Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Sorry about the stale turn, I thought I had the timing right and was off by an hour ><. Finals week is rough!

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Well, I'm back in town now and I have regular Internet again. I can continue to take turns, as it doesn't look like anyone has taken over shinuyama yet.

Unfortunately, my northern neighbor grew to about twice my size in the time I was gone. I will need a bit of luck to be anything more than a speed bump.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Best of luck to you then, since I'm pretty sure I'm not your northern neighbor and therefore I want you to cause him as much trouble as possible.

(Jotunheim? Man? Yeah, I know, you'd be silly to say, gotta be nervous enough about both your neighbors already. I'm just idly guessing based on the explicably scary and inexplicably scary on the scorechart.)

The squids definitely have a lot of gems. I mean, yeah, okay, we all saw that coming, voice of tiamat + astral probe, but it's still scary to be on the other end of it. Especially with my first sitesearcher being completely incompetent.

I don't think he's found a single site. All the growth you see on my graph? Yeah, that's from the later employees or my pretender. Some dedicated scout HE turned out to be.

Lastly and minorly: I finally got around to mucking with Ashdod in SP, and sweet Jesus I'm glad we're playing CBM. Turns them from hellishly overpowered to... er... hellishly overpowered but with a bit of a gold bottleneck? Mages running from 200g (gotta love guaranteed lv2 in a path, though) to rather a whole lot more.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

yeah, Ashdod is by far the strongest nation in all 3 eras. well, Ashdod and Hinnom I guess ;) and it will become a monster unless you guys stop it early. I don't envy his southern neighbor, who ever he may be but well, he's got me on his north and without water access for the time being.

and yeah, you're right about my gem income, mainly Voice of Tiamat, no surprise there...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Pythium, Ashdod and their relatives are the nations I never play because, if I win, I always feel like I've cheated somehow....

Ashdod is lovely because it's mages are so powerful, you can easily take an imprisoned Bless pretender build, and your Bless doesn't even have to be top notch, so you can take fabulous scales too (because you need them anyway), the +2 Heat requirement also gives you a lovely extra 80 DPs just because Ashdod really needs that boost. My second favorite power mage being the joined-path King of the Deep from Atlantis. 3W plus a 2-linked that can make 1/5 a 5W mage which is nothing to sneeze at on the land and completely deadly underwater--easily summoning masses of regenerating water elementals... just lovely.

Giants, once they are outfitted with appropriate gear, become, not just thugs, but recruitable SCs. They are incredibly powerful. On top of all the awesome stats they have, they can also wear 3 pieces of jewelry. Also note:

They have hideously cheap slinger slaves (and you know you have to take at minimum production 0 or you'll have crap for an army for a very long time) and 1/3 Talmai Elder can easily cast Flaming arrows, so you have Fire-immune SCs stomping around with swarms of deadly chaff.


I have found Pythium (and especially Sauromatia) to be similar. My brother is fond of using Emerald Lords as thugs in MA, and they are quite tough little units especially when backed up by some lovely buffs like Body Ethereal, Luck and Quickness.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Pythium I'd say dances on the line. It's not as conspicuously overpowered as Hinnom/Ashdod - Gath is somewhat closer to sanity just because there are so many other LA nations with decent conventionals, thugs, or vampires - but there isn't much in the way of obvious weaknesses and they have a lot of decent strengths. They do fall a little short in magic diversity, but with very strong air and astral and okay water, I'm not sure they need it. Extremely decent infantry, an absolutely insane early game, mages that are purpose-built for communions, some pretty good thugs, and the lower levels of angels are GREAT.

So are the Seraphs, obviously, but in endgame anybody with astral's going to wish them up anyway, so them being Pythium "nationals" doesn't really count in my book.

I hadn't really thought of the emerald dudes as a thug chassis. You're right, they're really pretty good. More importantly, they're incredibly cost-effective. A nice thing to segue to if you get carried away with the early-game hydra rush and someone pulls poison immunes out of their bum.

Pythium's really more on the level of Van, Jotun, and so on. Whether that's "overpowered" or just "top tier" depends on your point of view, I suppose.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

So one thing that has me worried about this tower map... if we do decide we need to gang up on someone, it seems like the only thing we can do is funnel gold & gems to the poor guys adjacent to the troublemaker?

Later on I guess teleporting would work also.

