Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

He he he, you're right, this is the end...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I just got jumped by a gang of geriatric bookworms wielding canes.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Heh, lovely blitz of squid globals.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Yes, nice job whomever(s). Impressive.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I'm very saddened and disappointed by what has happened. I will explain everything below, than you guys decide what you wish to do about it, if anything at all.

so, you guys noticed that all of my globals were dispelled this turn. what you didn't see was that 4 of my Starspawns were responsible for the dispels(well 1 failed I think so that could have been someone else). now, it should be obvious that I wasn't the one to order my own Starspawns to dispel my own globals, it would be very dumb for me to do this. there were also many other messed up things. for one I had 3 mages summoning some of the elemental royalty(2 earth kings 1 water queen) yet neither of them cast the spells. an S9 caster that cast wish(for a seraph) didn't happen. I had 3-4 S5(natural, as in no boosters) Starspawns equipped with 6 pearls each, with orders to teleport and magic duel some of Ashdod's mages, which didn't happen either and caused Ashdod to successfully kill my pretender. moreover I set some armies to move in and intercept Ashdod's UW invasion, which also never actually took place. there was also a Gargoyle that I've summoned yet the mage never cast the spell, a crystal coin that wasn't forged(and the hammer on the mage disappearing) and probably other things that I don't remember right now.

all in all, it seems very clear that somebody sabotaged my turn. also, seeing that this was a very crucial turn, I am lead to believe that somebody has been spying on my turns(not with scouts but actually seeing my turns) for at least a few turns now(who knows how long), to know exactly when to strike with this blunt sabotage. for obvious reasons(lack of hard evidence) I can't point the finger at any of you. however I do know that Ashdod had the most to gain from this massive interference with my game play, Amadamus seems to hate my guts after my BoT and that there are a few people that never said a word in this thread(or at least for a very long time now). this silence, especially with all the drama, is suspicious to say the least.

now, as I said, I can't point my finger at somebody, all I know is who is suspicious and who had the most to gain, but it could very well be any of you. I've checked with Gandalf first to make sure it wasn't some weird bug on his server, but the fact that nobody else complained about any oddities makes a bug highly unlikely. the timing, the location(me, being the bad guy after all the drama, and perhaps the most dangerous nation) also favor the sabotage option. I've also asked Gandalf for a reroll(just to be fair, but I knew it wouldn't happen), and obviously he disagreed(and I don't blame him).

so, here is how I see it. despite dominions not being a sport per se, the sportsmanship and fair play has been brutally attacked in this specific game. as far as I'm concerned, there's no point for me to continue(seeing that the source of the sabotage is still unknown, so it can happen again, and again, and that my turns are seen by someone else besides myself at the very least) due to this fierce and brutal outside interference. so, I'm setting myself to AI, than Gandalf can monitor exactly what happens next turn to maybe give him more insight on this situation. as for the rest of you, if anybody of you is man enough to admit what you've done than please step forward and admit it. I know it is very unlikely any of you will step up, but you have crossed the thickest red line available! the clear and obvious winner from this situation is Ashdod, whether he was behind it or not. so, if you guys wish to continue that is entirely up to you, but now the entire game balance has been disrupted by outside means. if you still wish to continue playing than go ahead, it's your call. but if I was any of you, and faced with this situation(happening to somebody else, not just yourself) than I would personally vote to end the game due to the sportsmanship and fair play being grossly interfered with, and the game balance going down the drain by foul means.

I'm very sorry that this game has come down to this low point. as you guys can see from all the things going wrong with my turn, I was in a very good position, still is despite this quite massive setback, so it's not about bailing out or anything. it's just that foul play should never be rewarded, so this is the only sensible thing for me to do.the rest is up to you guys. and for the slim chance that somebody does step up and admit committing this foul play, than I hope it would be enough of a reason for a reroll. but I don't have high hopes for that...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Ah come on BG - someone stole your PW and then reset all your moves? Occam's razor mate. Most likely you have not pressed the end turn button and quit and saved instead.

