your example, you are confusing the general properties of the element gold with the qualities of a specific lump of the stuff. The concept of gold, the laws that govern it and set the properties of atoms with 79 protons, all exist whether or not any of the actual stuff exists. The concept is not the same thing as the concrete specific sample.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Goto school as diamonds and gold do not SUDDENLY come into existence. Or search the internet and you'll see what is needed ! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, you confuse a deposit of the stuff with the stuff in the deposit. Take your own advice: look up what a 'diatreme' is and tell us if you would want to be around when one surfaces suddenly.

If you can understand how these events could create a deposit of gold or diamonds in a particular location, but would not 'create' the gold or diamonds in the deposit, you'll be on the way to understanding the kind of fundamental logical errors you are making.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Oh...my...goodness...

I hadn't really checked into this thread for a while...and I cannot believe you are still trying to argue this point, NTJedi - especially with name-calling and accusing some quite accomplished folks of needing to "goto school", as you put it.

You are wrong. It is okay to be wrong once in a while. The important thing is to take it like a man, and admit it.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Arryn...
It was a typo... missed the spacebar... big deal and your post is nothing but an off topic flame. Stay focused or please stay off the topic.


=================

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a PhD in molecular physical chemistry and a dozen publications - does that make me enough of a 'scientist' to qualify for your appeal to authority? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then you should well know that there are things which qualify as unknown and nonexistent. I've listed only a few examples... to say someone or something knows everything about all nonexistent objects/things is obviously wrong.
A new fuel developed next year... qualifies now as an unknown nonexistent object. The discussion for developing the futuristic fuel may not have even started yet.


[quote]
As I said, even if no atoms of a theoretical element exists, we can still know that the 'element' exists in potentia, can often work out probable qualities of atoms with that number of protons (such as how many neutrons it needs to be as stable as possible) and so on.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Based on my example... The properties for creating gold would be possible yes... but until that took place gold would remain as an unknown nonexistent object because there would be no available samples(thus nonexistent). There would only be the knowledge that yes it creates something(thus unknown). Even taken to a more basic level a spider web was unknown and non-existent until the first time it was actually created.

[ March 19, 2004, 22:55: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

It is sort of fun in a sad tearjerking way, though. The way things are going, we will pretty soon all be revealing our respective scholarly titles to fight the "all scientists say" call to authority.

At which time we will have no choice but to call in the philosophers to confuse the issue once and for all.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

I'm of the firm perception that this conversation never existed.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">FYI, since I joined the forum in early January, NT has never admitted being wrong in quite a few arguments exactly like this one. It makes no difference whatsoever the topic, nor who's in the discussion, nor what facts he's presented with. He will go on, and on, and on, until he wears everyone else down and they quit participating on the other side of the debate, in frustration over what one of my college professors long ago called "invincible ignorance". I admit that I enjoy a good, healthy debate, in which someone is actually learning something. But to me, it seems that NT merely enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing. And he's not even good at arguing, itself, as an art form.

All of us should quit feeding his addiction. It's painful to those of us with reason, only prolongs our suffering, and continues to give NT an outlet (excuse) for spewing nonsense.

Sincerely,

Arryn

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Would that be the conversation or the idea of the conversation? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

*I need to sleep*

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

With Arryn having nothing better to do except drop another flame he continues to pollute the topic. Arryn please stay focused on the topic and keep your personal opinions of others to yourself.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You, long ago, ceased discussing the topic yourself. As various others have been trying to point out to you ...