So is it safe to assume R'leyh is clamming? Or is that huge gem income from site searching?

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Last time I checked, clams were invisible to the graph, so the reality's probably even worse.

R'lyeh's just spamming the hell out of Voice of Tiamat. Between that and his bazillion astral mages, he can sitesearch all 20+ of the map's water provinces for five types of site pretty painlessly. Six if he designed his SC with a dash of nature or death. And it's not actually a BAD idea to convert a lot of those gems you won't be using anyway and drop Akashics on captured land provinces. (It may be a bad idea to do it on sea ones, though, unless you see weird scales and really want to reveal the site causing them. Or have ludicrous amounts of gems and forgot to bring a nature caster to find kelp forts.)

Strictly speaking, it's not IMPOSSIBLE to bring more players to bear, especially if someone's getting hit hard on the other flank; on the other hand, best-case scenario leaves you with a pretty lengthy and of necessity very thin supply line, for a gain that may or may not be worthwhile. Depends whether you feel that stopping, let's say, Ashdod is worth committing some of your armies to a risky task as opposed to eating the buffer state outright and praying you can handle the threat on the other side.

Don't underestimate the power of gem donations, though. A couple (dozen) good thugs can turn quite the tide.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

That is the idea of the map. To make it so that ganging cannot easily occur in early game. So yes it will probably wait for spells, or bribery.

And you missed one. Some nations have the ability to send entire armies thru other peoples territory. An ability generally overlooked but a possibly useful ally in this game.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

True, some sides have stealthy soldiers and commanders, they could easily do some guerilla tactics. I know that if I had that available as Agartha I'd be taking advantage of it heavily.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Just so y'all can sleep better at night. The squishy fishies and Ashdod are already fighting each other.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I can - and I really shouldn't be reminding people of this, but hey, maybe the utility to my friends will offset the utility to my enemies - send empoisoners and their ld10. Which isn't really huge for conquest or raiding, but with a bit of gearing they can be godawful annoying (and the ten escorts give them half a fighting chance if they're caught by a minimal PD or something).

C'tis isn't really Vanheim, though. And marshmasters have to walk to their destination. Unless I really want to break out the Faerie Trod, which is a spell level I can't be arsed to look up right now and anyway is a spell I should probably test out. Isn't it one of the ones that can get your army disappeared?

Edited to add, having read the above comment: HOORAY!

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

lol, you call that "fighting" Nauquan? :o that was more like an expansion party trying to form a base on the coastline, not much else...

and yes, I already mentioned that all this gem income you see on the score graphs is Voice of Tiamats. it ain't not secret that it's the best remote site searching spell, and makes finding water gem income a breeze... and well, clam income is invisible...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Yes, if someone is clamming you won't know it until you either see their clams, or realize that they are casting wish multiple times each turn.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Perhaps this has been noted already, but when I connect to the server, download the latest turn and then "options/quit" - a 2H turn file is uploaded, even after I accept the warning that my turn will NOT be uploaded.
The last turn was a bit of a surprise for me as I had not yet submitted any build orders, and only a few moves.
I guess the thing to do is to quit immediately and then log in as a local game.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Yes that is broken in the game. To do your turn offline requires
A) connect and download turn
B) quit Dom3
C) reopen Dom3 and select "Play an Existing Game"
D) open the stackers game and work on your turn. Hitting end as many times as you want.
E) when you are satisfied with your turn then connect to the game and hit end to send in your turn

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Nope - not a kraken :D

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I've always thought Void Lords were REALLY COOL. Bit expensive, but they have slots! And a lifedrainy trunk!

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

The Void Lord is my favorite R'lyeh chassis. I like the Polypal Queen thing in EA, though--just for looks, mostly.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

jee, so much for keeping private information to yourself Ashdod. oh well, hunting season on you has begun, before you grow too powerful to swallow all of us whole... unfortunately it's hard to gang up on you in this tower map, but if any of you guys still don't realize the threat that Ashdod is to everyone than just take a look at Ashdod's wiki page, these forums(hint, Ashdod is banned from most MP games) and of course the score graphs. also keep in mind that while I appear to be big and strong I'm also very limited to the water area, thus can't expand at will onto land. this is especially true as I've got said Ashdod as my southern neighbor(yes, that means just south of the water area on the map)... so my current power on the graphs is currently very misleading, and Ashdod has already caught up on most of the graphs, all barring research IIRC(and that's only due to Voice of Tiamat, soon though he'll have enough territory and time to search it all to catch up there as well).