I can't help but see the irony of the situation though and i must commend you for the sympathy you heeped on me when my world turned upside down - however, there is no reason why you should quit. Fight through the pain like i did - adapt your tactics to your new reality...

Do you want me to give you a few tips? :)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I can't even tell if this was cynicism or not, in any case it was pathetic! no I didn't "save and quit" I'm fully capable of getting my turns in... moreover "save and quit" wouldn't account for casting things I didn't do(like the dispels).

now, let me ask you something. how can I "adapt my tactics" when I'm not in control of my turn? if this was simply a manner of in game actions than it wouldn't have come to that, but seeing that it's an outside interference the situation is clearly different! adapting tactics is very good as long as you're actually in control of your own actions, this is clearly not the case here! heck, throw an Arcane Corruption at me to bring horrors with every spell I cast, with that I can deal with, cast Arcane Nexus and Forge of the Ancients together and forge 50 dead cheap items every turn! I can deal with that as well! but when you take away my ability to actually play my turns, not that's different... nothing I can do about it!

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Pathetic? thats not very nice... and by the way its Astral Corruption.

Look the premise of your gripe is that some dastardly villain has hacked your game. I suggested that it was possible that you committed an error, but instead you you would rather accuse other players of cheating, that is poor form.

Hmmm, i think i used that line as well 'nothing i can do about it' when all my warlocks died to BoT...

The fact of the matter is, it is more likely that you stuffed up your turn, but instead of considering this possibility you would rather point the finger.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

see, the thing is, I didn't stuff my turn! I know fully well what I did and didn't do, and if it was simply a matter of wrong scripting than I would have just moved on! but it wasn't! why on earth would I specifically cast dispel 4 times and target each of my globals in each time? heck, why would I even cast dispel in the first place? if that Mother Oak of Man bothered me so much I'd have dispelled it long ago... also why on earth would I lie about summoning the royalties, wishing, etc and why would I give up on a perfectly fine and probably still winning position if it wasn't for something actually extreme?

now, stuff your poor warlocks and BoT already, that's something in game which can be dealt with. I won't open up that drama again, but if you still don't know how you should have countered it after all the discussions you invoked on it and the answers you received, than the problem is 100% yours... so go ahead, put up Arcane Nexus and Forge of the Ancients together, and equip like 20 thugs/SCs each turn for dirt cheap and gaining most of your gems back from the nexus. at least it's something in game which means it can be handled in game, and if not than you won fair and square. this is not the situation here, and I'm repeating this for 1 last time!

learn to read, work on your reading comprehension, I don't know what, but please start to understand what you're reading! I really didn't use difficult language, and it seems like you're just trying to piss me off by repeating your nonsense even after I already replied to it, heck I replied on it even before you made your first post!

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Actually, it does appear in the logs that certain units took steps to specifically undo their earlier actions.
It does not appear to be just "lack of actions" as would be true for a botched turn.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

But my Warlocks....

For someone who didn't want to open up that drama again, you sure didn't try very hard.

I understand that something has gone wrong with your turn.

I understand you are annoyed about it

I understand that instead of considering your own potential error in the matter you would rather rant and rave and blame outside interference.

I understand that your pretender had a password so there is no chance of someone else doing the job on you.

The only thing i don't understand is why would you dispel your own globals??

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

So does that mean that there possibly is an infiltrator?

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Yes, it seems someone may have purposely taken action that might kill the game.

Im still considering on the AI request. Im not sure if seeking a sub to step in will allow the game to properly continue or not.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Well thats a bit crap... sort of screws the game somewhat.

Anyways to catch the culprit? Does the server record the IP of those who connect in the logs? If it is a player of another nation wouldn't be hard to match them up with their previous logins.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I dont have IP logging on by default. At times I have over 100 Dom3 games running on the server. Just logging the webserver, ftp, ssh, telnet, mail, etc is enough of a load.

But when something like this comes up, it is possible for me to start logging IPs for a particular Dom3 game. I will be watching this one.

Its also possible to insure that only one player can see a nation, or turn in turns for a nation, even if the password is known. Its not something I would turn on for every player in every game but is available for problem situations.