and yes, you read my mind perfectly Greyjoy, the Kraken would have just been useless way too fast, especially on this map. no magic, poor slots and aquatic(so requires 1 of the miscs for amulet of the fish, which is harder to craft in vanilla as compared to CBM). the Wyrm also suffers from bad slots and no magic but at least is amphibian, still very costly for its very limited utility early game. the Void Lord does all that, and remains useful later on thanks to his normal slots, so yes I payed more for him initially but he's paying me dividends now...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Gee - Does this mean we are fighting now? :shock:

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

do you see a serious army of mine at your border...? didn't think so... so jee, I don't know, you tell me? but no, we're not "friendly" if that's what you're asking, that would be stupid seeing that you're Ashdod and all that... for me to secure your north, and by a good margin(all the water area) would be suicidal both for me and everybody else(as it will allow you to run rampant with nobody to even attempt to stick a metal bar in between your wheels)

oh yeah and those Mermans were really funny, no idea what you tried to accomplish with them... but hey, come again, I'll welcome more of these attempts with open arms ;) bring some commanders with gear too while you're at it, who wouldn't want some free gear? :D

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

On second thought, since I am new to MP games here. Did I just violate some etiquette by posting that screen? Since we did not have any sort of agreement, I thought it was fair, but I might be wrong.

I am not going to argue about who is winning. No doubt Ashdod starts well against independents, but I am sure my inexperience will tell in the later parts of the game.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

yes, it did break "etiquette" or whatever you wanna call it. private information is generally to remain private, or shared with specific parties involved in whatever the information is about. in this case there was absolutely no justification for it, heck, there wasn't even another party involved, not to mention everybody in the game...

and no, it's not just "Ashdod starts well against independents" it's more like Ashdod does that, and has terrific mid game and spectacular late game. forgive me for not explaining all your strengths in each stage of the game, as it'll basically give you a sword to chop my own head with... very unwise... yes your inexperience will probably take its toll, but we're all newbies here(some only a bit more experienced than others), but not realizing Ashdod's horrible imbalances is almost a crime.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Don't worry, I'm even more terrified of Ashdod than I am of you.

Shinuyama's his southern neighbor (or will be once he finishes eating AI Marignon), so anyone who wants to help that war effort but is hesitant about funding cephalopods can toss spare gems Shin's way. As a bonus, bakemono magical diversity is pretty ridiculous.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

13lackGu4rd,

I am sorry I posted that information. I'll keep my information more private since that is the custom.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I don't really think posting privy intelligence falls in the same league as breaking alliances/NAPS or, god help you, trade agreements; but you certainly didn't please Blackguard. ;)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

never said it was in the same category, but it's still something that is against the norm in this community... take a look at other MP games here, count the amount of times you see such private information sent in public. personally I haven't seen any such a case, please point 1 or 2 to me if you do find them. if you don't than well, that was my point...

P.S Legendary Ordeals is different, all the images there are from Burnsaber(the game master) of that game, as its a special format. notice that he's not actually playing but taking an active admin duty, just like a DnD game master.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Was this info sent to you in private message or email? THAT would have been wrong.

But if you saw it in the game then probably the worst thing you did was post it negligently. It is game info. If you had sold the info, or posted it in an aggressive manner such as "this is what he has and this is where its located", or used it for propaganda purposes then that might have been more game-like :) Of course you would have to live with the impression.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

"game-like" maybe, but still it's not something that is being done around here... go ahead and look for previous examples on these boards of people posting such information publicly in the game thread. personally I haven't seen any but it doesn't mean there aren't, just that I haven't stumbled upon any, and I've looked into all the top 2 or 3 pages of MP games here...

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Excuse my poor english (i wasn't a good student)

As we are all newbs in MP except 13lackguard and maybe 1 or 2 more players (tell me i'm not sure), it seems to me clear that we make errors and don't follow the established rules.
(what are they ? I don't know)

But all this don't shock me, i have a real fun to play with you, i think we don't have the same level in the game but in fact it doesn't matter.

One part of the game is communication and information. The difficulty for a strong nation in a MP game (i suppose) is to show/communicate enough weaknesses to not attract the attention...

If all the players agree on one unique threat, the threatener will have more difficulties to survive ?

So Naquan and 13lackguard are competing to explain that yes they are well developped but they are not a real threat, and have drawbacks (aquatic / lack of experience)...

And if i was 13lackguard i would be happy to have a drawback more : my pretender is public now !!! In fact it's a very good point for him and he would thanks naquan for it, is less a threat now (but he's still strong) this kind of communication and event is really good.

And now what will happen, if they decide to npa together ? the two strongest nations decide to divide the world, sure to the final fight ? having a neighbour or an ally in a stacker game is a real adavantage, you have just one war to manage each time, and you are sure to spend your armies on one side, i think it will be tremendous advantage.

I really like my first MP game...
Thank you Gandalf, stackers is a great idea for beginners

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Thanks for the thanks. That is the payment that keeps free things coming. :)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Aye. Both this game in particular and the server in general are awful handy things to have. Thanks for running them (and publicizing them; I'm a born lurker, probably would have taken me a while to throw something together myself).

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Void Lord Posting

Personally, imho just because something hasn't been done before doesn't automatically put it on the forbidden list.

So 13lackguard created a terrifying SC, and now he wants to sucker-punch every newbie in the game with it. Tough.

What would happen in real/fantasy life? - the word would spread like lightning. Because it's terrifying.

Naquan - don't worry about it.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

It's actually not that frightening really... without gear. I want to say more here about why it's not that frightening in comparison to certain other people but I don't quite feel justified doing so in a game I'm not in :P

And as far as the screenshot of the god, well, it's not exactly forbidden or anything, but it's a bit... hmm, I had a better word earlier, but let's go with unsportsmanlike. It's something I would frown upon seeing in a game. It's one thing if you are collaborating with someone to give them information about the enemy's god, but giving that out in public definitely doesn't quite sit right. Anyway, it's probably not a big deal for this game... it's a newbie game, and talking about things is a good way to learn about them. It's good to be aware that sort of thing might alienate other players though.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Mmmmm pretender porn

It's so gratifying to finally see the root of Blackguard's power

And that tentacle is just to die for! :p:p:p

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Heehee. Snapshot a god, photoshop the image, post it publicly.
Not my style but it might be funny

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Just to clarify, the information was obtained after my elite squad of mermen penetrated the border to raid a possible construction site. They sucessfully killed a couple security guards and one fishy looking guy in a red robe. Before they could withdrawal this large half man half octupus teleported into our midst.

Foolishly, my squad choose to attack this beast, but when it came time to stick it with our pointy sticks, my men just stood in awe of his great big -er- tenticle. After seven of my mermen were killed by his huge -er- tenticle, the rest finally came to their senses and swam back to shore. It is obviously hard to walk with such a tremendous -er- tenticle, so he never caught up with my troops.

Anyway my men were so impressed that they had to tell everyone about it. It really isn't nice to talk about someone's -er- tenticle in public. Those responsible have been sentenced to patrol duty for a month.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

So, I've learned from this game what I already knew -- that if you don't expand rapidly and establish a dominating troop presence early in the game, you're done.

Ermor is officially toast, and since there is no AI option, I guess the next few turns are going to take a while for you all. Unless someone can suggest an entertaining way for me to die? There's no suicide option for my troops

Oh, wait, that's right, Bogus is still active, I can try to kill him, that should be fun.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Since I had the privilege of observing (what I assume to be) Ermor's last stand in (118) I might be able to offer a little advice. Keep in mind that this is my first MP. Don't take any of this too seriously.

First of all, Ermor's national units were outnumbered by the enemy's national units. This is probably the result of economic imbalance or past defeats. The disparity in national units could probably have been remedied by stronger expansion.

However, the biggest factor in the battle was not a disparity in national units. I think that your enemy would have won with a force only half the size of yours. In my opinion, the most important lesson is that a powerful army is based on synergy between commanders, nationals, and summons, not on massed national units alone. The real killers were your enemy's commanders and/or summoned troops (or were they freespawn? I'm no expert on _____), which used magic and/or gear to deal severe damage while the national troops were little more than blockers.

Also, where were the undead? When I got the message "_____ has attacked Ermor in Inuptia" I really expected to see a huge number of longdead horsemen on the field. I was quite shocked to see principes instead.