But this is all just discussion of server options. It does appear that its too late to be of much help for THIS game.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

The bugger now is that there is the nasty spectre of suspicion hanging over the game. Personally, i think this kills it - BG should get the win by default, not a very satisfying way to win i admit.

Shame...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

It is ALSO an option to roll back to that turn, allow BG to input a new turn, and re-host.
But that can screw up things really badly. Anyone who has already downloaded this turn has to delete it
On the other hand, if the alternative is just calling the game......

But I will leave that up to you people. I will abide by a general decision this one time.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

There is that option, but it is the actual act itself which sullies the vibe of the contest. Plus, even though it is unlikely, there is always the suspicion of it happening again this time more subtlely.

see what others think.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Seriously, the only logical choices are to rollback or call the game. Rlyeh's position is ruined by deliberate sabotage. No one should sub into that position. This is far worse than a game bug.

BG may even have the .2h file he submitted (assuming he hasn't saved after looking at the new turn), so it may be pretty easy to re-upload.

I will note that there's no way for the hacker to look at BG's submitted orders, so subtle sabotage would be hard. He can't just change things - he gets the .trn file and can input his own orders. He can't get the submitted .2h file unless he's actually hacked the server itself.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I don't understand why someone would want to cheat at a strategy game like this. The purpose is to learn and develop strategy. If one's only goal is to win so that one can have some sort of "Wingasm" or for Internet notoriety on a low-population forum board then that person a giant douchebag and they fail at life.

Why? Because such a person is not smart enough to handle situations on their own, but they want people to think that they are. They don't seek to become better able to succeed, only to pretend to succeed, and such a person is likely to be the same in real life as they are in fake life.

In closing.

I vote to roll back the turn(s), even though my stake in the game has been reduced to near nothing.

Don't play douchey....

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Bugger this.

I knock off his pretender, after chasing him around for 5 turns.
No squad of teleporters, magic dueling could have helped.

His interception army may of may not have hit my squad of thirteen mermen raiding his backyard - not a big deal since he hasn't moved towards me for the last three turns. This turn was no more critical than the last one.

Now he knows my plans, and to top it off he implies that I sabotaged him.

If anyone sabotaged him, I strongly condem the action. Doing a roll-back seems to be the only remedy. However, a roll-back also gives R'leyh an advantage since he has already seen what I intend to do, and the specific capabilities of the units that I have.

So Blackguard what do you suggest to make this equitable?

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Furthermore, I find the tone of your messages insulting. I have forgone responding to your continual Ashdod bashing, and personal insults towards myself and other players. I have treated you politely and have not provoked, insulted, or mistreated you in any way. If we continue this game, I would appreciate it if you would treat all players and Gandolf with more courtesy.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Man I am still angry. Can you tell?

Consider the blunt nature of the sabotage. If I did have access to your turns, I would simply mine them for information, and maximize the actions of my units.

I am insulted that you think that I am so unsubtle as to commit such obvious sabotage.

:)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Nauquan, I didn't point my finger specifically at you, all I said was that you had the most to gain from this sabotage act, which is true. with that said, I also mentioned Amadamus(for hating me after the BoT) and people who haven't said anything for a long time, as well as anybody else. I don't really know anybody who plays here, so I can't say who is or isn't capable of such an unsubtle action, as you put it, so I can't rule out anybody either...

as for solutions, as far as I'm concerned there is *no* solution, at least as long as we don't know who sabotaged(and well, probably spied) my turn(s) and how we can stop it from happening again. I doubt we can do that, so the game is pretty much over for me... what you guys do from here is entirely up to you...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

When you say "I don't want to point any fingers" and then go on to mention some specific players, that is pointing fingers.

In the same vein if someone say's "No offense but ...." and then says something offensive, it is still offensive.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

no, it's call stating obvious facts, and you can't deny that you had the most to gain from the situation... don't blame me from being hurt by the truth, it's not my fault, nor is it yours. it is your fault when you see it as finger pointing instead of what it actually is, simply stating the obvious(facts). same usually goes for "no offense but..." it's a matter of how the other person takes what you're saying and your tone(as much as you can reflect tone via writing).

moreover, since you seem to want to take this more personally than it should, and trying to discredit me and being so shocked that I mentioned such a simple fact, only raises the suspicions against you. it's called: acting suspiciously. now, this is not to say I accuse you of anything, again I'm simply stating obvious facts.

now, take this any way you wish, I've said what I had to say and tried to explain it the best I can. how you(or others for that matter) wish to take my words is totally out of my control...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I can understand why you feel that the game is over for you, because another player can sabotage or merely peek at your future turns.

I fear that the game will be over for everyone. Since the capability of hacking a turn exists, anyone can be hacked. And since it is known that it can be done, then more people will figure out how to do it. Not just for this game, but for any of the Dominions MP games.

Very sad.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I wont comment on THIS particular event.
But as an internet admin, and a netcop, I will point out that the weakest link in just about ANYTHING on the net is the strength of passwords.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

****ty situation, this.

I'd be willing to accept a rollback, though as you say, it doesn't really solve the central problem. (Only Blackguard can really theorize on his own personal password strength and whether that's liable to have been a problem.)

Edit: reread Gandalf's posts. Durr, it might actually solve the central problem, if he sets it so only Blackguard can play Blackguard's turns.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I will continue to play if there is a rollback. I reserve the right to whine more than Blackguard henceforth.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

(Been chatting with Blackguard over PMs, he suggested I drop this into the thread for a better view of my mentality on all this, so why not.)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I feel that the sabotage is very regrettable, but I have about the same level of sympathy for BG as he expressed when my turns staled.
For me personally, the game is now more interesting and balanced and I would prefer to play on, but can accept the rollback if that is the wish of the majority.
If Gandelf can insure that it doesn't happen again, why not? Depending on how you interpret the stats, Rlyeh is still the #1 or #2 nation out there.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Well allowing the AI of Rlyeh to go thru will insure that it doesnt happen to Rlyeh again.
Whether it can happen again depends on the passwords of the players.

But I can leave the watch routine running, and the fact that its now recording who uploads what files can be a deterrent to future efforts.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

There are still a good few titanic clashes to go, yep.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Hmmm. Think of the bad turn as a handicap to the game leader?

I don't think just setting to AI is the answer since I will be able to take advantage of that.

How about this ... we all agree that nobody can enter the water (except maybe scouts for arms control verification). Turn the AI on for R'leyh and it would be a permanent hazard to nearby players.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Thinking on this over night and seeing responses such as this in the morning, i'm left feeling rather annoyed about how this has been handled.

Seeing as you are quick to point out facts (which are actually not facts but mere speculation), let me run through some other 'facts'...

1. The probability of Gandalf' server being hacked are minimal
2. The probability of someone guessing your PW are minimal

Seeing as you are a master of 'facts' here are some other possibilities.

a)You changed your turn and the actions of your units to enable you to come on the forum and cause a ruckass.

b)You have someone living at your house with whom you share your computer with and they logged on and mucked up your turn as a prank.

Frankly BG, you did point the finger and did name names - no matter how much you spin it. The unwashed crettin like manner in which you have conducted your self is appalling.

If you don't want to play on fine - but i dont vote for a roll back. The probabilities that the issue is on your end is far greater than someone in the game interfering with your turn.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Well, I certainly prefer it to setting it AI with you able to enter. ;)

An intriguing idea. I'm in favor of the agreement.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

It would be better if R'leyh could be removed from the game, but I don't know if that is possible. Just so everyone knows I have about 4 of R'leyh's water provinces right now. Two of which are just raids and soon to be lost.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Before all this hullabaloo happened, I'd been talking with blackguard about the game a bit, and we had a discussion or two about his strategy. Having had those conversations, I think there is about a 0% chance that he sabotaged his own turn. While it makes for amusing speculation, it makes no sense and certainly does not fit with my knowledge of his intentions for the game. And probability 2 is pretty minimal, you'd have to actually know how to play the game to sabotage the turn in the way it was done, and know the password he was using.