Edit: After reviewing the province graph, I have to conclude that expansion had very little to do with the outcome of the war. Ermor was not very far behind his conqueror in province count until after the war was underway.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

That actually was my smaller army. The larger army was attempting to engage his main force and missed. His main force combined with some lesser forces and stomped my smaller force. But with the loss of 1/3rd of my troops, along with the combination of another player deciding to join in, I'm toast.

My frustration is seeing how completely ineffectual the smaller force was against the larger... had I at least inflicted some casualties, I wouldn't have minded so much. I took a gamble, and lost badly. I could have played defensively, and only engaged when I was certain of numerical superiority... but that inevitably leads to me parking my army on my capital and waiting to be attacked. That's simply no fun.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

I also happened to have scouts watching the fight. I think the principes actually inflicted notably more casualties on their opposite numbers than vice versa, but that's not really what the infantry swarm was for - they were mostly there to just keep the principes pinned down while the mages spammed evocations.

And yeah, I too am puzzled by Ermor's troop composition. Puzzled, but not necessarily distraught.

Do remember that nether bolts have a good chance of feebleminding targets in the area. You may not be able to win, but you can certainly annoy one or both of the *ahem* perfidious invaders.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

MA Ermor is first and foremost an undead nation. yes, you still have your national troops and Principes are still very solid national units, however they alone won't get you anywhere. there's a reason why you have the reanimate option on your priests(even indy priests) use it. especially H3(which you can easily recruit from your capital) as they can summon Longdead Horsemen, you know those guys that come in the level 9 conjuration spell Ghost Riders(just that in this case they come with a Wraith Lord commander, who is the main component of the squad). at this stage in the game MA Ermor should have ~300 Longdead Horsemen waiting in his capital unless he had to use them earlier in battle, but that usually isn't the case as your Principes are very strong units for the early game.

so, without knowing what happened, or even who your enemy is, it just sounds like you play MA Ermor like EA Ermor and completely forgot/ignored its undead capabilities. oh yeah and those S1D1 mages you can recruit anywhere are perfect for Nether Bolt/Dart spamming, which are very strong spells and as mentioned have a good chance of feebleminding its target(great vs enemy mages). other useful things you could have done is skelli spamming, your cap only mages have D2/3 so they can cast Raise Skeletons quite a lot before passing out from fatigue, your recruit everywhere D1 mages can only use the animate skeleton spell unless you forge them a booster(which isn't hard to do for MA Ermor).

heck, I'm surprised to see MA Ermor dying so soon, as its 1 of the strongest nation in MA. but well, it seems like a classic case of not knowing your nation's capabilities and not seeking enough information on them. if only you'd have looked for MA Ermor guides either on this forum or on the wiki you would have seen that MA Ermor is an undead power and found some very nice things to do with them.

but than again, this is a newbie game, and this is 1 thing that you learn by experience. you lost this game, now you learned about MA Ermor and what not to do in future games. learning from your own mistakes is the most powerful method of learning. so keep your head up high and get ready for more games to follow. learn from your mistakes and you'll become a better player, which will allow you to enjoy this wonderful game even more.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Hush you, he's not dead yet.

More seriously, great post.

Edited to add: looking at the graphs, this is the Year of Surprise Attacks. Seriously, check Man out as well. (To be fair, he DID just cast an enchantment that everyone but especially me and the monkeys want out of the way and/or cast by ourselves.)

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

If anyone has any items that will let me get into the water (water breathing rings, barrels of air, etc.) please let me know. I would be willing to trade for them. The squishy fishies are making me feel insecure.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Oh, just to let you all know, it's official -- I won, you lost.

Bogus is dead! I am the victor!

You can all continue playing your pointless game. I have achieved the secret victory condition and won!

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

which proves your ultimate inexperience. a dead Bogus is a useless Bogus, a charmed Bogus on the other hand would have really helped you, being a tough thug in his own right, or as a very solid addition to your army. the other guys in there aren't too shabby either, you would have greatly benefited from having as many of them as you could in your army.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Congrats!

Blackguard: Shhhhh! - you are supposed to be pretending you are a noob in this game.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Everything but blood with his native mages and a single thistle mace actually. Starspawn get death, slave mages get nature.

Re: STACKERS, newbie game, (started)
 

Has Ermor dropped out? Can we set Ermor to AI? Quicker turns and AI is better than stale turns.