Anyway, accusing each other isn't getting this game anywhere, so you guys may as well just stop. Seriously there is no point to arguing about this, whatever bad blood there is between you. It looks like either:

1) You guys roll back the turn, gandalf hosts the game with everyone's old turn and hopefully blackguard still has his old one and can submit that to gandalf, OR everyone redoes the turn. From now on gandalf puts all his cheat protections into place for this game, and you guys accept that there may be some bugginess that could kill the game later.

or 2) Blackguard goes AI, you guys decide whether going underwater is kosher or not, and gandalf still should probably place all cheat protections in place for this game since there's an extremely high probability one of the players is a cheater.

Alternatively, end the game right now, knowing that one sad, sorry excuse for a gamer just ruined the game for everyone, because if blackguard goes AI there's a very high probability the course of the game will be forever changed. Not to say he'd win, but he was strong enough that win or lose, he was going to really hurt anyone he warred with, making them much easier for neighbors to kill if nothing else.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I would say end the game. I'm not a part of it, so I have no say, but I have been following it here and on IRC. The best choice is to end the game now. There has been obvious cheating, and that is not a part of the Dom3 community.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I'd actually go with this -this is a sad state of affairs.

But it cannot be explained how someone else can access the game besides BG. The aligations of cheating are serious and with out any proof that we have a genius hacker in our midst, It is rubbish that all the players in this game are implicated and carry a stigma of cheating.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Whilst this may be so, the other likelyhood that the server was hacked or someone guessed his pw are just as outrageous.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

It's easy enough to download another player's .trn file through direct connect. Assuming poor password security, a simple and easily automated dictionary attack will get you access to a turn file. Other attacks may be possible depending on the security of the .trn file's password system (and I have no idea how secure .trn files are - I'm not into hex editing).

The idea that hacking is less likely than anyone intentionally going back into a completed turn and
1: Countermanding a series of critical orders
2: Destroying some of their own items
3: Casting 4 (count them, 4) dispels at their own globals
is pretty ludicrous.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Sounds like both of the scenarios you paint are equally ludicrous!

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Or another solution is double personality ;)

Auto dispeling globals can't be a file or turn problem, all this is very strange but hacking the file of blackguard is so amazing that i can't imagine it, but as BG said facts are here.

So what is decided ? Game is stopped or not ?

My nation is not in a good position to prononce for stop or not.
And i'm leaving in holidays tuesday, but it's very sad the game was perfect before this amazing turn.

I would be very happy to begin in September a new game with the same players in the same conditions and hosted by our super Gandalf.

But it seems important to understand what happened clearly in this game.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Hacking .trn and .2h files has been done before. Normally on a player's own file, but there's no reason not to extend the principle. And if you aren't hacking a file to do anything obviously advantageous to a player, then the inbuilt cheat detection might well miss it entirely.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Dom3, or the topic of direct-connect vs pbem, dont make this a new subject. Pardon a netcop lecture but it still boils down to having a password and choosing one that is at least laughingly unguessable. I feel that I can safely say that if everyone puts a password on their pretenders that is even jokingly reasonable then this is becomes as unlikely as any other password secured service on the net.

Part of the problem is actually unique to this forum. Some of the people here are actually told NOT to password protect their pretenders for IRC blitz games, and sometimes for PbEM games. So even though I try to specifically SAY that pretenders should have passwords (see post #2 of this thread) there are still people who have no password, or it matches the nation, or the players login. In such cases, I have trouble feeling any shared responsibility for what happens.

So far it seems the smoothest (even if not best) course is to allow the AI of Rlyeh and allow everyone to decide for themselves if they wish to continue playing. So for now, consider that to be the action unless there is a definite group agreement otherwise.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

ahhh. Things are clearer now.

OK moving forward.

Can we vote please?

1) Stop the game

2) Play on with R'leyh set to AI, look for a substitute

3) Play on with everyone out of the water, R'leyh set to AI.

Please let me know as the Ashdod war machine has a large investment in the water at this point.

I vote for #2 :)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I wonder if the AI will cast BOT :)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

AI is a one way trip. Once the game hosts with Rlyeh set AI, it cannot go back to being a human player.
So its either AI, or substitute. We cant go AI then sub later.